SeattlePioneer

Hello HICO, Your post illustrates the reasons why passing on a lot of gossip to a new Troop shouldn't be necessary. Ask the boy and his parents what was going on and they will tell you, even if in a biased way. I might tell the boy and family that I will be contacting the previous troop leaders, but I want to give them an opportunity to tell me anything important first. Observe his behavior and you will come to know the boy as he is today. While I would PRESUME that the council would pass on information about a boy who is poetentially dangerous, I don't actually know if they would. Anyone know for a fact how councils typically handle such issues?

Hello jhankins, Well, we really don't know what the incident was. If some kind of disclosure is important, I would regard it the responsibility of the council and it's representatives to decide what to say. As I've noted in earlier posts, I would say very little and regard the incident as closed. In part that would be to protect the boy from having people gossiping about the incident, and that includes Scoutmasters. I would suppose that the boy and his parents are embarassed by the incident and would prefer to have it not brought up and discussed further. But that's my bias. Others are certainly entitled to their opinion.

There are other ways of handling this problem.....

The records are available should the CO receive a subpoena for them or a court or law enforcement officer make a demand for them. Aside from that, the Scout unit would be deciding not to gossip about this incident. Talking to the Scoutmaster about it amounts to gossiping. If there are no records, there isn't much need to talk about it. Perhaps the Scout would have to repeat some advancement requirements. Tough. The kid and family ought to be RELIEVED that the troop has decided to adopt a policy of not discussing the incident, whatever it was. The worst thing for the boy would be to have a bunch of people gossping about the boy and the incident for years to come. And face it. It was not something investigated by the cops. The council staff investigated it and decided the boy should be free to continue in Scouting It's not especially unusual for boys to do things that could get them kicked out of a troop. Getting CAUGHT at it is rare, and actually getting kicked out still more rare. The kid is going to have to establish himself at a new troop, and probably endure some sceptical scrutiny by troop leaders for a while. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. There are lots of things a troop MIGHT do when confronted by this kind of situation. The course of action I've suggested seems reasonable to me and protects everyone's interests, if not perfectly. That's the way it looks to me, anyway. Others are welcome to their opinions and strategies. I will be glad to read them.

Sorry, I find it a little too glib to say "it's the government's responsibility" to fund pension promises. Usually the reason they have trouble doing so is that unions and Democrats are flogging government spending for all they can. There should be a price for that. If unions can't protect their pemsion plans from being raided by government, tough. They should be expending political power protecting those plans and insuring that they are funded and that the money stays in them. If they can't ---- tough. They may see the promised benefits cut. That's life when you sit down with government at the table and choose to ante up. Seattle Pioneer

Hello Scout Nut, I have no objection to the comment you suggested. You are simply recording the actions taken by the troop, and that ought to be fine. My personal feeling is that it's to everyone's advantage to seal the records of the boy and not make them available to anyone unless there were a law enforcement or court request for them. As I noted before, my bias would be to turn them over to the Institutional Head. If the council or someone else wants to butt heads with that person, they would be entitled to do so. I'm not saying I'm "right" here, just suggesting this is a reasonable action to take which will protect the interests of the troop, chartered organization and volunteers.

You guys carry what you like and I'll carry what I find useful. Personally I find a knife with a 12" blade overkill, but help yourself if it appeals to you. If you don't care for my reasoning, fine. I appreciate reading your thoughts and ideas.

Hello eisely, So you call the other Scoutmaster. You are told that yes, the boy was a member of the troop between certain dates. He was expelled from the troop because of serious violations of Scout rules. The District Executive and council were aware of this action. No other information will be provided because the records of the boy have been sealed by the troop.

Hello Calico Penn,

This is spun off from the thread about a boy thrown out of a Scout Troop and applying for membership in a new Troop: How is this boy likely to apply to a new Troop? Is he likely to apply with no notice of any kind of problems in his previous troop? Is the District Executive or other Council Representative likely to have a chat with the Scoutmaster? Have you had experience with similar kinds of things yourself with boys who had troubles with their previous unit? How did you handle that? Suppose you called the previous Scoutmaster and got the simple information that the boy had belonged to the troop for a period of time and "left." Or perhaps that he was "expelled" and you got no further information. Or perhaps you got an earful of lurid details over the phone. What might you do? What should you do?

Part of the problem of telling the new Troop what happened is that you can't really tell them "the facts." You can't really tell them who, what, where, and when. Unless you saw the actual events, you can only give them your opinion of what other people said they saw and heard. That's hearsay. What you write in Troopmaster is hearsay, except that the troop expelled the boy.

> We'll just use the "Language and Culture" belt loop requirement above and ask these ladies to teach the Cub Scouts how to say "Please be quiet and pay attention." in Polish.....

> We'll just use the "Language and Culture" belt loop requirement above and ask these ladies to teach the Cub Scouts how to say "Please be quiet and pay attention." in Polish.....

Hello tahawk, You make some good points. A Scout axe is kept in the axe yard. Not as convenient as a killing weapon as a sheath knife carried on your person. Same for kitchen knives. I can't say that I've observed someone in a killing rage while on a Scout outing. Neither have I ever observed anyone who was at some substantial disadvantage because he didn't have a sheath knife on his person. Even including a modest amount of climbing and a lot of backpacking, hiking, cross country skiing, snowshoeing and such, I can't recall a situation that a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade wouldn't serve my needs. Of course, that was supplemented with kitchen or other special purpose knives and axes when such needs were planned. I think the attractiveness of sheath knives in the past was that pocket knives hadn't been invented and readily available yet. For those who have a use for or just like sheath knives, help yourself. I have no objection to them. I simply find that a folding pocket knife meets my needs and has the particular advantage of being easily carried on a key chain, so I'm far more likely to have it when I have a use for it than a sheath knife. It's just a more practical knife in my experience, and that's 95% of the reason why I encourage Scouts to choose them. Carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3" can have legal implications as a concealed weapon in a good many places. Other than at schools and such, that's unlikely to be an issue for pocket knives with blade 3" or less. And in general I don't carry a killing weapon myself and I'd discourage boys from carrying weapons that are efficient man killers. A hot temper or incident that causes a fight might get a boy into trouble. A hot temper or incident that causes a fight with a killing weapon in a boy's hand might land him in jail. My assessment is that most people are better off not carrying man killing weapons unless they have been carefully trained in their use, and even then a lot of people who have hot tempers, drink alcohol, have a history of being of interest to the police or have other such issues are better off without such weapons. So for all these reasons, I carry a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade and encourage Scouts to do the same. But you may have other needs and preferences. You are welcome to them. I have no objection to responsible people making other choices.

Interesting issue. I won't claim I have the "right" answer. I'm basically thinking through the issue here. There's a lot to be said for deferring to the council. They have the responsibility for the decisions they make, and presumably the expertise and experience to make good decisions. Also, once the boy is gone from the troop, he is no longer the responsibility of the troop. The troop doesn't have the responsibility to provide a character reference for the boy, and I wouldn't attempt to do so. My inclination might be to delete or dispose of the boy's records. But destroying records might be seen as hiding something should a legal issue arise in the future. That being the case, an alternative might be to seal the records and leave them in the possession of the Chartered Organization or some other responsible person with the presumption that they would be held in case some official purpose needed to be served. That means letting them sit in a file where no one is going to have access to them. The parent's request for troop records could be politely turned aside, saying that the records have been sealed and are not available absent a legal order to produce them. Referring parents to the Council records and the boys's Scout handbook would be doing your best. I don't think I would go out of my way to contact the new troop. That leaves what to do if contacted by the new Scoutmaster. My inclination would be to tell the Scoutmaster what I might say if I were involved in a libel trial over the boy's reputation. I think you could truthfully say that the boy was a member of your troop during such and such period of time, but he was expelled because of a serious violation of troop or Boy Scout rules. No, you would not accept him as a member were he to apply for reinstatement. And I'd say nothing else.

Hello DAD, I'll repeat an anecdote I told earlier in this thread. I have a KA-Bar knife stamped "USMC." I dote on it for two reasons: 1) It's a part of American history because it's a type of American Bowie Knife that was developed in the United States and fought at the Alamo and because it was the most famous combat knife of American troops (and the Marine Corp in particular) during WWII, Korea and later. 2) It's the best and safest tool to split kindling that I know of. So I take it in to explain the history and purpose I have for the knife to Bear or Webelos Scouts. They get to hold it and I might let them try splitting kindling with it. But my personal knife is a Swiss Army folding knife with just a few gadgets. What knife do I want to ENCOURAGE Cub Scouts to carry once they have their whitling chip? Answer: a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade or a pocket knife which will lock the blade open. If Scouts are permitted or encouraged to wear a sheath knife, some will, and others will want to get a bigger knife to display. So unless there were a reason, I would discourage wearing a sheath knife. I would encourage Scouts to carry a practical pocket knife with a 3" blade. I would have carving and chef's knives available for use while cooking, and other specialty knives as needed. I wouldn't bring my KA-BAR knife for Scouts to use to split kindling because it would be a too attractive nuisance that might be misused. And there is one other issue. The KA-BAR knife has a 7" blade and is about an inch wide. The clipped upper part of the blade and its size makes it a deadly stabbing knife. I'd just rather not have that weapon available for someone to grab if they get angry. By contrast, a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade has a myriad of uses but is a lousy combat weapon. Also, if someone wants to split kindling with a knife, you can use a pocket knife like my Swiss Army knife and pound the blade through the kindling with a stick of wood. The KA-BAR is the superior knife for that task, but a regular pocket knife does OK. To be candid, I'd simply prefer that boys not carry a knife that is an effective man-killing weapon when the 3" pocket knife is a better choice to carry. And when Scouts look at me to see what their Cubmaster or Scoutmaster carries routinely as a knife, they see the same folding pocket knife they are encouraged to carry. (USA Infantry Motto: "Follow Me!") So at least for me, the BSA policy of discouraging the carrying of sheath knives makes sense and conforms with my own biases. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Sigh. I started a thread a few weeks ago questioning whether parents or Cub Scouts were the biggest behavior problems. Adults being the problem won by a landslide! As a Cubmaster I ask what would I have done had this question been brought to me? My bias would be to say, "the Den Leader is responsible for the program he/she conducts unless they are doing something clearly wrong". Is the Den Leader doing something wrong? Well.... maybe. Is it wrong to chat in a foreign language during the program, or is it just wrong to chat during the program if it's disruptive? If the CHATTING is disruptive, it would have been far better to have objected to that. If the chatting itself isn't disruptive, then it's not really disruptive, it's just annoying and it's probably something that could be ignored. While it might be nice if everyone spoke English, everyone doesn't. If buckytom's comments are accurate, she has already resolved the issue I pose: it isn't the chatting itself that amounts to a disruption. It's the fact that the chatting is in a foreign language that is the issue. If I were Cubmaster I would say that it's OK to chat in a foreign language as long as the chatting itself is not disruptive. As a thought experiment, let's have one of the Polish moms be the Den Leader. She adopts a rule that's it's OK to chat during the Den Meeting as long as the chatting is done in Polish. How would that go over?

I worked with a pack where the dad was the Bear Den leader and the Mom was Committee Chair. The next year Dad was Webelos Den Leader, but they had a younger boy who was a Tiger Cub, So Mom was the TCDL and CC as well. In addition, her son sold the Tiger Cubs to every 1st grader in sight and she had fifteen plus Tiger Cubs! Plus the pack had a great program and generally exploded in size. So Mom was very busy that year.

Well, my BEST turnout for a Boy Scout recruiting night was the Video Game night I ran and promoted. We had loads of new boys show up that I had never seen before. And never saw again. But my best method for Boy Scout recruiting at a booth is the stationary bicycle race I mentioned earlier. I bought a good staionary bicycle at a thrift shop for $10 or so, but you may have a family that has one. I stopped by bicycle shops and solicited them for bicycle advertizing posters to decorate a booth. I had a bicycle ride scheduled for the week after the booth promotion. A Boy Scout in uniform (or an adult in uniform) stands out in front of the booth and solicits every Scout aged boy to do the stationary bicycle race. ("Can YOU be the FASTEST?"). You can also invite other adults or children to do the race. The MOST competetive group were some off durty fireman who walked by one time! Scouts might like to invite cute girls... That might get them to turn out, anyway. Adjust the bicycle to fit the user. Of course, this is a RACE, so get the name, age and phone number of Scout age participants so you can call them with the results. And invite them along to your Troop meeting and bicycle trip. Use a stop watch to measure how long it takes them to race a half mile or a mile. Adjust the resistance so they have to work at it some. I made up a board and could put the 3x5 card with the name and time of the racer among those who raced by the time it took them. I had very good results with this. For recruiting Cub Scouts, my favorite was to have young boys pound a nail in a block of wood while the parent assisted their son. inviting them to a pack meeting or recruiting night was easy with that kind of simple shared experience. But the key is getting out there to SELL the idea of participating. You need someone who will act like a carnival barker! But really, selling a FREE fun activity is pretty easy!

Spring is the best time to recruit new Boy Scouts who have not gone through Cub Scouts. In particular, contactuing 5th and sixth graders and inviting them to a recruiting night and outing is a good strategy. Recruiting at churches that have significant numbers of boys of Scouting age might be practical. What kind of community events do you have that attract young people of Scouting age? I like to do a stationary bicycle race at such events. I time people to see how long it takes the to "race" a mile on the odometer, and of course I need to get the name, age and phone number of participants to post their times and such. Handing boys of Scouting age an invitation to a troop bicycle ride might be attractive after com,pleting the event. In a small town, it might be practical to identify all the youth of Scouting age and invite them to suitable Troop activities.

Usually once a year I plan the set up of tents as a den competition at a pack meeting. Each den gets a self supporting tent in a bag. At the signal, all the dens compete to set up the tent, get inside and give their den cheer the first. Tiger Cub and Tiger Cub parents get to work together. Other dens can be helped by the den leader as needed. It's always a fun activity.

> Hello Calico, Public Employee unions have been used to being winners for forty years and can hardly imagine that they would wind up being losers. Being losers would mean thwey were the victim of something illegitimate. The Wisconsin Republicans have stirred up a hornet's nest, and that may be a political mistake. But that doesn't mean Republicans have been acting in bad faith byrevising certain laws. They are entitled to do that, if they can. Actually, it's rather obnoxious for unions to say "Look, we will be GLAD to cut the pay and benefits of our members, just don't take away our ability to charge them union dues whether they want to pay or not!" Wisconsin government is free to cut unions out of the loop if they can. They would not be acting in bad faith if they did. "Bad faith" bargaining is a concept from the National Labor Relations Act which has no application to this kind of discussion.

A private message from fermi: > I had to censor it to get past the censors. He seems sensitive about that ---- I thought it would be something in which he would take pride. fermi, you should read "The Prince" by 16th century Italian Niccol Machiavelli. You'd like reading it, and it goes over the kind of ethical issues you raise in a sympathetic but realistic fashion. Your ideas aren't new and aren't necessarily wrong. They are a different ethical system and standard than that promoted by Boy Scouts.

I can imagine fermi growing up to be Bill Clinton....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle,_Globe,_and_Anchor > I suppose the Marines may have a certain bias since their eagle, globe and anchor emblem has the eagle right there on top....