scoutldr

In another thread, Beavah writes: "So let me take a step back. I think in the end, if we focus too much on specifics, we lose the goals. Dluders, in your mind, is this boy an Eagle Scout? That is to say, is he a boy that you'd be happy standing up in front of a room of other people - and especially other younger boys you're trying to mentor - and saying "This is what an Eagle is". Then joining in applauding the lad. ... But if he's not a boy you can genuinely hold up to the parents, CO, and especially to other boys as an example and "hero" of sorts, then yeh have an obligation not to, and to keep working with him. And if your program is promotin' and signin' off on such lads, then yeh should be about fixing that, too. Eagle isn't the spot to catch things. A Star Scout should also be a good example to younger boys." Thanks Beav! That about sums it up for me.

Thanks for all the excellent brainstorming! Keep it coming! I would like to see ALL BSA forms and publications available on-line in .pdf format. That way everyone has access to the latest version ALL the time. Failing that, local Scout Shops should be prohibited from selling off supplies of pubs and forms if a newer version is available.

I was dutifully converting all my light bulbs to compact fluourescents to reduce my "Carbon Footprint", until I read an article reminding me that they all contain elemental Mercury...a highly toxic liquid metal. Once all these CFLs start hitting the landfills, we're going to have another environmental problem on our hands unless they have a strict Hg reclamation program. Same thing is true when these Hybrid vehicles hit the 10 year mark and those batteries need replacing. Danged if we do and danged if we don't! Perhaps it's all part of God's plan to keep the Earth from overpopulating! Biblical (and geologic) history shows that every so often, He just cleans house and starts over! We're due for a housecleaning. PS: Speaking of Manhattan Project, I did my graduate internship at the Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee, back in the late 70's when it was devoted to energy research and making enriched uranium. The facilties are still there...time to crank it back up!(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

The first EBOR was troop level. The SM and CC knew about the situation, but chose not to share it with the other committee members who sat the board. The SM/CC stated "what's that got to do with Scouts?" I think they (the committee) were more angry at being blindsided (via a Letter of Recommendation) than anything. They felt that premarital sex and out of wedlock children were not behaviour reflective of the Scout Oath and Law, especially since they were representing the CO, a church. The thing I disagree with is that the District was able to overturn (annulment?) the subjective decision of a Troop committee, even though there was no problem with the process. Standard procedure when a Board denies a rank is for the Board to tell the Scout what he needs to do to "measure up" and try again. Unfortunately, in a case like this, you can't "undo" the deed and make it go away. Personally, I have been torn over this issue, and it has caused me to examine my own beliefs and whether I can still in good conscience serve as a member of the BSA, where some sins are forgiveable and some are not.

I was the one who sat the EBOR for the 18 year old father. As the District rep, that's exactly what I did...adjourned the board and called the DAC. We had just read the letters of recommendation and the scout had not yet been called in. The advice was to hold the board and let the chips fall. The Board denied the Eagle, and was overturned on appeal at the district level. (Another EBOR was held with all District people who did not know the scout.)

There was the time some 30 years ago when my young bride was making Crock Pot chili. Got the chili powder mixed up with the cinnamon. "Interesting twist on the chili, dear!"

So, premarital sex is OK, as long as it's heterosexual and they eventually get married? But let a scout declare that he doesn't think there's a God and he's out on his ear? More of those contradictions I mentioned. My head hurts.

Yep! Class of 1970! Welcome!

That's what I love about the BSA...you can always find something in the literature to support ANY side of an argument. Contradictions and ambiguities...they make life easier, so you can do whatever you want. OK, I'll bite. If it's the SCOUT who determines whether they've met the SS requirement, why is it a sign-off requirement for every rank? From now on, we'll just ask the scout if we should sign it and if he says yes, we sign it.

In my troop, the answer to Lisa's question is "yes". That requirement is the SM's to sign off. The BOR asks about it and discusses it with the scout, but if the SM signs the book, it's a done deal.

Another comment on "dropping" inactive scouts from the roster. Recently, our SE ordered that any scout who was not re-registered would be called...by the DE or Commissioner staff. Many responded that "nooooo, we didn't quit...we still want to be members!" The units were then told to get their money and get them back on the roster. Gotta keep those NUMBERS up! Doesn't matter if they are "active" or not. Bottom line is, if they pay, they're in.

As I have posted before, I have first hand experience with EBOR and appeals. We had a scout once who was denied Eagle at the EBOR. He had a child out of wedlock and was living "in sin" with the girl. SM and CC knew about the situation, but scheduled the EBOR anyway. They either did not think it had anything to do with Scouts, or expected the EBOR to "do the heavy lifting". One of the troop committee members on the Board was livid, based on Scout Spirit and "morally straight". He was even more angry that the SM and CC had withheld this information, which only came to light when one of the Letters of Recommendation revealed it. The secret ballot was not unanimous. The scout appealed, a District EBOR was held and he was given the Eagle, because "he had met all the requirements". So in my experience, I no longer have much respect for the process. 99% of the Eagle candidates I see are worthy...most 110% worthy. But anyone else who asks for it will get it too...eventually. I am an Eagle, class of 1970. I feel the process has been watered down so much, for the sake of keeping the numbers up, that I feel it's been cheapened and doesn't mean much anymore. Edited to add: The rule of "can't add or subtract" is fine, when you're dealing with objective requirements that can be measured. It's the BSA's lack of definition for the subjective requirements that gives us trouble, so most leaders just sign off. When we try to assign metrics to "Scout Spirit", we get derided for "adding to the requirement". Can't win. When it gets appealed, the District won't deal with it either. BSA needs to either allow the SM to interpret the requirement, or remove it. Can't have it both ways.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

Assuming that the folks in Irving read this forum (they'd be fools not to!), what advice do we have for them to make the program and policies better? WHat do we, the folks on the front lines (aka "Direct Contact Scouters") think needs changing for the good of the mission? I know Kudu wants a return to the original B-P program, so we'll just concede him that point from the get-go.:-) There are no right or wrong answers, and we don't need a long justification. If anyone feels compelled to argue a suggestion, please spin off a new thread. I'll start: I would like to see Cooking, Swimming and Lifesaving MB put back on the "Eagle Required List". (Required means REQUIRED...not optional)

Ditto what uz2banowl says. I have a scout in the same situation. Nearing 18, and we haven't seen him in over a year. Unfortunately, he transferred from another troop where all the requirements were signed off 2 years ago. All he has left is his project, and he will look to me to sign off on it. I agree the BSA rules need to be changed...in many areas. What power do we Scouters in the trenches have to make suggestions to National on program issues? Or are we just pawns who are expected to "love it or leave it"?

In a perfect scout troop, the PL will know when the scouts in his patrol are ready for a SM conference or BOR. He should pass this info to the SPL at the PLC. The SPL then schedules it with the SM, who coordinates the BOR with the troop CC. In a perfect world...Mom has no role in ANY of this.

Thanks for the input, GS_CS. My point in asking the question about BB guns was to confirm my suspicion, that in general, GSUSA is no more restrictive in "age-apppropriate" activities than BSA. The limiting factor seems to be the risk tolerance of the leaders and/or local Councils.

For the ranks that require successful service in a Position of Responsibility (POR), APL does not count. Must be PL or a troop level POR such as SPL, Scribe, Quartermaster, etc.

"it was cited as one example of military spending that was unrelated to military readiness" I work for the military...if that was a spending criterion, the DOD budget could be cut in half.

Thanks for all the sympathy! Went back to work today...the walk from the parking garage was about my limit. Go back to the Chiro tomorrow for another adjustment, then I should be "back on battery", as my submariner Dad used to say. Thanks, SW. I'm the first to admit I'm overweight and not active enough. Maybe this is what I need to get back in my daily swimming routine and reduce my stress level.

I can relate, foto. I have a 28 inch inseam and the switchbacks are at least 4-5 inches too long. The vertical zipper at the cuff makes hemming impossible, unless the zipper is re-set. Cost would probably be more than I paid for the pants. Last time I wore them, I bloused them with rubber bands (inside), like we used to do over our combat boots. We had this discussion once before, and there were several good ideas...one involved Velcro tabs that you could just cinch around your ankle. I don't know why the BSA has a hard time with clothing. THey are a vast improvement over the scout pants I have, but we're not all 6 foot 2 with 34 inch waists.

This article came first...interesting view of how GS councils operate... By LAWRENCE LATANE III TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER The controversy over the planned sale of a beloved and valuable waterfront camp on the Northern Neck could factor in a Girl Scout council's elections this weekend. Richmond-area Scout leaders opposed to the sale of Camp Kittamaqund in Northumberland County have recruited a slate of 18 alternative candidates to seek seats on the Girl Scout Commonwealth Council's board of directors. The candidates include two past presidents of the council who have criticized the board for deciding to sell the camp without seeking the consensus of Scout leaders. If the council's nominating committee accepts the candidates, the annual election could be a referendum over the camp's sale. "We are offering an alternative slate called the Evergreens," said Carole Noble-Park of Richmond, who has been a Scout leader for more than 30 years. "We've never had this many being nominated from the floor before," said Lynn Simms of Stafford County. Simms served as the council's president from 2000 to 2004. Her name is included in the alternative slate as a candidate for an at-large council seat. She said council seats are rarely contested and are usually filled by candidates selected by a nominat- ing committee composed of board members. About 200 voting representatives from the council's 12 associations will meet in Richmond on Saturday for the election. Each year about half of the council's 25 board seats are up for election. On even-numbered years, the council's six officers are also selected by vote. This year, voters must choose 17 council candidates as well as fill a vacancy for council secretary. It was unclear how many incumbent council members will seek re-election. Council spokeswoman Janice Williams declined yesterday to discuss the election, but said the council will issue a statement on Monday. Council leadership has remained out of public view since authorizing the sale of the 387-acre camp on the Great Wicomico River late last year. The tract of deep woods contains more than 3 miles of undisturbed tidal shoreline--a rarity on the Neck where waterfront is rapidly being converted to expensive housing developments. In one of its last statements about the camp sale, the council said in early March that it had been offered $16 million for the property. When a group of Scout leaders and Girl Scouts held a candlelight vigil in January outside the council's Mechanicsville headquarters to protest the sale during a board meeting, the board hired security guards to keep them off council property. Scouts opposed to the sale have received a warmer welcome at the Northumberland County Board of Supervisors. Moved by the arguments of the tearful scouts, supervisors placed a temporary development ban on land zoned for conservation, which included the camp. This month, the supervisors tightened subdivision restrictions within the conservation zone. The measure reduces the number of lots that could be carved from Camp Kitty from 210 to 20. The council had previously warned the county that it had been "advised to consider litigation." So far, the Board of Supervisors has not been sued, said County Administrator Kenneth Eades. Some Scout leaders are dissatisfied with the sale on environmental grounds, arguing that the Girl Scouts have no business converting open space into housing developments. Others have questioned the need to part with a camp where three generations of girls have learned to camp, paddle canoes and explore the Chesapeake Bay by sailboat. The board of directors, in an earlier statement, said the need to repair storm damage on the property, which is free of local real estate taxes, has made it too expensive to keep the camp. If voting delegates choose the alternative slate, the camp sale will not necessarily be thwarted. Pauline Cronin of Hanover County, who served as council president from 1994 to 2000, said the slate's main objective is to determine whether Scout leaders approve of the sale. She is running for secretary on the alternative slate. Its candidates have been motivated to seek office "by the secrecy and lack of input" demonstrated so far by the current board's decision to sell, she said. Earlier, she and other sale opponents asked the board to "please put the sale on hold until the membership could be consulted," Cronin said. "That was our only request -- and the very next day [the board] began negotiating with an unsolicited bidder." Cronin and the other 17 alternative candidates "are all in favor of involving the membership in the [sale] decision," she said. If Scout leaders endorse the sale, "it would be sad," Cronin said. "But, if that's the way they feel resources should be used, majority rules." Contact staff writer Lawrence Latan III at llatane@timesdispatch.com or (804) 333-3461.

By LAWRENCE LATANE III TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER New members of a local Girl Scout administration say their landslide election last weekend might block the planned sale of a Northern Neck campground. A developer recently offered $16 million for the property, which contains more than 3 miles of waterfront along the Great Wicomico River in Northumberland County. Opponents of the Camp Kittamaqund sale took 17 of 18 seats that were up at the Girl Scout Commonwealth Council's annual meeting in Richmond on Saturday. The council released results yesterday of the election, which seated 18 new board of directors members and the council's secretary. The new members join 14 existing board members and council administrators whose terms had not expired. "We've called a board meeting, and one of the purposes is to discuss the future of Camp Kitty," said Sue Swift, a Girl Scout troop leader from Reedville who was among the candidates swept into office. She is optimistic that the board will decide to keep the 387-acre camp. "I think we can find ways to preserve and maintain the camp and not sell it," she said. Members of the slate, who called themselves the "Evergreens," included two past council presidents and others, such as Swift, who rallied support for keeping the tract in its natural condition for tent camping, sailing and canoeing. In November, the board of directors, citing maintenance costs and a decline in campers, voted to sell the property and eventually attracted a $16 million offer but did not act on it. The uproar caused by Scout leaders and county residents opposed to the pristine camp being developed caused the Northumberland Board of Supervisors to tighten land-use controls at the camp and other parcels zoned for conservation in the county. New restrictions approved last month reduce from 210 to 20 the number of building lots that the camp can yield. It remains to be seen what the new council leadership decides for the camp, which has been in the council's hands since 1964. The Evergreen slate was composed of people who either objected to the sale or disagreed with the way the board reached its sale decision without membership discussion. The council sponsors 18,000 Girl Scouts from a district that includes the Northern Neck, Fredericksburg and Richmond. "I feel we're out of the woods -- I think it's safe," said Tracy Hamm, a Duke University graduate student and Camp Kitty alumnus who helped sale critics organize through e-mail. "This is super-exciting." Tracy Coogle, one of the Evergreens voted onto the board, said she missed the annual meeting because she was camping with 140 girls and a couple of dozen adult leaders over the weekend. "Cheers went up all over camp," when word of the election came in, she said. "It was the perfect place to get this news." Contact staff writer Lawrence Latan III at llatane@timesdispatch.com or (804) 333-3461.

When he was called out, he should have been given information on what to bring. Bring that...no more, no less. Ditto what others said about inclement weather...they usually watch for that and have a plan B in mind.

Having most recently been on the Council camp committee, I realize the Camp requires a lot of planning. They need to know how many to plan for, so they can hire staff, order food, stock the trading post, order patches and T-shirts, etc. The Camp Director has no problem imposing deadlines on us, and I will have no problem passing that on. We thought we were doing the scouts a favor by getting them all registered under the Early Bird deadline. Next year, I won't care.

Welcome to the forums, homeschool. Just out of curiosity, do the GS have a rule against shooting BB guns? I have never been a GS leader, but I married a girl scout. From what I've read, males are actively discouraged from being primary GS leaders, and the female leaders are less likely to want to do the "manly" things that girls seem to want to do. When it comes to heat, cold, dirt, sweat, snakes, bugs, and other discomforts, the GS leaders opt out. GS camps are being remodeled to include air conditioned cabins, computers and "activity centers", to keep their attendance up. Meanwhile, the girls are joining Venturing. Is there a message there? Now before I get flamed by the ladies out there, I realize I am speaking in generalities and there are admirable exceptions out there. But on average...