scoutldr

By TIM MCGLONE , The Virginian-Pilot April 19, 2005 When James Edge last spoke with his son, Capt. James C. Edge, he gave the 31-year-old Marine some fatherly advice about keeping his head low in Iraq. He was telling me that everything was going fine. He hadnt lost anyone in his battalion, Edge, a Navy retiree, said Monday. Five days later, on April 15, two Marines showed up at his Knotts Island home with the grim news: Capt. Edge had been killed in a gun battle in Ramadi, a city about 60 miles west of Baghdad along the Euphrates River. The Department of Defense announced Edges death Monday, giving little information other than that he was hit by enemy small-arms fire during combat operations. It was his second tour in Iraq. Ramadi has been one of the most violent cities recently, with near-daily attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces. Three American soldiers were killed there in a mortar attack over the weekend. Edge, a former Eagle Scout from Virginia Beach and a 1992 graduate of Green Run High School, leaves behind his wife, Krissy, and two daughters, ages 3 and 6. Family members had called him Jamie since he was a boy. His twin brother, William, is known as Billy . The youngest of the three Edge boys is Tommy. It seemed, according to the Edge family, that Jamies years in the Boy Scouts had prepared him for the Marines. He earned his Eagle Scout badge in high school. That did have a lot to do with building his character and being organized, his father said. Tim Cherry, Troop 486 adviser, remembers Edge as a personable, athletic boy. He really was a great kid, he said. At Green Run High School, Edge played football and soccer and wrestled. He was also in the Naval Junior ROTC. Teachers said Edge was bubbly, always with a smile, always a neat kid, always pleasant, said Elizabeth Norton, a Green Run math teacher. If you asked him to do something, he wanted to do things the right way, added Richard Joyner, a Green Run government teacher. Edge joined the Marine Corps Reserves in 1993 before entering Virginia Military Institute. He spent summers at Officer Candidate School and graduated a second lieutenant in 1996 with a bachelors degree in international studies. He had been in many skirmishes while serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom with the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division from Camp Pendleton. In April 2004, Edge told The Associated Press that he and a group of Marines came under attack by insurgents in Fallujah. Four Marines were killed during two days of fighting. Edge also was involved that month in uprooting insurgents hiding in a Fallujah mosque, according to news stories. His role in the war consisted of more than fighting. He acted as a liaison to help arrange a cease-fire agreement with those same insurgents, it was reported. After a few months of leave, which Edge spent with his wife and children in California, he returned to Iraq, this time with II Marine Expeditionary Force. His father said his son had reported no losses in his battalion during his second tour. He was in very good spirits, his father said. James Edge said his son always spoke proudly of his service and never questioned the reason for the war. He would say, 'This is for a good cause. This is why were there, his father said. He was very focused on what his mission was. Younger brother Tommy Edge released a statement from the family saying, Jamie died serving his country and protecting our freedom. He was a loving husband and father, a devoted son and brother. He was the best of the best our country had to offer. We need to remember his sacrifice and honor his memory, the statement said. He leaves a legacy of fierce love of God and country, of the Corps and of his family. Tommy Edge said his brother represents the epitome of what a man should be. He has been my teacher and role model, and I have learned so much from his life, he said. Even in death, he continues to be a source of support and inspiration in my life. When asked if he considers his son a hero, James Edge said he considers all the service members in Iraq and Afghanistan to be heroes. I am very proud of him, he said. Later, in an e-mail, he added: I love my son and wish all the other fathers in America could experience a son like Jamie I did and I am blessed. Funeral preparations were incomplete Monday, but a service will be held at the Oceana chapel, the family said. Edge becomes the 16th service member either from Hampton Roads or based here to die in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts.

>>Those of us who recognize the value in the Eagle badge and who want the best for our children should remove obstacles and motivate them to earn this.

It might be helpful to review the Declaration of Religious Principle, which all registered Scouts and Scouters agree to abide: The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership. The first thing I notice is that it states "obligation to God"...God with a capital "G". In my opinion, that means the God of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition, aka, Allah, Jahweh, Jehovah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, etc. In all of these writings, it is clear that Satan is not "God", indeed the concept of Satan is the antithesis of God. Likewise, the "Earth Mother" is not God. So, I think that the liberal interpretation that "belief in a higher power" suffices, is just a little too liberal. Of course, you will never get BSA to admit that Satanism is equivalent to Atheism, so once again, we are left to our own interpretations. I would tell the young man and his family that Satanism is not an acceptable activity, based on your interpretation, and the avowal and practice of Satanism will not be tolerated in a Scouting context. Then let him appeal. Getting this young man "back on track" is beyond the resources of most Scouters, and should be left to his parents and God. It could be he is in need of pharmaceuticals, as well, and we can't help in that area, either. Here again, we have to consider whether saving this one lost sheep is worth losing all the others and destroying the program in the process. If you want to minister to and pray for this young man, that's admirable, but as the prayer says, pray for "the wisdom to know the difference".

Let he who is without sin fill out the first BSA leader application. People amaze me with their self-righteous down-the-nose attitude. If I read a book on Nazism, does that make me a Nazi? If I watch football on TV, does that make me a Quarterback? Just because I read Playboy doesn't make me a rapist. I would rather have a Playboy reader lead my sons troop than I would a smoker. At least he doesn't bring his Playboy on camping trips and read it around the campfire or sneak out to his truck every 30 minutes to gaze at the centerfold. Is he doing his duty to God? Who here is so arrogant that they can presume to know the answer to that deeply personal question? Pray for him if you must. Anything beyond that is out of line and an invasion of his privacy.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

When I was in Scouts in the 60's there was no flag on the uniform. I don't recall ever being confused as to what country I was a citizen of. Of course, when we forgot the flag, we couldn't salute the SPL's right arm. When my son joined Cubs in 1984, the flag patch was worn over the pocket above the "Cub Scouts BSA" strip, so there was no confusion as to what was correct. My own opinion is that the Army is wrong and it looks stupid. As was pointed out, the flag patch is not a flag. It is not double sided and does not "fly in the wind". It's a patch, and the field should be to it's own right when displayed on a flat surface.

The most important lesson we can teach young people is that they have to live with the natural consequences of their own choices. Whether it's the young 11 yo tenderfoot who forgets to bring the can opener on the campout, or the 17 yr 10 month old Eagle candidate who can't quite find the time to get that last merit badge done. >>now that we've finished growing up

I am not aware that troops have exclusive territories ("recruiting districts"). In my area, we have a new troop that was just formed at a "mega church" literally blocks from where we meet, so we are drawing from the same schools. Prospective scouts or upcoming Webelos should be encouraged to visit as many troops as they can to find the best fit. We have a scout who comes from the other side of the city, because his dad works with our ASM. We had another scout visit, but chose another troop because we weren't "religious enough". It's up to the scout and his parents. More to your question...you currently have 25% of "TAY" (total available youth). Those are pretty good stats in anyone's book. Those scouts are your best recruiting tool. Have each one bring a friend to an open house. As someone else said, Scouting's success is based on three things...program, program and program. If you build it, they will come.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

ps56k - I like the sports analogy. The SM is the coach. If the QB is performing badly, the coach cannot enter the game and take his place. It's simply not allowed, and all the parents accept that. The coach has to keep coaching until the QB gets it, or is replaced. If the other players tire of losing, they either improve their performance or find another team. I like it!

I have two copies of Follow Me Boys on DVD. Disney released it last year. Best Buy has them in this area.

I did not beg, bribe, threaten, coerce, beat, or do the work for them (as I have seen some parents do), therefore, neither of my sons completed their Eagle. All I did was serve as a registered adult and make sure they had a Troop to belong to and rides to every meeting and camping trip. Not making Eagle was a result of their efforts and priorities, not mine...as it should be. Complacency is not a quality of an Eagle. That's why the brotherhood of Eagles remains an elite society, of which MOST of them should be really proud. A friend of mine told me last week that he was having to take a day off from work to go around and get his son's Eagle application processed in time for his 18th birthday. I just shook my head and said, "why is this YOUR problem?"

While I am thoroughly enjoying the debate, I took the day off to do my "Duty to Country" and finish my tax return! :-( Here it is almost noon already! Gotta go so I can finish in time to make the District Meeting tonight. TTFN!

Busylady, I am thoroughly enjoying your thoughtful, coherent, and obviously educated posts. Welcome to the forum and I look forward to more of your writings! You can bring the s'mores next time! My concern is that the average Scouter, me included, while adept at teaching a Bowline or how to sharpen a knife, is not a Theologian capable of recognizing or determining when a Scout has met his "duty to God", in the tradition of his faith and family. Perhaps that is one requirement that we should leave solely to the Deity to determine. As the Scripture says, only He/She knows what's in the Scout's heart. All we see are his actions. If an adulterer holds the door for his girlfriend, is he still Courteous? Hmmm. If the faithful husband verbally abuses his wife, is he still Morally Straight? I think I'll stick to tying knots and stay out of the Judgement business. By the time we consider all of the possible permutations, none of us will remain standing.

We had a discussion at RT this week about the "Scout Spirit" requirement. One leader stated that he had a Roman Catholic scout who was refusing to become Confirmed in his Church. Based on that, he was considering witholding advancement (Scout Spirit) based on not doing his "Duty to God" as defined by his faith, the RC church. The same leader said that a Scout whose family was unchurched, but who professed a faith in a higher power, would be granted advancement, since he was "practicing" his faith in the tradition of his family, and thus showing Scout Spirit, as opposed to the RC scout who goes to Mass every Sunday, but was being rebellious about Confirmation against his parent's wishes. I had to admit to myself that this was a twist that I had never considered. My opinion is that BSA should clearly define what the requirement is (e.g., as busylady described it), or get out of the religion business. Just like any other requirement, it should be stated and we should not add nor subtract from it. It's not fair to us or to the Scouts to ask us to adjudicate it according to our own personal beliefs or ingenuity.

Congratulations, Mike! I did not used to be anything, so maybe I am speaking out of turn...I think your Beading should be anywhere that is most meaningful to you. Having said that, my only concern would be the time required, the attention span of Cubs, and would they really understand or care about the significance of the ceremony? Having been a CM for 5 years, I know that time at a Pack Meeting can be tight, especially if your Pack is large. If you can make it all work without shortchanging the boys, then by all means, go for it. We had a Beading Tues night at the Cub Roundtable. We have also had Beadings at Univ of Scouting. Beatings, on the other hand, are administered whenever needed!

I;m not much of a techie, but I notice in the last 2 days, my browser (IE6) resets the text size to "Medium" whenever I close it. When I reopen Scouter.com, I have to reset the text to "Largest". Other web sites don't seem to be doing this. I'm running a Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop. As my mother in law says, these things have a mind of their own sometimes.

"To me, the BSA call to "duty to God" (meaning earnestness in prayer, study of Scripture, confession of sin, and effort to "sin no more") is linked to the policy excluding practicing homosexuals through the Judeo-Christian heritage." I don't recall the BSA defining duty to God in quite those terms. The BSA policy is set forth in the Declaration of Religious Principle, found in the BSA Application for Membership. The SCout's duty to God is defined by him, his parents and religious leader, not by the BSA or the Unit leadership. As long as the Scout confesses a belief in a higher power, i.e., "not atheist", he is good to go. I too appreciate the civil discourse. What a welcome change!(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

My response was tongue in cheek, in case it wasn't clear. This is one of my pet peeves...we do our darnedest to train Leaders and encourage parents to buy the complete uniform and wear it properly, then they see what's in Boys' Life. I don't think anyone should get their picture in a BSA publication unless they are properly and completely uniformed.

"as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs, and other official publications of the Boy Scouts of America." Soooo, anything we see illustrated (including photos?) in Boys'Life or Scouting magazines can be assumed to be acceptable?

I think the "legal" answer is, as long as a boy is still registered in a Pack, he can earn rank. Once his transfer to a Troop is processed at Council and he is on the Troop roster, he's done.

Hoo-ah!

What foods Scouts really want: Hot dogs, hamburgers, french fries, pizza, pop tarts, bug juice, peanut butter, chocolate coated sugar cereal. What foods SCouts really DON'T want: Vegetables (except ketchup) and any other food not listed above. Seriously, though, after trying every other method, we have settled on family style with a self-serve salad bar and PBJ table. Some kids eat nothing but PBJ, cookies, and sugar cereal all week. Plus they can buy all the junk and soda they want at the Trading Post ($$$PROFIT!!!). But the goal is to keep them alive, not transform their nutritional habits in 6 days. I understand that there are menu requirements (balanced meals, daily calorie intake, etc) for an accredited camp, but forcing kids to eat what's on the menu is another thing. Not to generalize...some eat very well, some do not. In our area of the country, July is typically 95+degrees and 70%+ humidity. Anything that lessens the time we have to spend sitting in the unairconditioned sauna we call a dining hall is greatly appreciated, especially when uniforms are required at the evening meal.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

Eamonn, As our esteemed colleague, Bob White is fond of saying (and I paraphrase), those who take the unsubstantiated opinions on this forum as fact without verifying them, are naive and irresponsible. As long as this forum is open to free discussion, it will be a milieu of fact, fiction, policy and BS, as all public forums are. It's up to the reader to sort out which is which. Perhaps we should outlaw OP-Ed columns in newspapers, as well, since the stupid public may get the wrong idea about the Government and our leaders. This country was founded in 1776 on the principle of Freedom of Speech. The forum owner also grants us a degree of freedom and it's up to him to change it if he sees fit. And yes, I am fully aware that there are youth members around. So they are not "Scouters". They are "Scouts". So much of the discussion that goes on is not something they need to know about nor are necessarily interested in, kinda like what goes on behind the curtain in Oz. Just like I am not interested in the merits of Lego containers. If you are proposing to limit the discussions to "Scouter" issues only, let's get serious about it. scoutldr(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

Eammon, I respect your experience and have thoroughly enjoyed your postings and musings over the years. Your charming British accent is evident even in your writing and I am happy you chose to live among us revolutionaries on this side of the pond. However, I must respectfully disagree. If the host allows a guest into the house and the moderators choose to allow him to stay, it's rude for us fellow guests to disagree. They are far from "gatecrashers". They are admitted guests, just like you and me. Like the BSA, the forum owner admits members according to his own standards, some of which may be ambiguous or contradictory to the rest of us, not unlike the BSA membership standards. Like many have been told on this forum, if we don't care for the kind of party the host is throwing, we are free to decline to attend...politely. Perhaps you've hit on the root cause of our angst...the art of manners is being lost because people choose not to care about others' feelings or opinions. That's sad. Perhaps a valid BSA registration number should be required for admission? I agree with Prairie. The Issues and Politics section was started for the reason of moving the heated non-scouting debates to their own section. People are free to avoid that section if they find it distasteful, but I think it is no small coincidence that it is one of the most popular forums on Scouter.com. And, my opinion is that, if this is billed as a "SCOUTER" forum, that implies adults over age 18, who can discuss adult issues in an adult manner without risk of offending tender young psyches. At least that was my assumption when I requested admission. (This message has been edited by scoutldr)

Do you mean leave Scouting or leave the forums? The rules you quote are those of the Boy Scouts of America, Inc. They are not the rules of this forum, which is privately owned and sponsored. We are all here by invitation of the forum owner, and remain here due to his generosity. Miss Manners will always tell you that if you are invited to a party, it is the height of rudeness to inquire who else will be there before you accept the invitation. Once there, if one finds people to whom one does not wish to be pleasant, the only proper thing to do is thank the host, excuse oneself and leave. There is no one on this forum that I would want to leave because of their beliefs or opinions, because they have caused me to re-examine my own beliefs and convictions more closely. That was valuable to me, even if I cannot agree with their opinions or adopt their lifestyle as my own. There are some I wish would leave because of their rudeness, arrogance and just plain nastiness, however. But alas, it's not my party and I am not granted the right to choose the guests.

I'll bet BP would insist that all BSA pubs be put on CD and mailed to every registered leader every year. Cost of CD and mailing would be about a buck apiece. Separate CDs for youth would be available containing the BS Handbook, Fieldbook and all MB pamphlets. There would be online ordering for all items in the BSA catalog and everything would be reasonably priced and functional.