Scoutfish

When we have a pack AOL ceremony, it is a ceremony for the AOL recievers, Not for everybody in the pack who might be getting some award. Otherwise, we'd just call it a pack meeting, not a Pacl AOL Ceremeony. And at the AOL ceremony as wellas the Crossover ceremony, we like and encourage all Cub Scouts to attend and be ready to applaud those who earned their AOL.

Funny, I did not read anywhere in the original post that said that anybody was required to have AOL to cross over. Matter of fact, the original post does not mention crossing over anywhere. This is not a cross over ceremony at all. Simply a distric level recognition of Webelos getting AOL. Not different than a pack doing the exact same thing: The entire pack shows up to recognize and show respect to those who earned their AOL. But at the pack level, Nobody ever says its a bad idea because of those who didn't get it. It's not about those who didn't get it, who bareluy missed getting it, or those who didn't care to get it. It's about those who DID EARN IT! To tell the truth, I think it's cool that a district is taking the time to honor Cub Scouts who did go all the way in Cub Scouts and earn their AOL. Seems like the only district event I hear about other than PWD is popcorn sales, solicitations for FOS, or other money making events. An event that is for nothing other than to say "Way to Go!" to some scouts is awesome. Now,as I read it, I do not think the original post specifically says that troop reps were going to talk only to AOL's. It just says they were there to meet "perspective members and parents". That could be all of the scouts present. Of course, that is probably merely an informal meeting anyways as this is done as part of Requirement #6 of earning the AOL to begin with. I hate that we cannot recognize those who do better than average out of fear we might upset, offend, or bother those who do just average.

We do skits too occasionally. I'd like to see the boys do more skits personally. They shy away if you ask them to, but if you ever get them to do one skit, and they get a laugh..they then pester you to do "just one more skit" ...at least 4 times. We had a few scouts begrudgenly do a skit at council camp. But after it was over, they could not wait til pack camping the next week to do it again plus others!

The biggest issue I have here is that Dalas Cowboys do not play flag football which is required for Cub Scouts! Youth Protection Issue? Possibly. G2SS Violation?...Definantly! LOL!

We sing at least one song, if not two or three. We open witha flag ceremony, and either I or the ACM will say hey or something and ask who is excited/happy to be here tonight? Then no matter how great they cheer, we compare them to a graveyard because it's soooo quiet! Then they yell harder, then harder and so on. Then we say that they have too much energy and we need to burn some off. Sometimes, I'll say something like" Tonight, I was going to show you some magic tricks. The CC gave me some money to buy a magic kit, but I didn't buy that magic kit. Instead...I ...bought...some..Bazooka-zooka Bubble gum! WEll,it'sa great intro to that song anyways. Biggest problem I have is that we are running out of songs. I don't read music, so most books don't help. I have to hear it a few timems to learn it,and most stuff is printed.

Okay, it's a minor detail, but there is a BIG difference - so I want to point out and STRESS that On the occasion that I or the ACM say Signs Up..... We DO NOT shout or yell it. We just say it in a louder than normal voice. Luckily for me( depending how you see it) my waife says I have a loud voice anyways. Again, minor detail, but it does make a difference. Now, on another note, I tghink SSS gets the bigger picture: We can argue minor details or proper ettiquett down to how many steps it takes to exicute a left turn for the bearer of the American Flag. But trhen we are just being way too trivial and missing a bigger picture: As long as the kids learn and show respect to the Colors, then that's all that maters. Kinda like debating wether a person should bow or not during prayer. It really doesn't matter as long as the person is thinking and believing what they are praying to/for/about. Yeah, I do want the boys to show respect during a flag ceremony, but if it's just going through meaningless ( as they percieve it) motions..then who says what, who does what and what the 4th guy in line's title is mean jack crap. But if they truely feel respect and understand what the importance and honor of carrying that flag means, then I'll not get my undies in a bunch if the put the flag on the wrong side. I'll just gently and in a very freindly way, tell him to go to the other side, but meanwhile, he did a GREAT job in trying!

We have 8 active numbers out of 9 den number designations. Each den uses the same number until they cross out. The leaving Webelos Den number goes to next years Tigers. If we lose enough of a particular rank, we go with the den number of the largest den of that rank simply because it takes less work to cange numbers on te roster and paper work. The pack also buys their NEW Den Number patch.

As far as den size, well, You have a Cub Scout Leader Book? THis book will back you up when you tell the parents that a den of 10 boys is pretty much the upper limit. Yeah, so and so may have had 15 boys, but those boys may have been better behaived. Tell the parents that somebody needs to step up to fill in a ADL position..and not just title only. There is no maximum limit to the nuber of ADL's you have either( within reason). If the parenst refuse, tell them they can look for another pack. Bigger picture: The welfare of the ENTIRE PACK trumps the welfare of ONE DEN

Baden, Bar did not say LDS ws the only way. He did say what LDS believed and how they approched their beliefs, but NEVER said that LDS was the only way. But look, I am completely saying this in a "freind to freind" way: The only predjudices I see are yours. You are hearing LDS say that all other religions are wrong when that was never said. You are claiming that several LDS members from different areas are wrong about LDS based on what you saw locally anf what ONE person told you. And you are doing it as an outsider ( meaning non-familar) to LDS, not somebody who really gets it. Do I get everything about LDS? Nope, not hardly! But I also do not make judgement on ALL of BSA, Cub Scouts , Boy Scouts, Venturing, or Crews based on one persons opinion of it. I see on a daily basis that there are hundreds of different ideas about the "right" or "corect" way that BSA is supposed to be run. There are different"absolutely correct" ways to run an EBOR.. For example: Is a boy at an EBOR not in uniform if he doesn't have his book? You can't add to requirements, and the book is NOT listed under Uniform Inspection, but I have read where many trops consider it a part of the uniform. So, the point I am getting at is this: Is it coorect or not? Depends on who you talk to. And who ever that is, may not actually know what is correct, just what their troop deems correct. NOw, I may not be correct in my understanding, but this is what it is: Scouting is a tool used by LDS that helps them in their bigger mission, which is Arionic Priesthood. And that preisthood is actually a tool for a bigger picture, which is living a life in the good graces of God so you go to heaven. But in using scouting for a buigger reason does not mean they change it, or tarnish it in any way. Likewise, as much as I love, enjoy, participate in and work within scouting myself, it is not the end all of all for me. It too is a tool for a bigger picture: Having my son grow up respecting others, doing his part to keep the earth livable, learning to be the best he can while supporting himself, and living within the ideals that will get him to heaven. Now, the only difference I can actually see are the little details between what i believe and what LDS believes. But the goal, mission,plan - what ever you want to call it is the same: We are turning to scouting to HELP our boys during their journey to and getting to the final destination.

That's awesome! Congratulations!

Okay, TWO things need to be done before anything else. ONE: You have arthritis in your knee? Tell them. Explain it. Matter of fact, while you are at it, have a roundup style meeting. You know what I am talking about? Everybody shows up, have Colors, sing a song, make them laugh, then the Den Leaders take the kids outside for fun and games. Meanwhile, you and the CM and the CC talk to the parents. Sounds like a bunch of tiny issues indeed. BUT.... If you don't do and say something about them, they are gonna grow into big issues that you waon't be able to do something about. Now for that arthritis: I am 39 years old and cannot use my right arm the way I want. I cannot throw a ball like I used to. I cannot play frisbee for a long time. I cannot clime a rope anymore. Why? CANCER! It's gone, I'm okay, but the 2 surgeries did a number on me. I have a scar from behind and level with the top of my right ear straight down the side of my neck to my shoulder, then down frontwards to my shouklder blade, then straight across to my Adam's apple. Sometimes the scouts want me to do something that I can't quite do. I tell them I can't. They ask why...I tell them why. They understand AND for some reason..think the scar is really cool! Go figure! So it's time to put the embarassment aside. Arthritis is not a choice you made, it's not something you asked for.I'm pretty damn sure you don't want it! People get it, injuries and issues are a part of life. Soon enough you will stop comparing stories of cars and weekend adventures and start talking about and compariing war stories about this surgery or that scar. Trust me, I am right there and doing it.And doing it while scouting. Nobody has quit nor has the pack suffered from it. If nothing else, think how embarassing a den folding is? So the parents may not understand why you do some things. They never ever will either if you don't tell them why. The only thing they will know is that you "act" in a way other leaders don't. Sure, some parents are arrogant and always see themselves as some sort of exception. But all of them do not have ESP. TRhey cannot read your mind and no explanation from you or no difference in what you do - does not help in any shape way or form! TWO: Time to break out the organazational charts. The ones that show the CO, the COR, the CC, CM?ACM, trainer, leaderships,etc. Show the ranking structure to the parents. Then go over the basic responcibilities of each person right down to parents, their involvement and expectations. Sounds like they do not know the difference between the ACM, CM and DL. Maybe they see the DL as the Entire working part of the pack. Also, this is an awesome time to recruit some parents who want to do more or be in charge of something. Build up your committee, ask/ designate people to chair PWD, B&G, Service, Christmas Party, Advancement, Camping chairs. Just realize, the most important thing is this: You have a problem. Ignoring it, or waiting it out won't wait. Adress it now, but adress it personally with the help of your CM, CC and the DL in question. Oh, by the way, there is nothing wrong with the parents asking their kids be in a den together. Most kids gravatate towards their own friends, familiar faces and people they are comfortable with. If the kids are not comfortable or happy in their den...for whatever reason...then you will lose those kids. The parentrs might have had a little better tact in expressing it, but the idea behind it legit and a sound idea.

JM, except for the marked channels, you could ALMOST wade cmpletely across Pamlico Sound to Hatteras and back to Oriental, Manteo, Cedar Island, etc..

We give them the badges at the pack meeting following the earning of the badge. They earned it, they did the work, and they deserve to be recognized for it. But we do try to take oppertunities to make a big(ger) deal of things. If the B&G is only a week or two past all the cubs earning their rank, we will ask them which time they want to do. But for those who are go-getters and earned it already, we present it at the soonest possible pack meeting following the earning of the rank. At B&G, we will still recognize that scout, plus mention any other electives, arrowpoints, outdoors, LNT ,service projects, etc... that he has earned, almost earned or is working on.

So once we get past all the "encouraged to, most of the time, usually, would like to have, and hope for"'s..It seemslike the very basic known rule is the one concerning 2 deep leadership. Afer that, it seems - in my opinion anyways - that ......."It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult." ...steps up as the next rule. "parent approved adult" So, that could be the DL, or the ( or one of the) ADL's or any other parent who tags along. Now, 2 deep aside, I wouldn't want 1 person being responcible for the entire bunch, but figuring a normal den size and at least 2 if not 3 adults should be fine.

Well, it's not always a clear cut thing is it. Now, for most of us, MANY- not all, - but MANy of the trainings we take are just boring class of common sense or things we already knew: For example: Do not use jet fuel that you brought home from work to light a campfire! Okay, I kid you not - that was actually asked as a question in my BALOO class! I'm pretty, fairly, I hope so - sure that everybody in here is smarter than that! But we also have heard and read about "experienced" and trained in the school of "been there-done that" adult leaders who also think it's okay to have only one adult on a campout because nobody else would show up and it's not fair to the boys who earned the trip. Or the guy who's son swims like a fish so there is no need to wear a life jacket in a canoe that has a 125 HP outboard rigged on the boat with neckers and popsickle sticks. Those "Well experienced" people are why you have to still take trainings. Maybe it is more of a legal "let's don't get sued" issue, but safety is still invovled. Then think about this: Every day, somebody asks a basic scouting question about a rule or what have you that is covered by G2SS. Read the posts that follow: 3 different "experienced experts" will give you 3 different answeres that most likely are not in any type of agreement at all. Most likely, they are contradictory to each other. TRhen the rest of the 32 answers may not completely be wrong, but have enough errors to be worse that just wrong because they sound more right that the real right answers. As long as I do not have to stay in a hotel, overnight, several states away to meet required training, then I'm good with it. So far, with the exception of BALOO, all required trainings in my district/ council are free and some sort of snack and refreshments are provided( if not a full meal) , and are within a reasonable distance. In the end, did any of us expect to be able to be in charge of a bunch of boys just cause we know how to light a big fire?

"or some such attention grabber" like an adult saying "signs up", then turning the show over to a Tiger who WANTS to give the command. Here's the deal: The program isa not for me, not for you,or for any other parent. It is for the boys themselves. So If I can do a little something, and I stress "little", to make it easier for him during his time in the spotlight...during a night that is for the boys to shine, and not for the adults to live through the boys.....then you now what I am going to do. Now, I have no problem agreeing to disagree. To each his own. But trying to impose a "situation ettiquette" ( for lack of a better word) when it only serves the adults........ well,then it's missing the whole point of Cub Scouts - which is for the boys. We can't have a "be perfect right from the begining ( based on our adult standards) or be pushed aside" attitude. We are there to teach, mentor,and enable them. That includes a little trial and error. A little bit of room for those who are deemed "less than gregarious" than "WE" would like them to be. Time to develop both their confidence and voice. That's why we are here! That's our job. I am the Cub Master, also known as the ringmaster or Emcee of pack meeting. Now,here is something from the new cubmasters guide that really stood out to me. " A chance to help boys learn good citizenship and help shape them into men with strength of character who are sensitive to the needs of others The opportunity to make a difference in the lives of boys as they grow strong in mind and body "shape them into men with strength of character who are sensitive to the needs of others." Or we could push them aside and be the color guard caller ourself? Maybe,or maybe not, but there could be a time whan a young man or possibly even an adult says: " I remember when CunMaster Fisher called out and everybody heard me give the command to the color guard, I was proud of everybody hearing me give the commands!" Just saying, those boys know and can tell when they are being brushed aside. It never feels good when you get pushed aside because you weren't good enough. But had a person..such as a CM or ACM just got everybody quiet, then they would hear that you were godd enough to call orders to the color guard. Again, we will just have to agree to disagree and get on to the next arguement!

The first step would be to dump the party system. SAs it is right now, people have so much blind loyalty to a party just because it's one or the other. The Republican govt put us in a bind over 6 years ago, Then when the Democratic Govt took power, the republicans refused to help or go along with anything Obama or the rest of the dems said. If the Dems said fire was hot, the Republicans would swaer trhat fire was cold just for spite! But the Dems are no better. When the republican Govt gained power, the dems refused to go along with anything either. Ive seen kindergarteners get along more respectfully than that! But that's just a start. Now, along the lines of what Eamonn first said: "While it kinda seems clear to me that the voters were trying to send a message to the politicians at both the State and the National level." I do not think it's so much about wanting Republicans in power or Democrats in power. It's about telling any self serving idiot in power that if he/she ignores us, we will toss them out! I heard a few ads by both parties stating that " Candidate "X" doesn't have experience in government!" Well, my thinking is this: Experience doesn't seem to be working, so why not give the new guy a chance? Could he really make it much worse?

Just saying, don't be so uptight over a very minor and non-issue detail. As BSA leaders, we are there for the boys. I am there for a Collor Guard Caller *IF* need be. I have no remorse, no qualms nor do I apologize for it! And the scouts seem to feel better about it!

I disagree! I would say it is far more counter productive to have a Cub Scout try to give comands when he can not be heard by the color guard OR the audience ..because when he gives the command, his voice is no louder or different sounding that all the rest of the Cub Scouts. Now, it seems that the assumption is that the entire pack shows up at exactly the start time of the pack meetings and therefore know to stare straight ahead and without noise. But in THE REAL WORLD, scouts and parents show up a bit early, socialize, fellowship and just enjoy one another while waiting for the pack meeting to start. We do not have a giant "Minutes left til start of pack meeting" countdown clock hanging up in the front of the sanctuary either. So, like I originally said: "Depending on the level of noise or wether people notice the scout holding up the Cub Scout sign." Not : "This is what we always and only do. Now, I also said: "At that point, the caler will ask the audience to rise for colors, give all commands to the color guard, and lead the pack in reciting the Pledge of Allegience". That is the start of our pack meeting! Only ***IF*** the audience is TOO LOUD do we have myself or the ACM say signs up in a loud voice. Most of the time, we do not have to. But in the few occasions we do that, I'd rather say signs up than see a scout lose confidence while he is standing there being unintentionally ignored. Do not forget, this is CUB SCOUTS I am talking about, not Boy Scouts at troop meetings, or adults at round tables. Nope, talking about a child who may only be 6 years old and does not have the same level confidence that you or I have, and that sometimes, even in a completely quiet room, who's voice may not be heard 3 rows back because as he is only a CUB SCOUT...and is shy. These boys are shy when talking to another adult while their parent is right beside them, much less staring down a room full of people! I suppose I should just say shy boys are not allowed to take part in any color guard ceremonies huh? I suppose that would not be counter productive to the program or boys? Yeah, I'm being a bit sarcastic, but I can't help it since it seems that the ones who are not actually dealing with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th grade boys anymore ( like you forgot what it's like)are the ones who just took what I said was an "IF" scenario as a "We always do it" scenario. Remember, these are not SPL's. PL's or any other older boys with a POR. These are young boys who are learning and preparing for the day when they are older, more experienced and not only brave and confident enough...but loud enough to bark out orders like drill instructors. Acco, although I quoted one of your lines, this responce was not directed at or to only you or your post. It was directed to everybody who seems bent out of shape an adult speaks at an adult led, adult guided, adult helping kids event. I constatnly see posts and replies of KIS-MIF, yet, simple is blasted and having a scout stand there with his sign up for - in his point of view - hours. Sure it may only be 3 or 4 minutes, but to a scout, it seems longer. Now, reading post after post of troops adding requirements, DL's and committees changing rules at a whim, leaders who are concerned just for their kids only...gosh, whip me with chains and barbed wire for letting people know that a CUB scout is about to stand up in front of EVERYBODY and start our pack meeting in a very brave and solomn way.

I love night hikes! Granted, ours are done on the Cub level and not Boy level. First thing we do is tell everybody that NO LIGHTS ALLOWED! No exceptions! Okay a few leaders have flashlights in their pockets in case of an accident or unexpected emergency, but do not use them just for hiking. Before we hike, we explain how you can only see a limited area that happens to be lit up when using lights, but go without them, and your eyes will adapt after a few moments - and you can see a bigger, wider longer area all around you without the lights. Then we talk about looking slightly to the side of what you want to see instead of staring directly at it. Talk about yellow eyes in the trees and greenish one on the ground: all visible if you are lucky and paying attention. Mostly if you are clam and quiet. Then right before we set out, one last bit of advice: If you feel something crawl across your foot, there is no need to scream since if you stay calm, it will probably only bite you once! Then we hike. Any time you come to a clearing, take advantage of looking ar stars or the sky. Point out constellations or even have a telescope set up in a clearing. Maybe pick a clearing and tell about a local haunt story. We talk about "The Devil's Stomping Grounds" in Siler City, NC. We tell them if they think we are making it up..then google it. The site(s) are vague enough that they never know for sure! Then talk about and re-emphasize the buddy system and it's importantance.

let me clarify: Notice, the first I said : "Depending on the level of noise or wether people notice the scout holding up the Cub Scout sign." let me put emphasis on "DEPENDING" and on "WETHER PEOPLE NOTICE". THis is at a pack meeting. The start of the meeting to be exact. Parents are talking to kids and other parents. Kids are talking to other kids and parents. There is noise, and most people are looking at the people they are talking to. Now, I could expect everybody to c0ome into the CO, go straight to the sanctuary and stare straight at the front of the room in a solomn and muted manner. But this is the real world. People are talking, enjoying fellowship and having fun. Imagine that!...having a good time. Now, we could let the Color Guard Caller stand up front for 10, 15, or even 20 minutes waiting until people look forward and notice him.... OR Myself ( the CM) or the ACM "CAN" say "signs up" in a clear loud voice ...."Depending on the level of noise or wether people notice the scout holding up the Cub Scout sign." DEPENDING, not always and automatically.

Well, I wouldn't lay too much blam on the council. They have records of what is turned in to them. If a pack started up, but then everybody dropped out or left for other packs...might be recharter time before the council finds out. As for council knowing meeting times...the individual packs can and do change that from year to year. No way the council has time to keep up with that. BUT...The council should be able to tell you what packs are registred/chartered, and where their CO is located and who the last person listed as Cub Master was. That info could be old, or changed, but it'sa start. One thing I notice that doesn't get pointed out ar roundups: You are not limited to any pack in any area. You are perfectly able to drive past two packs if you like the way the 3rd one is run. You can cross council and district lines if you want. More gas burned, but still your choice. Only costs you $1.00 to transfer from one unit to another.

Another difference: At Council camp, the instructor would tell the boys to pick up the bb guns, chek the safety, cock and remove safety, then fire their shots. At our campout, we gave every single boy - regardless of experience, a short demo on the safety, how to hold the gun , how to cock/load it, and to always leave the safety on until AFTER it was pointed at the target and ready to fire. After you fire, put the safety on befoore you lower it from pointing at the target. Now, granted, I do realize that not every pack has the brains to do this, so I honestly don't have an issue with that being a rule. But laser tag? Seriously? These are not the lasers used to cut steel, target missles or anything of that nature. Never heard of a kid getting eye damage from over doing it at laser tag. BB guns, I understand because not every person will take the precautions. But laser tag? The biggest issue I can see is a kid who is so hyped up, he becomes irritating!

Let me expand on that: BB Guns for example. Can only shoot them at Council events - well district too, but our district only does B gun at council events - so basically the same thing in my case. At BSA camp, we had 1 adult who was running the BB gun range with the help of a 1st class scout. I have no doubt about thayt scouts ability, but still, under 18 years old. Looked to be maybe 13 or 14, but wouldn't bet a dollar on it. The instructor is also watching a line of 50 scouts while simutaneously watching and instructing the 8 boys who are on the firing line, with their dads. The dads think since they are male, they are automatically qualified NRA master marksmen or something. They create more safety violations in 5 mins that almost all the Cub Scouts combined. After ALL the Cub Scouts shot their 10 rounds,and everybody set their guns down, the scouts and parents were handed a new target to pin up when they - the scouts went onto the range to retrieve their own target. Not sure who watched the scouts who were retrieveing - the instructor or the 1st class scout, but whoever it was, the other was watching the new boys who were being let to the firing positions. Now in comparison, the year we had BB gun at our pack campout, we had a NRA certified trainer, and 7 dads with extensive ( and practical)( police, instructors, wildlife resouce officers) knowledge of BB guns and firenarms. Now let me go ahead and explain..Our Camping Chair said that he checked and it was okay to have BB gun at a pack campout due to our NRA trained leader.. I was also only a parent back then and didn't know that it wasn't allowed. We since discoverd that the camp chair ( who is no longer with us) lied or "misunderstood" what the SE said. But, when we did happen to "don't intentionally break the rules" we had only 3 boys shoot at a time, and had an individual adult leader with each boy, an instructor and a seperate designated range safety officer...for a total of 5 adult leaders per 3 scouts shooting. We fetched the targets to keep all scouts off the range. Now, compare the two scenarios, think about the safety factors. The only difference I can possibly come up with: we had to pay $60 per scout and go to a Council camp to be safe in shooting bb guns.

Nah, we follow the rules , or at the very least - don't intentionally break them. But just because we follow them, does not mean they are good rules, make any sense or are of any actual value.