scoutldr

The FDL is the official symbol of Quebec, which would account for it ending up in New Orleans...probably imported by the French Acadians (Cajuns). If you google "Quebec Flag": "The flag of Quebec was officially adopted on March 9, 1950. It's a modern version of the old French-Canadian flag known as the Fleurdelyse. The white cross on a blue field recalls an ancient French military banner, and the four (4) fleur-de-lys (flowers) are symbolic of France." See also: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/fdl.htm which shows a stained glass FDL window dating from the 15th century. So bottom line is the BSA would have a tough time trying to lay claim to the rights to the generic FDL. When the eagle, shield, stars and "Be Prepared" scroll are added, however, it becomes a unique trademark.

From Wikipedia: Fleur-de-lis is literally translated from French as "flower of the lily", and is widely thought to be a stylised version of the species Iris pseudacorus. Decorative ornaments that resemble the fleur-de-lis have appeared in the artwork from the earliest civilizations. "The use for ornamental or symbolic purposes of the stylised flower usually called fleur de lis is common to all eras and all civilizations. It is an essentially graphic theme found on Mesopotamian cylinders, Egyptian bas-reliefs, Mycenean potteries, Sassanid textiles, Gaulish coins, Mameluk coins, Indonesian clothes, Japanese emblems and Dogon totems. The many writers who have discussed the topic agree that it has little to do graphically with the lily, but disagree on whether it derives from the iris, the broom, the lotus or the furze, or whether it represents a trident, an arrowhead, a double axe, or even a dove or a pigeon. It is in our opinion a problem of little importance. The essential point is that it is a very stylised figure, probably a flower, that has been used as an ornament or an emblem by almost all civilizations of the old and new worlds."[3] It has consistently been used as a royal emblem, though different cultures have interpreted its meaning in varying ways. Gaulish coins show the first designs which look closely similar to modern fleurs-de-lis.[4]

Welcome to the forum, Pack! We refer to this as our virtual campfire, so pull up a log and pour yourself a cuppa joe (or bug juice). We have many and varied opinions here, so jump right in whenever you find an opening! I got back into Scouting much the same way you did. Got my Eagle in 1970, got married in 1975 and in 1978 hatched my first son. As soon as he was old enough we went to "school night for scouting" and signed up. The guy from District there actually said..."we need den leaders and it's only one hour a week"...I had to laugh out loud! Just be careful you don't bite off too much at first and burn out...enjoy the journey with your new Tiger! Laissez les bon temps roullez!

I just asked an eBay vendor if he was licensed to be selling clothing items with registered trademark BSA logos on them. He is being very evasive and demanded my name and address before he will respond. I think that tells me all I need to know. They are not even very good reproductions. His eBay name is 2rats34. Since he won't answer my questions honestly, I'll probably report him to eBay. This is the kind of thing that BSA lawyers should be going after.

We had a discussion here once a few years ago in which a poster said that "Do your Best" is the Cub Scout motto. In Boy Scouting, you either meet the requirement, or not. For most things there is little room for interpretation. For instance, I have a scout who was stalled for 2 years at 2nd class because he could/would not pass the Swimmer test. (he does not have a disability, so an alternate requirement was not considered). He would jump in, take 2-3 strokes and come up sputtering because he didn't like his face being wet. Being a BSA Lifeguard counsellor, and former WSI, I offered to spend extra time in the pool with him, and even suggested private lessons over the winter at the City Rec Center. He just wasn't interested. "Water is not my thing", he said. So, did he do his "best" or did he just do all that he was willing to do? Finally, this past summer, he passed the test and that evening we scheduled a BOR at camp and he was immediately advanced. He was very proud of his accomplishment, and will probably remember that the rest of his life. What would he remember if we had simply said, "Ok, that's good enough, you passed." Water is still not his thing, and he may not ever be an Olympic swimmer. But he reached for a goal and eventually achieved it, overcoming his personal barriers. That's what it's about...not seeing how fast you can accumulate cloth badges.

Studying B-P's original writings is interesting...I like to do it, too. But that's not the program we are charged with delivering.

See BSA Publication "Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures", Publication #33088, latest revision. Your Scout Shop should have it, or they can order it for you. As I have found out on this forum, Eagle BOR policies vary from Council to Council, but within a Council, all Districts should be on the same sheet music.

Again, this raises more questions. Why can't we see the actual policy from National? Which marks(i.e., insignia, words, phrases, designation marks, pictorial representations, and descriptive marks relating to the BSA) are "proprietary" and which are not? Is the word "Camp" proprietary? How about "Scout"? How about "Boy". My council had jackets made up with the "Timeless Values" logo and council name embroidered, and sold them in the Scout Shop. Was that illegal and should they refund my 50 bucks? The only threat seems to be that the "volunteer may be liable for the cost". What if I am willing to accept that liability?

"But what happens when the leadership finds out a Scout has a site on which he has listed all the things he find fault with and is complaining? What happens when a group of Scouts all post how unhappy they are?" The First Amendment is a wonderful thing. Are we suggesting that it should not apply to Scouts who are unhappy or have an opposing opinion? In answer to the questions above, it presents a teaching moment. Have a talk with the scouts about their opinions and ideas, and the proper ways to effect change within an organization. Some can be accomodated, others can't, within the guidelines and rules of the program. The Serenity Prayer comes to mind...

As a duly deputized member of the Uniform Police, it is my duty to inform you that these are not authorized for wear on the current uniform. You would, however, be authorized to assemble a complete uniform of the proper 1938 vintage and wear them properly. See a photo of James E. West in uniform for proper placement...or visit the National Scouting Museum in Irving to see West's uniform "in person". On your current uniform, you can wear the "Veteran unit bar" above your unit numerals.

Society is changing...but not in the way we want it to. I think it's the "overscheduling" dilemma for parents. "One hour a week" they can maybe deal with (drop off), but then we ask for one weekend a month, summer camp, popcorn sales, COH (bring a dish!), be a leader (which means double the time or more). During a BOR last week, I asked the typical question of the Star scout candidate, "What would you change about the troop"...his answer was "no more merit badge homework...we need to do everything during the troop meeting, because I don't have time to worry about it the rest of the week." The MB we are currently working on is Safety, which requires them to do things at home with their families. That's apparently "too hard". Of a group of about 8 scouts working on the badge, only about 2 are making any progress on the requirements, because they are not being "spoon fed" as a group during the troop meeting.

I have one...how about the DE who is selected for OA and within 2 years is sporting a Vigil sash? All they did was serve as Staff Advisor to the Lodge, which is in their job description. I can think of other Scouters who have dedicated decades of time at the unit level who would be more deserving of a high honor. Double standards? As far as the JE West Fellowship, I am a firm believer that it should not be allowed to be "purchased" by the recipient. It makes a fine award to bestow on a Scouter, but only if done by someone else. If you want to donate money, fine, and bless you for your donation. As a very young scout, my SM told me, "do a good turn daily, but if you brag about it, it doesn't count."

Not long ago, some members of this forum were suspended for constantly picking personal fights with each other. How soon we forget! Save it for the PM function. The rest of us aren't interested.

As everyone (I hope) knows, the proper sequence of events is 1. SM certifies that all requirements have been met (including Scout Spirit). 2. SM and scout "participate" in a SM conference. 3. A BOR is scheduled and held. 4. If the BOR is successful, the troop committee (BOR members) approves the advancement. ONce you get to step 4, there is no turning back. The SM was out of line. A call to the District Advancement Chair should set things straight. If your son was disrespectful AFTER his Star BOR, then that's a matter for the NEXT SM conference and Life BOR. This one's done.

When I was District Training Guy, I never had a problem with quality staff (I was it!). The problem was with the outdated, corny training materials that did not meet the needs of the attendees.

First of all, welcome to our campfire. I hope you find it beneficial. I zeroed in on one statement that stood out..."It's tough to compete when the Large pack can show a calendar filled with events for the whole year, and all we can say is we have a pack meeting each month and might try to figure out some other events as we go along." I would say it's impossible to compete under those conditions. Annual planning is an imperative. Your leaders should be getting "Program Helps" in their Scouting magazine, or you can get the whole years' worth at your scout shop. Each month has meetings planned aligned to a common theme. You can use that plan, or roll your own. I would not try to "cobble together" something to get you through the school year. Cubbing is a year round program, so start now and plan a 12 month program, including day camp and resident camp. Too many packs "take the summer off" and that's where you lose them. Sure, there will be vacations and other things, but offer the program to those who want it, even if just a few. Successful scouting comes down to 3 things...program, program, and last but not least, program. If you build it, they will come. Word of mouth (or "peer to peer") recruiting is the most effective. But when they show up at your door, you have to have a product to deliver. The cubmaster, as you say, has good intentions, but it sounds like the pack expects him to do it all. THe CM's job is to emcee the pack meetings and oversee and mentor the den leaders. The pack program and other functions belong to the Committee Chair and Pack Committee. What is the level of training in your Pack? One of our former posters here would say that the answer to everything is training...I don't agree with that, but it's a good start to let everyone know what their respective jobs are. Are your den leaders and CM regularly attending roundtables? In my 6 years as a DL/CM, that's where I got my best ideas...from my peers and the more experienced RT staff. In a 2-Pack town, it should not be viewed as a competition, but to offer boys and parents a choice. There are many reasons that people will not choose your Pack, including location, size, and where their friends go. You can't control those, but you need to focus on the things you CAN control. Good luck.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

I'm all for protecting trademarks...against those who are illegally profiting from their use. That does not describe the majority of us. A reasonable approach would be to allow registered members of the BSA to use the marks for the promotion of the BSA program, such as patches, newsletters, cerificates, training flyers, etc. THose who are using the marks for profit on unlicensed products, such as clothing, should be fair game for the lawyers. To those who have the alleged "10 page document", could someone scan it and post it on the internet for us to read? I see no reason why it should be kept a "secret", since it affects us all.

I should have said that Camp Hidden Valley is NW of Gettysburg. Their official mailing address is Loysville...Landisburg is the next town over. The cabins are heated both with wood stoves and gas furnaces. they have full kitchen facilities (refrig, stove, oven, hot water), and indoor toilets (the health dept made them close the pit latrines). Also, as I said, hot water central showers which are open all winter. The cabins will hold up to 50 scouts in bunk beds (open bay style). www.keystonebsa.org

Miki101 said, "In 6 months there will be a dozen authorized patch makers to which councils can turn." I remember when the rule came out that "all BSA patches must include the FDL". But what's used is the generic plain FDL without eagle, not the registered trademark. I can't remember a patch, other than rank badges, that contain registered trademarks. CSP, event patches, OA flaps...nope. At least in my Council. So as a free American, I can use the generic FDL at will, with whatever vendor I want, right? As long as I don't order it through Council. Our Council does have a rule that all event patches MUST be approved and ordered by the SE. I've always wondered if he gets a kickback from favored vendors.

I don't think there are "established guidelines". Last month the dad of one of our scouts passed from a very aggressive pancreatic cancer. In the short months leading up to it, we tried to ensure that the scout had our support and a "normal" routine. We watched him grow up a lot in the past six months. We all attended the service as a group, in full uniform.

I regularly sit on EBOR as the District rep, and don't object to letters of recommendation. They are usually sealed in the envelopes until we sit down around the EBOR table, and we pass them around and read them before the scout is called in. But my point was, if the letters are not there, or there isn't one from a "religious" reference, we don't hold that against the scout.

Wow...250K!!! And I was outraged over the measly $130K for the SE in our council. I have made the same decision. My donations will go directly to my unit...that way I know the money is spent on program and not for someone to live way above MY means.

"And although scoutldr is correct that the application calls only for references and not letters, some Councils will insist that the Scout arrange for letters." Wouldn't this be adding to the requirements?

We use Camp Hidden Valley, Keystone Area Council in Landisburg, just NE of Gettysburg. We'll be there for President's day weekend in Feb. Cabins have been recently updated with indoor bathrooms and they have a central shower with HOT water :-). We also do a side trip to Ski Roundtop.

Just curious as to why the DE and DC are off the hook here? Isn't it THEIR job to work with the unit to identify potential CO's and then go in and sell the program? Why is this being left up to the unit to "sink or swim"?