Scoutfish

My personal opinion. Nothing more, nothing less: 95% of the rules in G2SS make perfect sense. The results that the rules are trying to avoid may not happen. MAY NOT. But they MIGHT. Just because I drive on a highway does not meanI will get into a wreck. And the chances are great I will not need my seatbelt. But I MIGHT need it IF I get into a wreck. IF I get into a wreck, that seatbelt will MOST LIKELY be more of a benefit than a detractor to my well being. The kicker is, I have no way of knowing when that wreck that COULD happen, will happen. So better to just wear the seatbelt right? Well, I guess that is the case in at least 95% of the rules , if not more. But the other part? Like laser tag or shooting at a target of a duck or even a standard human sillouette target....well, that's just PC. Those rules make as much sense as a school with a no exceptions policy suspending a couple of kindergarten boys for pointing finger and saying: "pow - pow!" while playing cops and robbers. The idiot who somehow translatted that into a serial killer must be one of those govt funded job positions that has to justify their job! Now, in my area, alot, and I do mean alot of cub scouts hunt. they may not "legally" own their guns, but the own them: .22, .270., 30-06, .410 guage, .12 guage..etc. These boys wil go into thw woods with dad or grandad and spend all day until they shoot a der, turkey, hog, or whatever....yet cannot shoot a bb gun unless it's at a Council camp. These same kids can play lawn darts, take chances in a public school, or ride in a chartered bus on an interstate, live in a bad neighborhoo, or go freaking scuba diving d...but cannot shoot a laser tag gun at each other? PC: Nothing more, nothing less. "Sorry son, can't shoot the BB gun at our next den meeting, but tell you what, how about we buy you a new lever action 30-06, with the best scope ever for when we go hunting next weekend?"

Short, Sigh.....Thats the one thing I hate about being online: Can't hear that sarcasm. I'm behind you on it though!

The way we "usually" do it is similar to what ScoutNut said: The speaker will walk to the front of the CO and stand on the raised stage area in front of the altar and give the Cub Scout sign. Depending on the level of noise or wether people notice the scout holding up the Cub Scout sign. The CM ( myself) or our ACM will shoput "Signs up!" At that point, the caler will ask the audience to rise for collors, give all commands to the color guard, and lead the pack in reciting the Pledge of Allegience. The caler then dismisses the color guard. BUT! When we do an outdoor ceremony, and the audience is typically standing around the flag pole in a nearly complete circle, the caller usually positions himself at the back of the color guard , and gives all commands from there. Since there is no raised area and there is no "front" of the audience, the caller stands in an area that the color guard can hear him better. So far, behind them works good.

Are you sure you're not talking about the IRS? Well, even though I haven't taken WB, I do know some Wood Badgers who are the coolest people I know. But I also know some who are jerks. The "elitist" mentality can strike anybody..including Wood Badgers. As a former Firefighter, I helped teach a few classes, taught some on my own, and observed some other teaching. Some instructors come off as arrognat "you are so lucky to have me as an imnstructor" snobs. Others are almost like your best friend. Can be any group of people anywere. My ACM took Wood Badge , years ago. He knows most every person in the surrounding 3 councils. He does not have a high opinion of Wood Badge because ( to loosely qoute him) "The high society scout leaders are drawn like moths to flames to Wood Badge. Only one worthwhile Wood Badger out of 10 in it". My ACm is 100 percent for the boys - will sing or dance in a moment kind of guy, most charasmatic fun loving guy I ever met.

Shortridge, no offense, but "Don't forget your fresh air-breathing, trail-hiking, animal-watching and mud puddle-stomping privileges, too. " In my area, most sticks are found in the fresh air breathing ( outdoors) , trail hiking ( outdoors through trees), mud puddle stomping ( parts of trails in the trees that are wet) area. The thing we do is tell the kids right up front that they have to be carefull and no swinging, jousting, stabbing, swordfighting,etc with the sticks or they get taken away. But keep in mind, the kids are not playing with sticks INSTEAD of hiking, trails or being outdoors...they are getting the sticks WHEN they go hiking, on trails and outdoors. And when it is time for a campfire, well..that's just a handy place to put all the confiscated sticks as well as keep the boys busy by having them hunt for more sticks for the fire.

We kill two birds with one stone. We hold or cake bake at our annual Christmas party. But we call it a "Parent/ Son Cookoff" The goal is to make the colest dessertthat will be judges under : Most creative Most original Best tasting We give out 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place ribbons in each catagory and also have a grand prize trophy of overall winner. The judges are selected fromour Co, but who do not have kids in the pack. They cut a minimal sliver for the taste test. Afterward, the cakes are sold for a fair price. Anywhere fron $5.00 to $25.00 ( depending on if it wins or not). All procedes are sent to a battered womens shelter. Thing is, the kids are focused on ribbons and how cool the cakes are. noyt how much money their cake made. Plus it's also the Christmas party, so they are running around stuffed full of sugary desserts that weren't part of the cookoff.

As far as I am "aware" of it, this may be one of the easier things to head up. In our coucil, the scout office/shop has the yellow door hangers. They will pass them out to CM's and Sm's at Roundtables or any othet council/distric meeting. Or we can go by the scout office and pick them up. Pass them amongst your leaders a few weeks before they are to be distributed. Talk about it at te Pack/Troop meeting. One thing we do, since our CO charters a Pack, a Troop and a Ship, is to get each unit head together to map out areas so we don't double trouble any residents. Our Troop Sm and a handful of Boys collect any gathered food later in the afternoon of collection day at a community center. To be honest, I do not know where it goes from there: SA, Food Kitchen, Red Cross? First thing I would do is call the DE or SE and ask for some door hangers. All the info ,plus a handy dandy free Micky D's coupon is on it!

My bad. I just edited my OP to include this. What I meant was would there be a benefit to the pack and my Webelos Leaders if I take it? I do plan on the Webelos leaders...especially the 2nd year Webelos Leaders taking it as it helps withcrossing over and preparing for Boy Scouts. But is there a benefit to me..the CubMaster...taking it?

I have a question to ask It may be a dumb question, it may be a good question. Not sure which it is, but I do know it is a question! Right now I am Cub Master of my son's pack. He is a first year Webelos. He plans to cross over into Boy Scouts. I say he plans as I am not gonna force him to do it. Anyways, I am not, nor will I ever be a helicopter parent. And as I have explained to my wife, Boy Scouts is where we step back and let our son figure things out on his own and spread his wings - to fly for himself. Sure, I suppose I will be going on the occasional campout to sit WAY BACK and observe...but that would be more of my wifes doing than mine! I plan on sticking with the Cub Master position. So, my question is this: As a Cub Master, and NOT AS A Webelos Den Leader or as a parent who has no plans ( as of right now) to being a part of the troop leadership.....would taking IOLS AS A CUBMASTER be of any practical benefit to the pack, to me ,or to our Webelos leadership.... if I - THE CM - take it? Edited for clarification (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Yeah, what ScoutLass and Jblake said! Boys are drawn to sticks like flies to poop. It's just a natural boy thing. One thing we do as adults and as leaders is tell them it's okay to have a stick as long as they are carefull, do not swing them, or hit/poke/touch each other with them. If we see a scout pushing it, te leaders give a LOUD STERN warning that the scout is about to lose his stick This works for about 5 minutes...just long enough for him to forget he lost his stick, and also time for the next scout to take a turn at losing his. By now though, we have a fire going and we tell them that to have a better fire, they should toss their sticks in. That solves two problems: 1) no more swinging/poking sticks. 2) Every kid is either looking for more sticks for the fire instead of fighting with them AND they start creating a pile of fire wood. They start out with the tiniest twings and somehow it develops into a competition of who can drag the biggest tree to the fire. Now comes the second problem: They al want to have a stick that is on fire at the end. We tell them it's okay as long as the end of the stick stays within the bounderies of the fire pit. If it comes out, you lose the stick! Of course, you always have one or two scouts who are so mesmerized by the stick on fire...they end up being oblivious to the rest of the world. This is where we get the parents to step in. We tell mom and dad that we can take sticks away if somebody gets burnt, but we can't take away the burn. So far, that has worked out well so that leaders can concentrate on whatever they were talking about/teaching without having to spend more time being safety watch than teaching. But you will always have at least one scout you have to get on. That's just normal.

Can you post it, or a link to it here. As a CubMaster, there are very, very few CM minutes, so I have to adapt alot of SM minutes to the cubs age level.

Heres a thought Bart, I used to be an Asst Chief of a fire dept. I had training out the wazoo. Certified as a level III firefight in NC. That was as high as you could go -as far as firefighter certification. Had my E.M.T, CEVO, EVOC, Haz-Mat, Aircraft fire& Rescue, wildfire supprression, Communicable diseases prevention, etc...... Thing is, just like in your case, practicing and DOING it every day did not always mean we would just know about changes, updates, modifications. I used to teach new firefighters how to run the pump on the engine,. I also taught them how to use the cascade system ( air bottle filler) . You'd think if I did that, I could teach them the simpler stuff, no? You ever hear of the fire triangle? Heat- Fuel - Oxygen? Turns out that I kept on teaching that ..years after it was changed to the Fire tetrahedron. Fuel, Heat, Oxygen - chemical reaction. No, it didn't cgange how fire burned or how ewe put it out. Matter of fact, the only thing it did change was having to buy new boks! but one the rescue side, look at CPR, They change that every 5 or 6 years. Matter of fact, they are in the process of changing it right now. So, in your case, the laser tag probablyt wouldn't mean anythuing, but let the DE or SE find out you did it on the same day his car broke down, his wife and he had a fight and his son brings home a failing report card. What would he do? I'd test out too, if I was you, but I would inquire about refresher or update courses that could take the place of the main class/course. Instead of the full original class/course, see if they have one that is just an hour or two that just covers new changes/policies.

Yeah, I can acept that Gary. You might be limiting a new scout to only 3 camping trips a year, but in reality, I read posts all the time in this site about troops that are lucky to go camping once a year. Sure, some may go twice a month....all year long. Others don't go but every couple of years. So to say that your first years scouts need to polish up on a few things before camping more than some trops do in 4 years combined - well, I just don't see the harm. And the kicker is, not every boy scout is the same. many of them just came from Webelos where they had helicopter parents, the adults ran every activity right down to when to take a bathroom break and such. So 3 camping excursions a year without mom and dad, and without 1,000 adult rules.....that could be overwhelming. Gary, if that policy works for you..I see no problem with it!

"What fundamental values of the BSA is the policy contrary to?" Well, maybe the policy of non discrimination? Not necessarily in such a bold way, but it's there. BSA does not want scouts to make fun of, exclud or discriminate against people because of their ethnic background, socio-economic background or geographical diversity. Matter of fact, BSA even takes a non-denominational approach inn that they do not support or "publically" push one religion over another..yet, the fight over homosexuality is at least 99% a religious one. So in that effect, BSA does discriminate against religions that have a tolerance towards homosexuality. Personaly, I have said that having a gay leader is not a concern..but having one talk about his preferences ( I do not believe being gay is a concious choice , mind you)is not something I want , condone or would allow. BUT... I would not allow that for a heterosexual adult leader either. Talking about sexual preferences in the Pack, troop, crew, or ship setting is not what I expect or nor would I allow. Now, before it was mentioned that you show it by how you live, such as a wife dropping you off, picking uyou up. While I cannot speak for every scout every where....when mom comes to pick our scouts, the first thing they think is : "Aww man! We were just playing a good game!" To say you are making a statement...well, having the kids would be the first statement, no? As far as talking about it, I tink it's safe to say we mean actually talking about it. And like I said, I don't want either sexual persuasion talking about their conquests, what they did that weekend, who they "plowed". I do not want a straight , divorced male leader talking about what he did at the office party or how many women he picks up each month no more that I want the gay one to talk about what he did. Now, as for a problem with gays in BSA..is it? Is it really? The only ones we would know about are the ones who stand up and refuse to hide it ( which I can't say I blame them) or those who do hide it and so far...nobody has found out yet. But you wouldn't jknow those guys would you...so maybe it's not a problem having gays in BSA, but just the flamboyant ones? But to go that route, we have a guy at my company who we describe as "The gayest straight man we know". If not for the fact of his close strong marrage, we'd have thought him gay, because he just seems...well,really, really pretty feminine. Think of people who have come out of the closet. Sure, with some of them, you accepted it years ago even if they denied it. Others were a true and genuine shock to you because you had no idea because they didn't act like it ..at least not in a stereotypical way. But now, I am not trrying to change anybody's policies. I knew those poluicies when I joined BSA as an adult leader. I didn't jopin because of it's exclusion, or a need to fight it. I joined because I agree with about 99% of the program , which is pretty damn good compared to my agreement with most other things in this world. I may not agree with a few things, but all the other stuff outweighs it by far!

I think you are wise to look for a new troop. There are a few reasons that I think this, but the biggest of them all is" "She told us newer parents not to talk to each other in the parking lot because we will give each other bad information." Really? Bad info? Or maybe you might agree that something smells bad or is not being done right? Sounds like some good ole boy mentality to me.

Actually, it wasn'r " a majoritry" but it was : "First off, your first indication of a severe allergic reaction may be the victim passing out.: And in that case, you do not have to rely on every single scout being a seasoned. board certified alergy specialist, but just bing aware that the peanut allergic scout has the allergic reastion. So they eat dinner, the scout in question starts acting funny, distressed or passes out...well, the ones who are aware check and find out there was peanut oil in dinner can then give the shot becuase............... They were made aware of the allergy and know what to do. No, scouts are not perfect mentally mature EMS providers....But they don't sit around and ponder the consequences of lawsuits, PC mentality, or who has the brightest shoulder loops either. Reminds me of my CPR training I took during my Emergency Medical Technician. The CPR is actually taught by the Red Cross, and not the Office of Emergency Management as the rst of the course is. Anyways, the instructors mentioned that many people wil sit and watch a person in cardiac arrest die just because they are not sure they can help. Truth is, the best CPR is only 22% effective ( okay, as all other stuff, numbers may have changed with better research). Soconsidering what odds you are working with, doing anything is still better than doing nothing. You may be doing it wrong, but even then, there may be a 5% chance of helping out. If you just stand there, I garanntee you have 0% chance of heloping out. Now think about various stories you read about how this scout or that scout saved somebody's life when everybody elsestod around in shock or just not knowing what to do. Don't sell the scouts short.

Basement, yeah, That's what I am talking about. Her son is a Tiger, so to say this is the worst pack so far...she's played this game before. Done the same thing with her first son, possibly second, concieveably her third? If she's been through a bunch of packs...it seems like she's not accepting the answers she's getting ,and waiting to find one that allows her to just leave at a whim.

Jm, I think You said that pretty well. I might add that in non-LDS Co's , some of those Co's want a program that, if for no other reson, it looks good PR wise, so they open the doors to the first group of folks who want to start/run/ work a BSA unit. Not all mind you, but plenty , I'm sure. We get a dry warm building to meet in, they can say they are doing something for the youth. Maybe we even see each other more than the annual Scout Sunday, no?

I'd rather call him a police officer who just happend to be a Boy Scout leader. Nah, doesn't make any difference in the severity of his crimes , nor does it make it easier on the victems. But lets don't act like he was a professional, paid 24/7 scouter who just happend to work 3 or 4 hours a week as a police officer. The way it is written makes it sound like that EVERY sigle adult leader from Cubs all trhe way to Venturer knew about and condoned it. Like we all sit back and give each other "good ole boy" smiles when one gets caught. He's a sick person. Who also got involved with scouting before he got caught. Caught being key as it enforces that his actions were not condoned or smiled upon by BSA, any other leader or the public. He easily could have been a band director, Movie Director, museum director, teacher, lawyer, judge, or just about any other career person, who gets his by molesting boys. But that just doesn't sound as juicy does it?

I agree with this in some ways, but in other ways, I'd say: " Yes, it is my buisness! " No, I shouldn't concern myself with every single thing that other DL does, That would mean that I am ignoring my den, right? And that would be just as bad! But at the same time, as a DL, that means I am a prt of the leadership of the pack, and as a prt of that leadership, I have a responcibility to the whole pack, not just my own den, or my own kid(s). Notice that the very forst word typed by the original poster( Manyhats) was the word : "We've". Not "I". To me, that sounds like at least two, but could mean many more - especially as it sounds like a policy idea that is being kicked around. THE LAW OF THE PACK The Cub Scout follows Akela. The Cub Scout helps the pack grow. The pack helps the Cub Scout grow. The Cub Scout gives goodwill. The leadership let's the pack lose boys and maybe let's the pack die because they should mind their own buisness? As leaders, we are supposed to help all the boys. We are supposed to help the pack grow and be the best pack it can be. No, I do not think it's my buisness to go over every detail of what another DL does, nor give my critique of it. But if I know he's boring his kids to tears and they may drop out..then YES!, It is my buisness as part of the pack leadership to ( at the very least) take the DL aside and tell him what I see. SOme friendly suggestions are in order. The next step is to talk to the CM about my concerns as it is the CM's job to seek out,establish, and maintain those leaders. So, it's not a flat-out simple black and white answer.

Irsap, COOL! Thing is, if you really enjoy it...is it work? In my new role as CubMaster, I am the one who goes to every meeting early, and I am the last one to leave. I set up tables, fetch the dry erase board( no extra room in the CO, so it's in the scout shed out back), I greet everybody, lay out a tble of paper work at the entrance - upcoming event flyers, adult/youth scout applications, any and all flyers for pow wows, trainings, activity consent forms, etc... I answer questions all night long from parents whan I am not helping the den leaders. At campouts, I start setting up a day or so early. I set up the "kitchen" and dining hall. I get the fire site ready. I make sure proper equipment is in place. I also hapen to pull the scout trailer too. No, I do not have to do al of this. No, nobody expects me to. I do it because I enjoy it. I love running the campfire ceremonies, I love hiking with the scouts. I laugh and joke with them all the chances I get. I love to teach them how to work with pockets knives, tying ropes, making fires, learning about all different kinds of things ( any subject - though none come to mind right now) . So, is it work? WEll, I'm still trying to decide!

Yeah, gotta go with Beavah here: There are times you may not want others to know about something: Wind burn on your bottom from a all bean weekend, maybe you got a cold sore from kissing the dog, or a wart from just not taking a bath often enough. But that stuff doesn'tkill you. Me personally, I'd rather an educated and infromed scout try to help my son that have a bunch of people standing around looking at my blue faced son if he were on the ground not breathing. Funny thing about embarassment - it means you are not only alive, but also mentally aware!

Baden, In hopes that I might actually understand Gary, I'm gonna attempt to answer those 4 questions. Of course, I am only doing to to mostly see for myself if 1) I understand Gary, 2) To possibly clear up a toe-may-toe vs tah-ma-toe arguement that I think is happening. I have no doubt Gary will point out any errors I have...and I gladly accept those corrections. BadenP askes: 1)The main/primary purpose of the LDS scouting program is to prepare young men to achieve the Aaronic Priesthood? *I'm gonna say no. That is not the purpose of a LDS scouting program. The reality is that the LDS youth program's purpose is to help young men achievethe Aaronic Priesthood. And the LDS's recognize the powerfull tool that Scouting can be to reach that goal. Scouting is but one of many tools that LDS utilize to reach that goal. 2)Incorporated into the troop meetings are rituals and rites that are not scouting but recognizing a boy reaching certain stages toward priesthood and are recognized as part of their scouting advancement? *No, but why not? In my pack, we say grace before meals. hold scouts own, and do what our culture does sometimes..including applause, silence, pledge of Allegiance to the flag. If we were Muslim, we might stop at certain times to pray to Allah. If we were bhuddist, we might stop and take our shoes off before the flag ceremony. Maybe we don't do a flag ceremony depending on who our CO is. So it's not that a rite is incorporated ointo a scout meeting, but that the individual happens to do a normal ( to his belief rite) while also participating in a scout meeting. Kinda like saying "God bless you!" to a person who has sneezed even if they are athiest..it's who you are, not WHAT you are doing or WHERE you are when you did it. 3) An LDS scout can still achieve scout ranks without attending meetings or campouts IF they are doing work for the church and the goal of priesthood? *Probably more like the exception that non-LDS troops and packs follow when the youth from those packs miss meetings due to other obligations - wether school, sports, church, or family. But remember, scouting is a tool of the LDS youth program, not vice versa. 4) Many LDS scout leaders purposely do not attend district camporees or events because they view mainstream scout units as a bad influence on their boys on their quest to achieving priesthood? * I'm gonna say that the truth is, Many LDS units do not attend district camporees because of other factors that may be in conflict with their religion. For example, I have a co-worker who happens to be a Jehovah's Witness. He will take his child to a school fall fun festival, but not a Halloween festival. He will accept year end work bonuses in December, but not a Christmas bonus. Same thing finacially, but different theologically. So maybe it's not so much what other units do at camporees...but what they don't do....and what the LDS faith needs to doto keep within it's beliefs. Okay Gary...Was I even close?

Well, it's not entirely a bad idea...if you make some changes to the idea and the concept. Forget about a report card. Instead do a survey. A reporet card is either pass or fail, but if that was truely the case, we all failed at one time or another. Instead, think of it as a customer satisfaction survey. Maybe the DL is a little bit dry.Maybe he just reads in a monotone way. Maybe he has no idea the scoutrs are bored to teards. Next pack meeting, explain to ALL the leaders that it is thier job to keep the kids interested in the program and not jusr read from the book. Make it fun, make it exciting, be creative! Then expain to the scouts that not every meeting involves running around, screaming and hollerimng or a field trip. Some times you have to be serious, sit down , and do some work that is not super exciting. In the end, it should all average out. As far as time lines...good and bad. Sure, you need to have a time frame in mind and set your golas to comlete stuff in that time frame. But this isnot work, buisness or law of time. This is scouting, CUB scouting to be more specific. Things do not always go as planned. Things sometimes take longer. PLan on it. One requirement or activity may take twice as long as planned. The next may take half as long as planned. Adapt. UIf your DL is so strict that he cannot waver or adjust, he is not helping the scouts at all. There is a difference between handing him a failing report card and giving a little bit of constructive criticism.

And there it is! The root cause of so many things! Now, I don't mean you specifically Sherm, just in general over the history of people. People of one particular religion would label people of another beliefe as heathens because thet didn't know much at all about it. Take Pagan and Wiccans for example: Old school ( and some modern) Christians called them devil worshipers. People still think Pagan sacrified human in blood rituals. Not true. Pagan don't believe in the devil, Wiccans are earth-force types ..basically hippies and Indians combined. The communities of Olde Salem thought you to be a witch or possesed if they did not understand something. Today, you have Nancy Grace basing the "real news" on people calling in during on air polls. Since when did we take people's opinions - based on no experience or contact with the actual event as the understanding of why? Sherm is right. Non LDS units do not understand how the LDS unit works, how the LDS church works, or how the pack/troop works. So there must just be something wrong , right? Again, I say this: So what? If it works,the boys benefit, and turn out okay...then let it be!