SeattlePioneer

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/02/girls-scouts-cookies-target-reading-events-weekly-retail-sales-new-kiehls-store.html

Hello Beavah, I have a good deal of background in the sujects of the "American Labor" merit badge, and I was just looking over those requirements tonight. Wow! I could turn that into a 5 credit college course if I had a mind to do so! How much to require is the eternal question with merit badges. My bias is to look for the standards set by the council itself at summer camp. I would characterize those standards as being an introduction to the subject, not mastery of it in most cases. If a Scout were interested in doing or learning more, I'd be glad to accommodate him. Do you find that kind of standard unreasonable or hopelessly slack?

Shucks. Nobody is buying my popcorn! Sales are lousy.

> Thank you Kudu, that's very kind. Frankly I'd rather find areas of agreement with you than be a logger heads. Perhaps we will be able to do more of that.

> BSA Training continues to put a premium on boy leadership in Boy Scouts. If Kudus criticisms were really justified, we would see Scout training that pushed troops into being parent led and controlled just as Cub Scout Packs are adult led. But we don't. There is room to be critical of National leadership and decisions, and frankly I'd have more fun taking pot shots at National than defending them! Just as Two Cubs suggests, the differences Kudu claims are so fundamental aren't, in my opinion. The range of Boy Scout troop programs is quite wide. Some are boy led, others are parent led. Some are Eagle mills. Some go on expensive high adventure camps, others stay near home. Shucks--- if a bunch of parents want to organize a troop to do soccer 'n Scouting, no one is going to get in their way. We have a lot of choices on what kind of program we join or run. Those choices are a lot more significant than the rather trivial issues that Kudu raises, in my opinion. I don't see Kudu complaining that he isn't PERMITTED to run a quality program, more or less the way he would like. What he seems to complain about is that other troops aren't REQUIRED to adopt the program he favors. I don't see that as being desireable or reasonable.

> Well, I think Kudu's analysis is wrong here. It's not that these children kept their balls, but rather that they were just in the process of developing them. I would characterize the mistake Kudu describes as the missplaced use of parental power when it's just not appropriate. It might be appropriate for a stubborn four year old but not appropriate for a 4th or 5th grader. I can't say I have observed this kind of error in quite such dramatic terms in Cub Scouting itself, but variations of it are common enough in both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. The most commen example I think is the parent who punishes a boy by refusing to allow him to go to a Scout meeting or activity. That is the real essence of the drama Kudu relates in his anecdote. The even more fundamental error is the parent who refuses to let a boy grow up, take charge of his life and make mistakes. Children of Cub Scout age aren't usually subject to that mistake by parents as much, because the the revolution of adolesence is not yet upon them. Adults are closer to gods for Cub Scout age children in terms of size and wisdom. Children that age aren't really ready to assert real independence by and large. Boy Scouts is about how to take advantage of that independence and channel it in positive ways rather than have it become destructive rebellion. And it's quite common for Boy Scout Troops to fail to do that job, often because parents don't want to let go, or don't understand the program just as Kudu suggests. We see posts and threads where that happens in a wide variety of ways all the time. Therefore I might suggest that Cub Scouts does a more reliable job of providing an appropriate program for children as it's actually delivered than does Boy Scouts. Cub Scouts is DESIGNED to be an adult led program (Webelos on the cusp of change). So you can't go wrong with Cub Scouts on that issue, by and large! The concept of boy leadership for Boy Scouts is a much subtler concept, and there are plenty of parents and Scoutmasters who don't understand it or don't want to do it. And while we're at it: In my opinion the idea that Scouting is a program for youth is oversold. Scouting is also a program to coach parents in how to be loving and effective parents, although we don't talk about that very much. I see angry and resentful children come into Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and often parents don't have a clue as to how to deal with such children. If they stay in Scouting a year or two very often both the parent and child figure out better ways to do things. I have a Cub Scout now who has improved hugely in a couple of years. But I don't think you can coach parents too directly on such things. You have to let parents observe and gradually understand and experiment with better methods over time. If parents don't trust you to take their boys to summer camp, they probably aint going. Such fears may be honest or they may be contrived. Sometimes the fears that a youth is too immature are correct. But the parent is still the protector of their child, and I respect that, right or wrong. And if Webelos parents don't trust you to be the Scoutmaster for their children, they are probably going elsewhere. I suspect those Webelos Dens Kudu has had a hard time recruiting may not quite trust him or his program with their children. Perhaps Kudu's program IS more suitable for those 6th and 7th graders than for boys not yet out of 5th grade. If so, it may be a better program because of it, although not the best troop for Webelos dens to join. Just speculation of course.

> I must have been asleep when that one was taught....

Interesting comments, NJ Cub Scouter! As I was reading them, it got me thinking that at our Blue and Gold dinner or another suitable opportunity, we should be asking Scoutmasters or perhaps SPLs, to come in and talk to Cub Scouts and parents about "The Promise of Boy Scouts," or whatever. Give the boys and parents a better idea of what is ahead, and why.

Hello Buffalo Skipper You raise an interesting question of how to avoid buying in to standards a SM might not like. As a SM myself from 1982-1987, I didn't place the priority on force feeding advancement as seems quite common these days. We had a monthly campout, and boys learned how to set up camp and cook and such on the campouts. 1st Class Scouts signed off requirements when asked, as did I and Assistant Scoutmasters. Sometimes we had specific skill training if that what the troop wanted to do. And when Scouts got their requirements signed off, they advanced to the next rank at their own speed. That was not "1st class in a year." It might take two or three years for a lot of Scouts. The Scout Merit Badge University was Scout Camp. In my troop, most of the learning was by doing, and at the pace the boy set for himself. I recall one boy vividly who was very afraid of water and didn't want to learn to swim. He had all his requirements for 1st Class except swimming for quite some time. At our last troop outing to a swimming pool, I remember him popping up beside me with a big grin on his face. He'd finally been motivated to take swimming lessons and had overcome his fears. We had quite a few boys who learned a lot over time. They were confronted all the time with oppotunities and incentives to learn. When the time was ripe, they often responded to those things. We didn't have a lot of Eagle Scouts. I made a particular effort to encourage boys to get to First Class, but after that, they needed to be fairly self motivated (or motivated by their parents) to achieve higher ranks. Maybe I was a BAD SCOUTMASTER!

I suspect that the model for MB Universities came from..... Scout camps. Personally, I would look to what Scout Camps do for an idea of the depth that a Merit Badge counselor should expect in terms of meeting skills. That usually aint very high. Of course we discuss this same thing when looking at the scoutcraft boys learn in the Trail to First Class (also taught at Scout camps to a similar depth of experience). But frankly, I don't worry about that too much. I see the signoff on skills as being an introduction to the skill rather than a mastery of the skill. And no, I wouldn't prohibit Merit Badge Universities. I see good people leading those classes doing their best to give boys an introduction to skills and hobbies the teachers often value highly themselves. A bicycling merit badge class at MBU ought to be enough for a boy to get started doing some of the required tours, beginning with his patrol or troop, and perhaps leading to a lifelong interest in cycling. I see it as a good start, and worthwhile for that reason.

Apparently he can't stop himself.

83 Eagle, As a Scoutmaster, I always thought boys who had come through Cub Scouts and earned AOL had greater maturity and self control than those who had not. Eagle 92, You are a shrewd observer of the needs of the program. Any Scout troop should be GLAD to have an Assistant Scoutmaster working to make Cub Scouting a quality program and assist Cub Packs. My bias would be towards volunteering with Scout Troops, but I work primarily with Cub Packs. A District Executive pointed out that "you can't have a youth program without YOUTH!" and about 85% of Boy Scouts were in Cub Scouts.

I attended our Council Co-ordinated Meeting last night. It's kind of a Roundtable for district Scouters, with a general session to update everyone on council issues and then breakout sessions for many district type committees. (Do other councils do this?) Anyway, when my District Exec and I were leaving, he pointed out one set of lights still burning, and said the District Advancement Committee always had the longest meeting. He said they review all the appeals for waivers and extensions of various requirements that go to the council, pass on lifesaving type of awards, referee disputes about Eagle Scout projects, requirements, time extensions and such. He said that the paperwork on such issues can be extensive, and can involve medical reports and such. All paperwork is duplicated for each Advancement Committee member to have available when deciding issues. I thought it might be useful to report on the diligent efforts of these volunteers. I had no idea how that got done or how diligently such issues were considered before that.

> Interesting comment, Brent Allen. My district had a collapse of the Cub Scout daycamp program last summer. The only reason the show went on was that just about every professional Scouter in the Council was at our daycamp presenting the program. Well, that's not going to happen twice. I've been working with the DE and a new Day Camp Director has been recruited who is very promising. But how do you go about recruiting the people you need to staff various activities? One idea that occurred to me was to ask Cub Scout Packs to take "ownership" of a program element both this year and perhaps in the future as well. Wwe already have one Cub Pack that staffs the shooting sports --- they recruit and train adults within the pack as needed, and show up when needed. My thought was to extend that to other program elements --- woodworking and cooking for example. Take advantage of our Pack organization and leadership structure. I often look for ways to take advantage of den, pack, patrol and troop leadership structures to get tasks done. I suspect that may be a leadership method I began to appreciate more at Wood Badge, where I was a part of a patrol and making that work. Indeed, as I think about it and another thread that is discussing what Scout Troops can do to get more Webelos to join their program, it occurs to me that our Day Camp Director might ask Scout Troops to take ownership of Day Camp program as well. A Scout Troop that puts on a great field sports or other program for Cub Scouts at Day Camp is going to show case their Troop to most of the Cub Scouts, parents and leaders in the district. That might be an incentive to get them to help with the program....

Hell John-in-KC, Hey, I'm a Cubmaster and you have ideas for Troop services for Cub Packs I hadn't thought of! You are correct, though. Smart Troops will not take chances with a relationship with a Cub Pack. Sucking up is the smart move!

1. Very skilled. I came from being trained by the Seattle Mountaineers climbing club in hiking, backpacking, rock and glacier climbing, cross country skiing and snowshoeing. I enjoyed rowboat cruising on my own, and had taken the Red Cross Mountaineering Oriented First Aid, which emphasizes realistic first aid problems with multiple casualties in a backcountry environment. In addition, I had been an Assistant Scoutmaster for a year and Scoutmaster for three years at that point. So learning Scoutcraft skills was not a major reason for taking Wood Badge. 2. Skills--- perhaps more than I realized. See below about dish washing. The major things I learned from Wood Badge were a) the emotional experience of living life in a patrol/troop environment b) the emotional experience of good ceremonies c) A significant deepening of my commitment to Scouting which contributes to my being an active Scouter 25 years after taking Wood Baqdge in 1985. a,b, and c made the experience very worthwhile for me. 3. Such tasks were shared by patrol members. The only issue about cleaning dishes I recall came pretty much the first day. We were instructed in the approved Boy Scout method of washing dishes by Wood Badge staff, which included washing cups and table ware first and pots and pans last, and a "three tub" method of dish washing. Some patrol members thought that was absurdly arbitrary. MAYBE it was. It was a good experience of how patrol members react to teaching by staff members and to "rules" that are laid down by authority exterior to the patrol. In thinking about it later, I decided that 1. It probably made sense to clean the cups and table ware first, before wash water got greasy and 2. People come from a diverse range of habits and experience. Some habits may not be very sanitary. If everyone is encouraged to adopt a uniform method which IS sanitary, it will avoid illness spread through poor dish washing practices. My conclusion is that there were good reasons for the rules we were taight by staff members, although they may not have been obvious right away. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Just to make a point, I would compare having FOS presentations at a Blue and Gold Dinner or ECOH (if done tastefully) with soliciting people to buy Scout popcorn on the way into a grocery store. That's "spam" too. Grocery stores permit it as a courtesy to a worthy cause, despite the fact that it may inconvenience or annoy some of their shoppers. And being courteous, kind, helpful and friendly is not a one way street. An Eagle Scout ought to have an interest in the welfare of their Scout council too, although probably that is not something cultivated by Scout Troops outside of the Order of the Arrow. As a matter of fact, I would respect an Eagle Scout who decided to do that FOS presentation himself at his own ECOH. An Eagle Scout should really recognize that it hasn't really been "all about him." The Eagle Scout has played a role in a program constructed on his behalf, which allowed him to excell. An Eagle Scout who recognized that and wanted to encourage those attending his ECOH would be a pretty mature guy.

> Personally, I wouldn't offer either option to a typical group of boys. And that's a major ande chronic weakness of Kudu's line of argument, which I've now seen repeated many times. It's the error of false alternatives. Perhaps if you have an experienced cowboy or animal trainer available to talk about runaway horses, it might be a good topic for a talk. But for the typical person who has no experience dealing with runaway horses, encouraging them to talk about something they know nothing about is just blowing smoke. You need a Scoutmaster and other program people with enough experience to discuss the program intelligently, and illustrate it out of their own experience. That's the kind of thing that will command the respect of boys, or anyone. Baden Powell's idea of "Scouting" came from his military experience and the military experience of elite infantry scouts of the day. Infantry methods and skills have evolved since 1910, but Kudu's ideas of scoutcraft have not. He is stuck in the past with the idea that scoutcraft must remain eternally fixed on such concept as stopping a charging horse. The military has adapted to changing times. Kudu has not. And that's the weakness of his argument. Now, it may be that in adapting the Scouting program to modern times a poor job has been done of that in some things. I'm perfectly willing to hear criticism of mistakes someone thinks may have been made. But the idea that Scouting must or should remain mired in the Scoutcraft of 1910 or 1916 or whatever is absurd.

I don't really think Blue and Gold dinners are especially good Cub Scout activities, by and large. But they are EXCELLENT vehicles for FOS presentations. And (purely by coincidence no doubt) they just happen to mostly occur during the FOS campaign! Shucks --- my district AIMS to have FOS presentations during B&G dinners, and usually get the cooperation of the Cub pack in doing so. Our pack B&G is Monday, and at the District Executive recently sent me his standard e-mail encouraging pack leaders to remind pack families that a B&G solicitaion will take place at the dinner, and to be prepared with a check or credit card to contribute if desired. The presenter is encouraged to make the pitch shortly after the dinner begins, which minimizes conflict with the later pack meeting. So around here, FOS presentations at B&G dinners is a well oiled and organized machine which which most packs aim to co-operate. FOS pitches at Troop Courts of Honor are also the norm. The idea that such social occasions should be free of such a solicitation is bogus, in my opinion. Frankly. I suspect there are tasteful ways to do a FOS presentation at and ECOH if some thought were applied to deciding how that could be done. I don't much care for the DE asking for permission at the last minute though. It is VERY LIKELY that a goodly part of the reason for the achievements of that new Eagle Scout is related to programs by the council and district over the years, from council camps to training. That needs to be supported to help others have the same opportunities. The real question for me would be how to do that in a suitable and tasteful manner. Just off the cuff, that might mean that the DE might present a quality slide show five minutes or so in length showing how council programs and activities help produce Eagle Scouts. I could imagine pictures from summer camp right through to pictures of the Eagle Board of Review (organized by districts). An invitation for those interested to help support these council activities to give other boys the same opportunities would be a natural. A smart DE might offer to create a quality slide show of that kind using pictures supplied by the troop and family of the Eagle Scout. It COULD be an inspirational centerpiece of the ECOH if done well. I disagree that an ECOH is or should be ONLY about the boy. The Eagle COH serves a variety of Scouting purposes, and I suggest that there are probably tasteful ways to include a FOS presentation as part of an ECOH. Of course, such things can be done badly, too, and that seems to be what the DE in question has done. But it doesn't have to be done badly I maintain.

Hello Thomas, Sounds like you have an excellent program. My inclination would be to accomodate Webelos Dens that want to form their own patrol. "New Scout Patrols" seem to be encouraged by BSA, and they can work fine. As a district membership chair, I'd encourage you to do recruiting among 5th grader in the spring. Some will already be 11 and others can be carried as visitors until June 1st when they will be eligible to join. You might work to combine recruiting efforts with Cub Scout packs that will be doing recruiting in the spring among elementary school children. As Cubmaster, I plan a joint recruiting night with the nearby troop in the spring. When I'm in elementary schools recruiting Cub Scouts, all I need to do is wait for later lunches for the 5th and perhaps 6th graders to come to lunch and I talk to them about joining Boy Scouts and hand them a flyer on the Boy Scout recruiting night. That recruits a good population at the right time to participate in spring and summer activities just when their uinterest in Boy Scouts is often peaking.

No, there is no requirement to go camping. But if you don't the troop will be dissolving before very long. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. I would suppose this is due to a lack of confidence and leadership by adults, who instill a culture of cancelaation rather than an attitude of success in Scouts. A camping trip requires preparation. If the preparation doesn't get done, cancellation follows. If it were me, I'd be offering to help the SPL and Patrol Leaders Council do the planning needed to do the next trip. Desitination. Activities. Meal Planning. Transportation planning Adult Leadership Figuring costs and collecting payment. Equipment. You might offer to work with the SPL and PLC in making a list of things and getting the planning done so the trip will go. That's where I'd be inclined to start, anyway. Usually burned out or inexperienced leaders are willing to move over to accomodate someone who wants to make the program work. And a troop that hasn't been camping in many months is a troop I would suppose to be on th edge of collapse. Your son may not be ready to abandon ship, but others will be. And when it happens more will follow. Of course I know nothin about the fundamentals of what is happening. The above suggestions are based on general experience and your situation could be quite different. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Ramblinrosey, Penalties can be dire if your uniform isn't correct:

Hello Crew 21, Your experience provides insight into the Wo Badge course I never had before. I became an Assistant Scoutmaster in 1981 at age 31 and Scoutmaster in 1982. I'd never been a Boy Scout --- my outdoor background came from through the Seattle Mountaineers outdoor club and hiking, backpacking, rock and glacier climbing, cross country skiing, rowboat cruising and so on. So when I took the week long Wood Badge course in 1985 (age 35) scoutcraft was not something I needed training. But the emotional experience of patrol and troop camping and issues was useful to me in particular. Our council has Wood Badge courses in the spring and fall, and a couple of sections each time I think. The courses fill up reliably fairly soon after they open is my understanding. I've never heard complaints from people taking Wood Badge about the course, although I don't hear people praising it especially either. I'm not impressed with the rather bitter complaints I read on this Board about Wood Badge either. That's just foreign to my experience, anyway. Thanks for your comments. They have been an education.

Baden P. I apologize for using some unfriendly language in my previous post, and I have revised it to eliminate it. Our council has Wood Badge courses in the spring and fall, and they fill up completely fairly rapidly. I haven't heard complaints about the course myself. The Outdoor leadership skill course is what does offer training in Scout skills. The course I took and later helped staff has a lot of highly skilled staffers (I was merely a Patrol Leader when staffing). Perhaps your district or council has a hard time offering quality training ----ours does not. I've been disappointed and unhappy with some Scout training myself. I've used plain language on course evaluation sheets when that has happened. In particular, one course was about teaching methods. It was billed as being required to staff at Wood Badge, and was a two day course. I was very unhappy with it ---- I thought it should be labeled as a class in "How to Do Power Point Presentations." I mention that so that you'll know that I can be unhappy with training too. I can appreciate your frustration with the Wood Badge course. Perhaps we both are on weak ground by trying to invoke the reputation of Baden Powell to support our opinions.

Baden P, The outdoor leader skills training is required for ALL Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmaster who wish to meet requirements for being "Trained," as I'm sure you know. I took it myself when I returned to Scouting in 2004, and I had been an Scoutmaster from 1982-1987. I think it's a useful effort to give Scout leaders an introduction to the Boy Scout outdoor program and safety rules. So the Outdoor Leadership training is NOT intended for Cub Scout Leaders. But Wood Badge IS intended for Cub Scout Leaders, among others. The Cubmaster of the pack for which I'm Commissioner too WoodBadge and completed his ticket four or five years ago. A part of his ticket was designing a very nice parent handbook for new Cub Scout Families, still in use today. You are welcome to your opinions about how you think Wood Badge should be conducted. But frankly, you don't run the program, and I don't find your arguments persuasive. The idea that Wood Badge is only legitimate if it conforms to what Baden Powel did at Gilwell or what BSA did in 1916 is just silly, in my opinion. And no, I'm not actually a worshiper of Baden Powell in any case. He was a pragmatist and I imagine he would be amused at those who would turn his programs into rituals to be endlessly replicated. However, it's my understanding that his original Wood Badge program aimed to instruct Scoutmasters without much in the way of outdoor skills in the basics of the scoutcraft of the day, and the methods of Scouting. That's what the outdoor leadership program does as well. YOU are welcome to consider it inadequate if you wish. I've staffed on the course and found it quite good myself. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)