SeattlePioneer

Hello Scout Nut, I had been organizing recruiting for this Cub Pack for several years. Usually the Cubmaster, a very nice guy was there alone in a huge church parish hall. We'd sign up a few boys, but without a real program they'd drift off again each year. I imagine the pack rechartered with several boys in December of the prvious years, but there was only on lone 1st year Webelos when I got there for a recuiting night in late October or early November. If we lost the pack, the neighboring Scout troop was probably going to fail eventually as well. So I took things in hand to see if I could make them work. 2 1/2 years later, I'm making progress. My aim is to leave the program in new hands at the end of the year, which looks practical. The Scoutmaster had been conserving money, so there was money to recharter and function OK. We've done the pop corn sale which is doing a good job of financing the program. I imagine the IH was happy to sign in the places indicated when the charter was due. I have made significant efforts to promote the pack in the parish, was some modest positive results. The sports program of the parish really has the hearts and minds of the young families. That's been difficult to compete with. >"The church athletic group leaders get credit for hours served on athletics in the church and parish school"> The parish school expects a quota of volunteer hours from the parents of students, and time spent leading the sports program as a coach or whatever counts on making the quota. That can probably be an issue for some families. Perhaps it marks Cub Scouts as a second class program to parish families ---hard to say.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

You have some excellent strategies there Beavah! The basic problem I have is that it's hard to be part of the parish when you aren't a member. Last year our TC Den Leader was a coach for the church's Kindergarten sports team as well. He tried, as COACH, to interest boys on his team to join his Den, but they didn't bite. This year our TC Den Leader is a church member and part of the church's youth program. He organized an excellent service project for the church. I also encountered a former Cubmaster after the Scout Sunday service. She may be interested in helping the pack out in some way. I did attend a meeting of the Dioces Scouting Committee a year or so ago, and the charismatic Deacon attended our District Roundtable to talk about Catholic Scouting. I'd invited unit leaders from our several parishes to attend, and several did. Unfortunately, that hasn't led to cooperation between Catholic Scout units I'd hoped to see. There is no communication between Catholic Scout units except when I've taken that initiative. Sad, too ---- I can't beleieve there aren't things weak Catholic Scout units can't learn from the strong ones. Anyway, you've probably noticed I'm spread pretty widely. I look for ideas that seem worth a try and see if they work. Some do, some don't. And Scout Nut, The Pack is chartered directly by the Parish. We ARE welcoming and recruiting from among the parish and parish school, but with marginal results. Having more church members as part of the pack would strengthen it a good deal, so I'm very interested in doing that.

Good ideas there qwaze! The best and smartest Cubmaster in our district attended Roundtables infrequently, but he had a committee member there every month, taking notes. Now he's Scoutmaster and probably going to be the best and brightest at that, too --- and doing the same thing. Your post reminds me that it's not uncommon for things to be announced at Roundtable and not very much elsewhere. A troop in our district put together an excellent "Haunted Hike" for Halloween which was excellent, but about the only notice of it was at Roundtable. As Roundtable Commissioner, your post suggested to me that I could be collecting those notices and e-mailing announcements out to my list of unit leaders. I hadn't thought of that before! I don't blame Smt for not being agreeable to changing the day of his troop meeting to attend RT. I wouldn't do that either. But having a prent attend can be worthwhile if your district has a respectable program. Anyway, thanks for the idea of having Roundtable E-mail Announcements going out to unit leaders. That's a good 'n.

Our Council has web pages for each district that can be accessed from the council web page. Here's one of the best: http://seattlebsa.org/Alpine In particular, I recommend reading the "Membership" web page, the "membership Updates" and the "Be A Scout" web page. This is the best (and only) Membership web page in our council, and I'm pea green with envy that someone else is doing such a great job and outclassing me.

In 2004 I was asked by the District Executive to be UC for a failing Cub Scout pack. The pack had lost their "Cubmaster who did everything" and no one even had a roster to help get the pack started in the fall. I had experience with Boy Scouts, but none with Cub Scouts. Well, I did my best to help get recruiting going for the fall, find adult leaders and set up a program for the year. We had a couple of rocky years getting things up to speed, but at the Blue and Gold the pack crossed 15 boys over to Boy Scouts. The program I helped gin up includes several pack events that are still being done each year. The pack now has a history of doing pretty much everything pretty well to excellently. I keep an eye out for weaknesses that need attention, but don't find much. The only real work I do is setting up the fall and spring recruiting. So I think people can learn on the job, although experience is best. If my services, however marginal, hadn't been available, probably no Commissioner would have been available to help. Would the parents have been able to get things going on their own? Could be --- or it might have resulted in a failed pack. I suggest there are worse things than a Commissioner who doesn't have experience in a particular flavor of Scouting.

> Perhaps that's true. Is it really that much of a problem? Ten days ago my Cub Pack did a service project for our Chartered Organization, and we had a hot dog roast as a social activity and snack to conclude the activity. As an added bonus, the Bear Cubs built the fire for roasting the hot dogs in a barbeque. Strictly speaking, the Guide to Safe Scouting discourages firebuilding until boys are Webelos. Being PERMITTED to do something is more important than REQUIRING boys to do things, in my opinion. It may be true that you could find an Eagle Scout or two who never built a fire. But that's a trivial criticism of the program to me since I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority of Eagle Scouts are at least modestly competent fire builders. Is it really important if Scouts aren't REQUIRED to build fires if the overwhelming majority DO build fires? Perhaps I could be branded as a terrible Cubmaster for allowing Bear Cubs to build a fire before they are Webelos. But it was a good teaching opportunity and I took it. So the boys got a start building fires sooner than they should have, strictly speaking. There still a lot of flexibility in the Scouting program that leaders can use wisely to construct a quality program.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello Eagle 92 > It seems to me that the democratic impulse is the bain of public education. The simple fact is that education is not at all democratic in nature. A few people can benefit enormously from an academic education, and a lot more aren't interested or able to benefit much at all. That is the reall bottom line that public education tries to hide or ignore. We do recognize that fact when it comes to higher education, where things are enormously stratified based on ability, achievement and interest. And the biggest problem is keeping the uneducable and those not interested in education in schools, where they corrupt the academic environment and suck up resources.

At present I have a Cub Scout pack chartered by Catholic Church that has minimal contact with the CO. Only two Cub Scouts are from families that are church members. What I would LIKE: I'd like the Cub Pack to be a part of the parish community like the church children's sports teams are. I would like to find ways of encouraging more parish families to join Cub Scouts. Plenty join the sports programs --- few Cub Scouts. I'd like a Charetered Organization Rep who 1) is a capable person 2) has a history of Scouting 3) will provide some ongoing leadership and oversight for the pack to help it keep going 4) will be a part of the church leadership structure 5) will develope a measure of expertise and commitment to doing the COR job properly 6) be a point person to help publicize the Cub Scout program within the parish and parish school.

> I notice that for once Kudu didn't conclude his post with his customary "Scouting from 300 feet." Now why is that? I suppose it's because Kudu's own standard isn't unsupervised patrol camping. His standard is having adult leaders within about 300 feet or more who can provide training and supervision as needed. His own standard conforms to the rules established by the Chief Scout Executive these days. And frankly, Scoutmaster's needn't ape the ideas of Baden Powell. The Chief Scout Executive's rules for Scouting permit a variety of different kinds of Boy Scout Programs, and parents and leaders are entitled to choose from among the programs offered in their area or start their own. If some families wish to run a unit that functions as an Eagle mill, they can do so. If they like Kudu's style of Boy Scouts, they can join his troop, which has substantial freedom to operate the way they wish. They can join another unit in their area with a program they like, or start their own. The one thing we can safely conclude is that in Boy Scouts, it's not Kudu's way or the highway. Despite the implications of Kudu's posts, Boy Scout troops are not bound by Kudu's bright ideas, the bright ideas of Baden Powell, or the bright ideas of the BSA Charter. They have substantial freedom to provide Boy Scouts as they choose and prefer.

Congratulations on a fine Commissioner program, UC Eagle!

Hello Engineer 61, The question is --- who are the public schools there to teach? There is a minority of students who can benefit hugely from a quality education. Perhaps the majority can benefit moderately from an academic education. And then there is a substantial minority who will benefit little or nothing. So --- who are you gonna teach? The approach of public education in recent decades has been to keep the substantial minority in school, occupying desks and sucking up resources, but accepting that they aren't going to learn much. The middle and upper class elite have created premium education for their children which excludes the rest. And that status quo also featured Democrats wringing the hands and rending their garments about the lack of achievement by those on the bottom while more or less ignoring them on purpose. THE NCLB law challenged that hypocrisy by placing some real power and force behind educating those at the bottom at the expense of stripping away resources from those at the top. It's the parents of those at the top who perceive a decline in educational standards, and they are correct. But the resources went to those on the bottom. But those parents of course don't care about real educational equality (which is an imaginary idea anyway). They breally only care about THEIR children ---not that that's much of a surprise. THE NCLB program stripped away the hypocrisy of the liberal middle class and upper class. But the parents at the bottom lack the skill and power to protect their children, so the upper and middle classes have been getting away with attacking NCLB. The real problem though is the idea of a "democratic" education system. Few things are ingherently LESS democratic than the ability to benefit from an academic education. You simply aren't going to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and there are a lot of sows ears attending public schools. We are willing to recognize that at the college and university level, where the majority are excluded and people are sorted rather harshly by their achievement, ability and motivation. But public schools aren't willing to do that and they inherently waste huge amounts of resources on the uneducable and those not interested or motivated to be educated.

Hello Beavah,

I'd do it. Sounds like a terrific activity for new Boy Scouts, and I'd surely want them to finish the hike by getting those requirements signed off. I would assess the risk of your being stripped of your Boy Scout position in a coloful ceremoney as "low." Seattle Pioneer

Hello Mom, I think Tiger Cubs are the most fun of any Scout group! They are reliably entertained by pretty much ANY activity.... for five minutes. Ten minutes tops! Last night the Tiger Cub and Bear Den Leaders co-operated to put on a terrific pizza baking activity! They bought raw dough at Trader Joes along with other pizza fixings. Cub Scouts rolled out the dough for their individual pizza, added sauce and topping and the pizzas were baked in the commercial ovens available at our church parish hall. The Cub Scouts had a great time and the parents pretty much all got involved helping with the activity as well. It's the kind of activity that both parents and Cub Scouts will remember for the rest of their lives. Me, too! The pizza was great, too!

> I usually find this kind of question on this board kind of naive. No harm in asking about where the chartered organization is for troubled unit is, of course, but the usual answer is "out to lunch." Most don't have expertise in Scouting and don't have much in the way of resources to offer to Scout units that need help. Most Chartered Organization Reps are ciphers who don't pay attention to units and don't respond to invitations to become informed or trained. My Cub Pack is chartered by a Catholic parish. It was down to a single boy without the parish getting involved. I atteneded a dioces Scouting Committee meeting to see if they had advice on how to make the pack more a part of the parish community. Nothin there, really. This is the second year we've done Scout Sunday with the church. We recently did a service project for the church, cleaning the sanctuary before the Sunday services, and invuited the Parish Priest and the church lay administrator to our Blue and Gold Dinner, but no one attended. I find getting a chartered orgainization more involved with the unit one of those "easier said than done" issues.

> Fun idea there, Lisabob! But the first example offered questions from public affairs to engineering students. You offered questions from public affairs to political science students. Perhaps it would be more comparable to offer you political science students a problem in integrating an equation or figuring the molar valence of a chmical compound! I recall a friend taking engineering clawsses saying that he had no objection to enginners being required to take classes in Social Science or the arts to "broaden" them, but he thought that arts and Social Science students would receive similar advantage if required to complete a year of regular college calculus as a graduation requirement....

You are probably right, Dlister. Not worth reactivating my membership in that case is the bottom line for me.

14 is an ideal number. After you get done telling the families that wont help out they are gone from the pack, you should have a manageable number of 6-8 or so. Unfortunately, the "Cubmaster who does everything" is a formular for a failed pack, as you can see now. You must be tough about getting the people you need to run the pack properly. Frankly, the really critical position is, or ought to be the Committee Chair. There no reason a Cubmaster can't delegate running pack meetings to an ACM if he desires to do so. I think someone needs to start making tough decisions about identifying the best person to fill various positions. If they refuse to do the job, either they agree to do something else that needs to be done or they are OUT.

Hello Old Grey Eagle, I liked your list of interpreter patches. I think my favorite was "English."

> I've had success with lashing together a flagpole and then pounding in stakes to set it up. When completed, Scout organize a flag ceremony and Pledge of Allegiance. This could be done teaching the round lashing and taught line hitch, or just the round lashing, leaving the taught line hitches in place. Building a fire and cooking a pancake and ham is popular at our Klondike Derby. And of course a contest to build a fire and see who can burn through a string is always popular.

> Heh, heh! 90% get lost in the wilderness and NEVER COME OUT?

Hello Dlister, That's an interesting link, Dlister, although I had to doctor it up a bit to get it to work. It appears that OA takes an expansive view of just what OA activities are: Here are some ways to get involved: Support a Cub Scout event with fun activities Host a council Cub Scout recruiting day Serve as a Den Chief for a local pack Promote Webelos-to-Scout transitions in your district Serve on a camp promotions team for Cub Scout summer activities http://northeast.oa-bsa.org/images/stories/cub_resources/cubscoutinvolvementpromo.pdf So perhaps if I'm doing one of these activities I would be entitled to wear the OA sash while I am Cubmaster too. My theory is that wearibng the sash at pack meetings and perhaps some other activities will help promote Boy Scouts to Cub Scouts and Cub Scout parents. It sounds like I would be justified wearing the sash at pack meetings since I'm promoting Cub Scouts during those meetings as a matter of course. From time to time I would be explaining the relationship between the sash, Boy Scouts and OA. Does that sound reasonable?

What it looks like on the other side of the fence.... I was a troop leader in a troop with an AS Scout. It created a variety of problems and misunderstandings between the Scout, Scout parent and troop leadership. While a high achieving professional, the Scout's father had fallen into the trap of being 'way overprotective. Frankly, when the Scout applied for Eagle, I would have assessed him as being about 2nd class in terms of skills and maturity. When the Scoutmaster declinedto approve his Scoutmaster conference for Life, the father (Committee Chair) went ahead and signed off on the approval. No need for a Board of Review. The Scoutmaster again refused to sign off on his Eagle SM conference as well. Frankly, I think that was entirely justified. The previous summer this Scout had been trapped in the summercamp shower house, unable to get his pants on (literally). On the last day of camp he refused to get out of his sleeping bag and get packed up until he was forcibly evicted from his sack. And his father signed off most of his merit badges for Eagle. Unless carefully explained and understood, things like that can cause resentment. And parents who are enmeshed with their child may not be the best judges of what's going on in such situations. In Webelos, it's the den leader that is supposed to sign off on requirements (I'm not sure if that's true for pins and such). Was it the den leader or the parents who signed off on all those pins? In the situation described above, the parent and Scout departed for a troop composed of AS Scouts. Probably a good thing. And it's evidence that parents need to be careful in dealing with troop leaders too, or you may replicate the problems and misunderstandings in Boy Scouts.

No Klingon or Elvish?

When I was Scoutmaster (1982-1987) troop OA members wore their sash at troop courts of honor. It helped make OA membership visible. Perhaps that troop custom violated OA rules at the time. I don't recall such a restriction being discussed as part of the Ordeal event. Now I'm hearing in this thread that wearing a sash at a regular Cub Scout Pack meeting would be frowned upon. Too bad ---wearing the sash at such events would help promote Boy Scouts and would be my main reason for reactiviting my OA membership. Probably not worth while with that restriction.