SeattlePioneer

Hello Baden P, Don't be coy!

Hello Abel, The Chief Seattle Council is indeed fortunate to be well run and solvent these days. That is NOT something I take for granted. And from time to time I take a Scouting tour across the country, visiting the websites of random councils and the districts in them. All too often I see the kinds of problems and issues you describe, particularly districts with no functioning committee and perhaps just a District Executive listed but no committee members at all. Frankly, the my own district has been unwinding over a number of years, with old hands gradually departing and few new volunteers found to work at the district level. Weak or non existent district committees tend to mean failing units, since only strong units tend to survive and those down on their luck collapse rather than being nurtured back to health by volunteers who will help get things going again. Unfortunately, Abel's district without district leaders leading to an absence of units is just the kind of thing I fear happening.

> Yes, I think it is about cheerful service to others. >

>"My hope and aim is to find a Tiger Cub Partner who will get trained and will act as the Den Leader, coordinating the shared leadership method with other parents in the den.">>"My hope and aim is to find a Tiger Cub Partner who will get trained and will act as the Den Leader, coordinating the shared leadership method with other parents in the den."> We recruited two Tiger Cubs in the spring, signed up another over the summer ( the father participated in my Tiger Twilight camp in July, and this was the person who agreed to lead the next meeting.) and we recruited eight and counting Tiger Cub with our fall recruiting. I agree that having a generous number of Tiger Cubs makes it a lot more likely that you will find a competent and willing leader. "Did you use "Denners" in your program, and if so, how?"

Hello Scout Nut, > Try deciding not to bother with the burden of rechartering and see how far you get. Most districts offering Cub Scout day camps require packs that participate to provide volunteers as staff. It's REQUIRED. I suppose Troops may discover a need for district level volunteers when they need an Eagle Board of Review and there are no volunteers to provide one. But compelling units to provide volunteers to the district is not my preferred method. My preferred method is to make the case to unit leaders that they need to CHOOSE to help make the district work. That effective district services and program are useful to their own unit and necessary for Scouting as a whole. Weak units tend to need and use district services, but have limited resources to contribute. Strong units like those Oak Tree describes have ample resources, limited need for district services and often see no reason why they should bother to lend resources to make the district work. That is the attitude I would like to change. I would like to see those strong units especially see that they have a role in making the district work effectively and that they should help find leaders in their units who can help do so. As District Membership Chair, we have strong Cub Scout Packs with ample leadership resources who lean entirely on the district and District Executive to organize their recruiting nights. They ought to have a committee responsible for learning how to plan their recruiting program and carrying it out as well, and ought to help a weaker pack or two with organizing recruiting nights as well, in my opinion.

So I'm Unit Commsissioner for a pack that has a brand new Committee Chair and a brand new Cubmaster. I figured the new CC might benefit from a heads up on doing rechartering and perhaps might need some help in getting the new Cubmaster signed up and a new Tiger Cub Den started after the recent recruiting night. So I e-mail him on those topics. He replied that he already had someone to do the rechartering, that the new Cubmaster had already completed the adult leader application and that he had recruited last year's Tiger Cub Den Leader to serve again this year. How 'bout 'that? He's doing better as a brand new CC than my pack is with experienced leaders! He's a take charge business executive person by profession, which is why I thought he would be great as a CC. That looks like it's going to work out really well. At our recruiting night both he as CC and the new Cubmaster turned out fully uniformed.

Hello Scout Nut, Thanks for going in to more detail on your methods of leading your Tiger Cub Dens. I like the idea of letting parents pick the achievements they want to lead. In general I like the idea of people picking things to do that they want to do or are good at doing. Your method accommodates that aim. My hope and aim is to find a Tiger Cub Partner who will get trained and will act as the Den Leader, coordinating the shared leadership method with other parents in the den. And that may prove to be practical. > Of course the Tiger Cub Handbook recommends that each Tiger Cub Partner run a month of meetings and activities. But that very likely sounds intimidating to a lot of parents, so your method of Tiger Cub Parents taking charge of a single meeting sounds more realistic for a lot of parents. The who are more able might take charge of a month of activities or do multiple meetings over time as you suggest. > I didn't do this during the first den meeting. Instead I asked for parents willing to lead a meeting or meetings, and this was the subject of an e-mail to those who agreed to lead meetings explaining the methods of Tiger Cub Den leadership. Thank you for taking the time to explain your methods in more detail. That's very helpful and gives me some useful methods to consider for the future. Also Scout Nut, Did you use "Denners" in your program, and if so, how? That's another part of the program I haven't used to date, but would like to figure out how to make it work. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Scout Nut, I appreciate your comments, but they just don't strike me as being especially workable. I don't have the opportunity of consulting with a committee of Tiger Cub partners to decide on the program. There simply isn't the opportunity to do so, nor do the Tiger Cub partners have the experience with the program nor the interest in designing the program --- as far as I can see, so far. So far, I have one Tiger Cub Partner new to the program and another parent of a Bear Cub interested in helping with the Tiger Cub program. What seems practical to me is to provide them with some structure and program for the next couple of den meetings and see what they can do about leading the meetings. We've had an excellent recruiting night and a good 1st den meeting so far, and we're having the 1G Go see it hike tomorrow: 1G Go to a library, historical society, museum, old farm, or historical building or visit an older person in your community. Discover how family life was the same and how it was different many years ago. The structure I have planned for the next den meeting is 2D Practice the Pledge of Allegiance with your den, and participate in a den or pack flag ceremony. using this achievement for an opening ceremony and learning the Cub Scout salute as a Bobcat requirement. 1D Make a family scrapbook. and 1F Think of one chore you can do with your adult partner. Complete it together. Tiger Cubs and partners will have the 1F achievement described, and will have time to decide on a chore to do with their Tiger Cub partner, and will be invited to tell the den what their chore will be as a "sharing" activity. Several of the Bobcat requirements will be covered, including story telling to complete some of the difficult #8 Bobcat requirements. My aim here is to provide the structure and planning for the meeting for the Tiger Cub Partner to use in planning how to carry out that program content. I think that should be a help to the person getting started leading meetings. I share the reservations drmbear expresses in his post that new Tiger Cub parents are likely to have as program leaders: > By providing some structure and program content, my aim is to maximize the likelihood of potential new leaders to understand how to make the program work, with the expectation that they will then be ready to start making their own plans for the rest of the year. In the past I've had good success with the program, but haven't made the shared leadership concept work. This year, making that work is one of my primary aims and I've just described the methods I'm planning to use to try to make that work. Drmbear's comments and suggestions are very close to my own in how to begin making the program work for parents new to Cub Scouts. With fourteen years of experience running the Tiger Cub program, your experience dwarfs mine. It may well be that you have developed methods that allow you to do things as you describe. But if so, I don't understand what your methods are in detail or how to make them work.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Except for the fact that the Scout is a short tenured 2nd year Webelo, I'd seriously consider advising the parent to shape up or ship out. I might do that anyway. I don't know that I'd want to burden a Scout Troop with that parent.

> Actually what is needed is a concerted political campaign by a variety of nonprofit groups to reverse this kind of policy. Schools are community organizations and they have certain responsibilities to aid community organizations in my book.

Perhaps it's worth remembering where the term "Scouts" came from

> Yes, I believe that's the EXACT legal situation. As I understand it, BSA has zero legal obligation to report such allegations. Parents are free to report whatever they wish. When all this finger pointing at BSA is going on, let's keep those facts in mind.

I still remember seeing "Don't blame me, I voted DEMOCRATIC" bumper stickers during the 1977-1979 period.

Hello Scout Nut, I don't think the Tiger Cub program is simple at all. Indeed, it's fairly complex. A parental grab bag of program is the kind of thing that leads to a failed Tiger Cub Den in my opinion. > I don't hate the Program Helps type approach. Indeed I hand it out to program leaders and look through it myself for program ideas. But I can do BETTER than a one size fits all program. And the Program Helps approach IS carefully planned. It belies your claim that the random grab bag parents will put together left to themselves is a substitute for planning. I'm working on identifying a new Tiger Cub Den Leader and making the Shared Leadership concept work. It seems to me that the reason for having a Den Leader is to plan a road map of the program so that the Bobcat and Tiger Cub Badges can be earned as part of a fun program. Once that road map is in place, I would suppose it would be a lot easier for parents to carry out parts of it at meetings and Go See Its as part of the Shared Leadership concept. That's the theory I am testing this year anyway. But if your methods work for you, help yourself. You haven't actually said what practical experience you have had with the Tiger Cub program. In addition to running Tiger Cub Programs for a year in two different packs, I describe my other efforts to promote effective Tiger Cub programs on the district and council level in a post earlier in this thread. My personal experience is that the program is a challenge to make work well, and that too often Tiger Cub Dens fail because pack leaders are unable to make them work. I had that happen in my own pack three years ago.

> That is the CURRENT Youth Protection Policy. It didn't apply until the past few years. > Be my guest and convict people of such crimes --- if you have the evidence. The evidence can be tough to come by. By contrast, an employee can usually be fired for any reason or no reason at all. Two drastically different standards of evidence. WHY don't people understand such things?

I use a flyer campaign, but it's really not an especially effective recruiting tool. The MOST effective recruiting method I've found is a school visit. I get permission to visit the school cafeteria during lunch and invite boys to our recruiting night directly --- the day of the event or the day before, if I'm recruiting at a second school. I wear a uniform and carry a backpack and "Join Cub Scouts" flag, like a den flag. I also carry an example of the model rockets boys will build and the rocket launcher used to launch them to show boys. I sell Cub Scout activities. I talk to each group of boys while they are eating: "Do you like to go hiking and camping? Would you like to shoot BB guns and bows and arrows? Would you like to come to our Cub Scout meeting tonight and make model rockets and shoot them to see whose rocket will go the highest and farthest?"

> Says who? The actors in this kind of drama are the PARENTS. In recent years, a few child protection advocates such as physicians, have been mandated to report reasonable suspicion of child molestation to police. That did not include BSA decades ago, and still does not include BSA today. BSA did not prevent parents from filing complaints with police, and parents are the people who are the responsible actors in this kind of drama, I suggest.

> The alleged perp doesn't get his name printed in the paper, but the paper smears the name of BSA generously over the paper, when BSA did NOTHING wrong. In recent years, state legislatures have required a variety of child care advocates to report to the police instances in which there is credible evidence of child abuse. Fine. But as far as I know, that DOES NOT include BSA, it's employees or volunteers. So why are newspapers pointing with alarm when BSA used its discretion not to report alleged incidents? A physician observing injuries on a child can make a report of those injuries and turn it over to the police. BSA at best usually has unsworn comments by a youth of some conduct, which people are not trained to record in a systematic way and which is merely hear say. And of course most of these allegations occurred decades ago, probably before ANYONE was mandated to make reports. I see these as biased and vicious media attacks on BSA. Thoughtless and vile yellow journalism.

Hello MarinesWife, Did people sign up for pack meetings like other meetings? It seems like you need to structure meeting and to have a plan for people to carry out. Did you supply that structure or deal with it some other way? What about Go See Its? What about leadership of the den this year? (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Reading 5yearscouter's post reinforces my theory that there ought to be a position as Troop Nag and Pack Nag, and training in this increasingly essential art form.

> I suggest that BSA generally acted reasonably to protect children. BSA is not a police force and isn't in the law enforcement business. Generally speaking, all BSA officials might have to go on are unproven allegations, many times the children and parents involve do not want to file complaints with the police that have a chance of being investigated effectively. The REAL people responsible for letting such issues continue are parents who choose not to file complaints withe the police and probably don't want BSA filing such complaints either. And too often parents are failing to pay sufficient critical attention to their children and with whom they are associating. Even when complaints are filed, very likely police often have a difficult time accumulating evidence that could result in a successful prosecution. In short, I see BSA as generally being a responsible organization about such issues, but with no real effective role for preventing such problems. What BSA often did when reasonable suspicion of bad conduct by volunteers was made was to kick people out as leaders and do their best to keep them out. Since there is generally only going to be unproven suspicions about what might have happened, that seems like reasonable actions for BSA to take. I'm also glad to support the new YPT policies. I hope they can improve on the old status quo. But without parents who are aware and proactive, I imagine many of the same problems will continue to occur one way or another. You are just dealing with a highly motivated population of people with a particular sexual orientation. We have seen how motivated such populations can be in getting what they want when not effectively opposed.

Arguments made by REAL pirates on "talk like a pirate" day" http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Piracy-defendants-blame-Navy-FBI-for-deaths-3877099.php

I might add to my post above that if Oak Tree wants to read through the "Was I too BOLD" thread he can read an account of how a Unit Commissioner helped revitalize a failing Cub Scout pack.... twice.

> DO you organize your own unit Cub Scout Day Camp and Cub O'ree? Why not? Saying you COULD do it is quite different from actually doing it. Does your pack participate in the popcorn sale? Use council camps or training? Unfortunately, this sounds like the self satisfied comments of someone blessed by being in a strong unit who doesn't care a fig about anyone else. There are strong units that manage very well decade after decade. Mostly they are in upper income areas and draw from well educated, intelligent families. If that's our intended membership, we can certainly dispense with lot of Scouting activities --- and probably about 3/4s of our membership. Four years ago I undertook to rebuild a Cub Pack in a poor area that was down to a single boy. We still depend on the Cub Scout Day Camp, Cub Scout Marble Tournament and Cub Scout Bowling tournament as pack activities we use the popcorn sale as our major fund raiser --- families can get their Cub Scout expenses down to $0.00 if they want to sell popcorn and most get at least a free membership. We started out using the District Pinewood Derby that first year. I took district and council training in a variety of different subjects, and attended Cub Scout Roundtable --- the past two years leading those Roundtables myself. If I weren't the district Membership Chair I'd be depending on the District Membership Chair to help with recruiting ---indeed the DE WAS at our recruiting night September 12th and help sign people in so we would have a record of who attended. You should appreciate of how fortunate you and your units are. Relatively few are in that position.

The simple fact is that there is a widespread disagreement about the propriety of homosexuality. BSA has a clear position on the issue. A week ago I was asked about homosexual parents joining Cub Scouts with their son --- the pack I work with and for which I was doing recruiting. I pointed out that homosexual parents and boys were welcome to join, but that parents should expect not to be asked to become leaders. If you don't like that policy --- don't join. It's as simple as that. The established fact is that Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts has a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to maintain its values. Please respect our constitutional liberties just as homosexuals expect others to respect their rights.