SeattlePioneer

I had a parent ten years ago who told me he was an atheist and would not sign the BSA application. He served as the defactor Committee Chair all during the rtime his son was in Cub Scouts. His son never entered Boy Scouts because the parent (and perhaps the boy?) felt that the atheist issue would likely come up in Boy Scouts and it was not an issue with which he wanted to be confronted. Too bad --- nice parent. But perhaps that was for the best.

Maybe he can take his buddies to the new troop...

< If a Scout or adult leader got up and announced they were an atheist, I might have to take action on that. I had a young Cub Scout do that once, and I ignored it.

< >> Ummm.... two teams of three --- good to go! In my experience, boys LOVE games and competitions. The key is to make them simple and fun, so that winning and losing is not a big deal. A loss is just an opportunity to try the game again. For example --- our Pinewood Derby has boys choosing continuously who they will race against. The winner of each heat wins a sticker they can put on their car or their Pinewood Derby Driver's License. They probably run three heats/minute. MANY Pinewood Derbies are WAY too formal in my opinion, with boys waiting around for infrequent opportunities to race.

<> I wonder how the people who taught the first WB21C classes qualified? Heh, heh!

<> A Scout is Thrifty. If people aren't using a major asset much, why keep it?

<<~~2.They don’t wear their uniforms. Last week the DL told the boys that the CM was going to do a uniform inspection not a single Cub was in uniform. I heard one boy tell his dad that he wasn’t going to wear that “monkey suitâ€Â.>> They ARE in uniform. Just not the Cub Scout uniform. There are many ways boys can learn. One way is by experience. Right now, they see no reason to be IN a Cub Scout uniform, and good reasons NOT to be in a Cub Scout uniform. I like the idea of inviting them to attend your troop meeting, and perhaps they could do a uniform inspection of the Boy Scouts. Perhaps one patrol good be a full, resplendent uniforms, and another in dirty cast offs with untucked shirts and such. The boys need to decide for themselves that they want to be in uniform, in my view.

The #1 thing I'd suggest for a first pack meeting would be an exciting game for boys to play. For December we have the dens make a Christmas "sleigh" from a cardboard box and decorate it. For the December Pack meeting, we have relay races with each boy in a den taking turns in the sleigh while the other boys pull each boy around the race course. It's a barrel of laughs! Or Google "Cub Scout Games" and find one that looks like fun to you.

There are liberals who are unhappy with the values of Scouting and are probably well advised not to join BSA. Similarly, there are conservatives who are unhappy with the values promoted by the Girl Scouts and are probably well advised not to join GSUSA. A lot of that may depend on the leadership of local units, too. The bottom line is that these are voluntary groups with value systems they like and cultivate in youth. If you aren't comfortable with the values of such a group, DON'T JOIN. Personally, I'm not interested in supporting Girl Scouts. When I'm doing recruiting for Cub Scouts, from time to time I encounter people opposed to elements of the BSA program. I answer any questions people have about such policies, and if they don't agree with BSA values, GO WITH GOD! as far as I'm concerned. We aren't all going to agree with each other.

<< But national says I can not participate because I can not check the "theist" box... and that chaps my hide.>> Well, you CAN check the box if you wish to do so. If you have an hour or a day when you are feeling reverent about SOMETHING in the universe, I'd make a point of checking the box at that time. Frankly, my only concern is someone who just HAS to publicly announce "I'm AN ATHEIST" at a Scout function. If you can contain that impulse and find an instant in time when you can check the box, I'd be glad to have you. If need be, I can look up a simple Scouting prayer to lead at Scout activity if I can't find someone better to do the task. I tell Cub Scouts that "Duty to God" means 1) following the religious practices of your family and 2) respecting the religious traditions of other families. My aim is to support the religious faith and training of Scouts and Scouters, pretty much whatever that is. Thirty years as an adult leader and that seems to work pretty well as an approach for me. If an adult felt the need to take the initiative to undermine the religious faith of a boy, we'd have a bone to pick.

I don't have experience with this. But just off the cuff, can they be sewed on?

You can always donate leftover money to your chartered organization or council. But in general my aim is to spend money on the boys who earned it. Sounds like that might not be easy top do with your legacy funding. Sounds like your aim is to find new boys --- certainly the best option. Do you have a Cub Pack or two that you get boys from? What other recruiting methods do you use, and why are you having this problem? I targeted a Scout Troop I was interested in helping build more membership 7+ years ago. I've done that by rebuilding the Cub Pack that can feed boys to the troop. The pack was down to one boy, and today we have 23, and are sending boys to two troops. Not easy though!

Time will tell whether my suggestion to expel the boys was a good suggestion. I'd be interested in getting updates on what is done and how it works out.

<< We didn't get any immediate recruits >> Unfortunately, recruiting new Boy Scouts other than through Cub Scouts is tough. The school visits I described earlier are the best way to make contact with interested boys in my experience. The best attended Boy Scout recruiting event I ever staged was "Computer Game Night"! We probably had twenty NEW BOYS attend that we'd never seen before! Unfortunately, we never saw any of them AGAIN, either!

<< [h=1]Employer Identification Number[/h] Every organization must have an employer identification number (EIN), even if it will not have employees. The EIN is a unique number that identifies the organization to the Internal Revenue Service.>> That's from the IRS website. < >> MORE bad information from Jblake, who characteristically provides misinformation. You don;t have to be "legally established as a business." And anyone can get an EIN, and indeed you can get one a day if you wish.

When I wanted to build closer relations with a troop as a Pack leader, I had the District Commissioner appoint me as the Unit Commissioner for the Troop. That way I had a good reason to visit troop commitytee meetings and activities and see what was going on and get to know troop leaders and the problems of the troop. That worked like a charm! You could e-mail your District Commissioner with that request, or your District Executive. You could also call or e-mail troopp leaders and asked to be invited to their troop committee meetings. I think you are being very smart to be concerned about keeping a neighboring troop strong!

< >> Once again we have Jblake making wildly exaggerated statements. Checking accounts aren't "under" an EIN. Our pack needed an EIN to open a checking account, but it's not necessary to change EINs if you change a CO. An EIN is simply a way for the government to identify organizations. They can be used as a tool to investigate organizations, and EINs may be needed to perform particular business functions, such as reporting taxes if you have employees. But filing for an EIN pretty much means "Here we are!" By itself it doesn't mean much. Our pack had its own EIN. A year ago we transferred from a Catholic parish to a Kiwanis club as CO. As a result of this thread, I'm going to ask the Kiwanis if they'll let us use their EIN. But I see no need to change the EIN the bank has on file for our checking account. The real bottom line is that the IRS doesn't care about auditing Cub Scout Pack and Boy Scout Troops. I'm not a tax lawyer, and I'm not about to consult one for issues that are of no practical importance to a Cub Scout Pack. Until BSA starts providing detailed guidance on what units need to do, I see little reason to worry much about it. In Cub Scouts, we "do our best." That seems to suffice these days. +

I'd seriously consider not registering the boy with the pack for another year, and to suspend them now until the end of the year. I wouldn't send the family to another pack, unless you are at swords point with a pack for some reason. I don't believe in making Scouting unreasonably burdensome for volunteers, or keeping boys who are unable to keep the Cub Scout promise and law in some reasonable fashion. The general rule is that one troublesome boy can drive five good boys out of Scouting.

< >> Now that Obama's IRS has finished going after Republicans, no doubt they will be targeting Cub Scout packs next.... Has anyone heard of a Cub Scout Pack or Boy Scout Troop being audited by the IRS?

< What's this got to do with setting a good example for our boys when it comes to teaching the boys to honor the laws of our country whether we agree with them or not. Most local health departments have extensive rules so that they can point to violations should any ordinary activity go bad. And as long as nothing is offered for sale, one can have all the potlucks they wish without any governmental interference, but If one were to look closely at the health laws most don't apply to these kinds of setting so the food police aren't going to show up at your Blue Gold and haul the CC off in cuffs. A number of years back they tried to step in and regulate church potlucks and such. There was such an uproar the rescinded that effort before it even got off the ground. Never mess with the church ladies. >> Oh, I'll bet your local health department has rules reuqiring licenses and permits even if you give away food. You just ignore those rules because you find it convenient to do so and the health department isn't likely to care unless someone makes a complaint or problems are encountered. Similarly, you thunder about "fraud" but I doubt you even know what it means. You are behaving like a pious blowhard with these exagerated statements and claims, in my opinion. The fact is you have NO expert knowledge of how government organizations like the IRS behave with respect to small groups like Scout units. You are just guessing and supposing how they act because it suits your biases. Get a grip.

<> Oh, I think that the human inclination to religion is satisfied in lotas of ways, including by lot of self proclaimed atheists. As the thread title indicates, I think that many people's use of "humanism" qualifies as a religion and should be treated as one by the courts. The dogmatism many people have about science qualifies science as a religion, despite the fact that many scientists might disagree. The Roman Senate often declared their more succesful emperors to be Gods. The Catholic Church has declared many people to be Saints, which is a type of God or demi God as far as I'm concerned. Similarly, the United States Congress has declared people to be national heroes, such as George Washington and ML King Junior---- surely the equivalent of the Roman Senate declaring emperors to be gods. And then there is environmentalism and Earth Day --- surely a modern religion. Or an old religion, since nature worship is one of the oldest of religions. I laugh at the effort of Federal Courts to exclude Christianity from the public square which makes the public square available to be occupied by the new state religions of the left described above. Then there is the state religion of worshiping the constitution and the Federal Courts who are the Popes and Bishops interpreting the Bible of that state religion. In short, you don't need a super natural being to have a religion. What you need are people, objects or ideas that have been deified and which are treated in a reverent manner. What we have in fact are new state religions that the powers that be want to replace the faiths of our Fathers. And they are well along to doing just that.

<< He also would say, one can't always tell who the biggest crook is because when their mouths move they are all lying. Stosh>> Winston Churchill once opined that "The Sermon on the Mount is the last word in personal ethics, but it's not the basis on which ministers of government are given their portfolios." If all politicians lie, perhaps people should think about why that's true. I suggest there are two reasons: 1. Sometimes the truth just wont do. Suppose you are President and telling the truth about an incident would start a war that could be avoided if you lie. What you lie to save the peace? 2. Politics and government power can be and often is used to manufacture the "truth." The power to write history and current events in ways that carry out your political agenda is one of the enormously attract perquisites of political power. And if you have that power, it may be pretty hard to know what the absolute truth may be in many situations.

I was once questioned by my District Chair about my religious beliefs. "Do you believe in God" "Yes" "Do you belong to a church?" "No." "Would you like to belong to my church?" "No" That's really my only experience in having my religious bona fides examined for Scouting fitness. Absent someone volunteering that they are an atheist, I would personally avoid making such inquiries myself.

< To borrow a construction from SeattlePioneer... >> Heh, heh! I like it!

< Stosh>> Very piously put. So, do all the Scouts and adults who handle food have food handler permits in your unit and do your obtain health department permits before serving food? Just for openers. Most local health departments have extensive rules so that they can point to violations should any ordinary activity go bad. And that applies to the extensive roster of other government organizations as well. <> And I again suggest that your comment above is a WILD exageration. You are fear mongering, and that is not acting in a Scout like manner. Are you a Certified Public Accountant or have other professional tax accounting experience that justifies you making the claims and assertions you make, or are you simply a layman like I am, expressing your own inexpert opinions? Self righteousness is one of the risks of Scouters and you see it rather often on these boards.