Scoutfish

"Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner good BB gun shooting techniques, including eye dominance, shooting shoulder, breathing, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through." Well, having time to think about it, I can see where this could be taken differently by different people. Trust me, the range instructor is watching all the boys the entire time he is shooting. Matter of fact, did you notice that the rangemaster or his assistant ( if he had one) also would telltose who were waiting their turn to keep the noise down, no horseplay or running around? Demonstrating does not specifically mean that each scout has a one on one session with the instructor. It also means that the scout does what he is supposed to do, and the instructor or rangemaster happens to observe him while he is doing it. I mean, while this was all going on, did you notice at any time at all, if the instructor ever told the ALL boys to stop because one scout may have been doing something wrong or appeared to be in the process of "fixing to" do something less than safe. Just saying, could you imagine the line, the delays and the mood around the BB gun range if each scout had to stand in line and individually demonstrate to the instructor what he was supposed to be doing? Too many scouts would NEVER get the chance to shoot.

Well, if a Dl is doing the bare minumum, then technically, I suppose he is doing his job. But I feel like "that" kind of friction is needed. Pretty much good ole competition! If he feels inadequate about his program , he needs to step it up. If he's doing a great job...he has nothing to worry about. But if a pack has a person who is willing , enthuses and trained wanting to step up - that's a GREAT problem to have! If it causes friction with the other DL..then he is the issue!

I know you are probably joking, but NEVER hold a license hostage to Eagle. Had 2 different friends who were in that situation: One got his Eagle, got his license and immediatly dropped out because he now despised what he used to love because it became a leverage tool for dad instead of scouting for jr. The other called the parents bluff and dropped out of scouting and waited til he was 18 to get his license. Also, I wanted to mention a 3rd possibility: Become a Den Leader yourself. Sound like you are motivated, a real go getter and don't wait around for cobwebs to grow. My Webelos I son and his friends ( well pretty much all Webelos ) have an unending supply of energy! They need to burn it off!

Because the DE is an awesome salesman! he went to my son'sschool and he sold scouting in the time he was given. Took my son to sign up. Thought what I heard was pretty good sounding. Having fun, adventure, making freinds, going camping and all that stuff....what's the down side? But then you have the stuff the DE doesn't tell the boys ( at least directly) ... Good maners, respect, patriotism, God, family and country. Self reliant, go getter, pride in your work,etc.. Again, how can you go wrong with that? Or UI suppose he could become the future world champion video game playing couch potato! Me? Well, the good feeling you get from helping the boys and a campout or two later...I found out I liked it too!

Barry...

LOL! Elementary school is way tougher than it used to be. My 4th grade son's math alone is asstounding: "Write a word problem and corrulating word picture to associate the following problem: 214 X 83 SAY WHAT? What happened to just using multiplication to solve the answer? Now you have to write a sentance and draw a picture too?

Depth perception! Two eyes are better than one. If you ever have to wear a patch over one eye for medical reasons, most Dr's will ask you to get a ride home, or take extra time and driver really slow because you lose a signifigant amount of depth perception...even if you don't realize it.

"Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner good BB gun shooting techniques, including eye dominance, shooting shoulder, breathing, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through" Do let's break it down here: 1) "Demonstrate to your leader or adult partner..." In this case, it most likely means the BB range instructor, because this activity is restricted to ccouncil or distric camps. 2) "..good BB gun shooting techniques ..." Did he take any amount of time to site the target, or did he just aim in the general direction and fire without looking through the sites? Being that he is a Wolf, and not an older Boy Scout or even an adult - If he didn't purposely point the gun directly at your face while loading, talking or pretending to be John Wayne.. Then for his age, he actually is demonstrating based on his maturity level. 3)"...including eye dominance..." Did he keep both eyes open? Did he shut one while looking with the other?Is he left eye dominant while right hand dominant? 4)"....shooting shoulder..." Did he bring the butt of the stock up against his shoulder or did he tuck it under his arm/ hold it so it free floated? And if he did...did anybodt bother to show him the correct methood or did they just let him keep doing it wrong? 5) "..breathing..." Yeah, at this age, this is a toug one. Most people do not hear about this unless they are watching the History Channel talking about snipers. 6)".... sight alignment..." Dids he use the sight right? Kinda hard to tell. There is no way for you to see down the sight correctly and for him to do it at the same time. Basically, you have no way of knowing. 7)"....trigger squeeze..." All I can say is that- that is mostly a joke. The BB guns used by our council camp are Red Rider BB guns. They are spring air. Mostly spring. The triggers are narrow,they are very stiff and hard to pull. Could be the design of the gun, could be lack of prpoer maint, or just wear and tear. Point is, the kids exert ALOT of force and pressure to try to pull..yes I said pull, not squeeze the trigger. The kids are lucky they can jerk or snatch the trigger, much less perform a nice even squeeze. Personally, I'd completely ignore this one. 8) ".....follow through...." This one may just be worded in a way that has me lost. Do they mean he doesn't turn around , oblivious that he's still holding the gun and ends up pointing it at you, the guy beside you or behind you? Does he shoot, then drop the gun and run to his target oblivious of any other shooters on the range? Does he set the safety before reloading it or setting it down when done? Nowlastly: There are two ways to look at beltloops. As another opertunity to test your child or as they were intended, recognition for your son taking the time to participate in another activity. Belt loops are not a certification, nor are they a license. They are just a "participated in" recognition. Deny that belt loop and you are doing a greater disservive that you think there would be by him getting it. You will send a message of: You wasted your time and failed!"(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Not being a Scout myself, my opinion is limited at best. But working with Cubs does...somewhat..present similar situations. We might have a den meeting inside to show the boys different types of knots. Might have some posters, pictures, looking in the book, etc... But at some point, we want to see the boys show they know them too. Now, I guess since I work with my Webelos son, I can't really say for the Tigers, Wolves or Bears. But after going over the knots with the boys, we take them outside. Let them try a few applications. Maybe see what they do at the next campout. Granted, our dining fly is actually a tarp pulled over a fitted aluminum frame. Uses those short bungie cord/ ball fastener thingys. But we let theboys taught line the frame to either stakes or cinderblocks. I guess it comes to this: Teaching something in a class or class like setting would be okay if it isn't the end all to getting a badge. At some point, the scouts should show some sort of practical outside aplication of it's use. Kinda like driver's ed. Classroom to learn how to do it. Outside to practice ACTUALLY doing it.

I have no issue with having a Federal ID card. Had one for years as a military brat... I mean dependant. Couldn't even buy a chilli dog while on base without it. Right now, I already have a Federal ID card. Doesn't have my picture on it though. Called a Social Security card. Of course, it doesn't really track me so much as track where I earn money at. I have a state ID/driver's license which is soooo open at the federal level that it might as well have a naked picture of me on it. Having worked on garage doors on Nuclear power plants, Air Force bases, Marine Corps bases, Army bases and an Army Military Ocean Ammuniytions terminal as well as state ports and Federal Court Houses, I have had background checks that stopped just shy or "turn your head and cough". But if all other forms of Id are to be replaced by and trumped by the fedearl ID card...Then I am against it. Anybody ever have the most simple of mistaked make on their SSN/ tax Id or anything else? Takes an absurdly long time to get it fixed. If somebody was to screw up even a small detail, your info could be totally wrong or you could even drop off the grid.

Not a member of the UP, but I do wonder... Can you even fit more than nine knots on a shirt without them overlaping or covering the world crest?

"These are issues addressed in the Ten Commandments, by countless philosophers, in Victorian England, and in nearly any other culture in time or place we look" So let's be clear here first: I have my faith. I have my beliefs. I stick to them . But having those beliefs and completely believeing in them does not make them hard fact. Ten Commandments? How factual are they to Taoists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, and any other people who do not suscribe to Christianity. Afterall, BSA and scouting as a whole are not composed only of the Christain Faith. But go a bit deeper: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Ooops! We just judged something or someone as immoral and unnatural based on our own personal beliefs not any proven facts.... even though we are not experts on that person,or the "condition:" they have.

I'm thinking that I should go proactive on this one: Next leaders meeting, I am going to bring up the idea that: In the event that cub scouts are witnessed to be using imaginary guns during skits - during pack events, the highest ranking adult leader present must immediately use the nearest imaginary phone to call the DE or SE and report the imaginary incident.They must also document this on Imaginary form # 90128534-I

I was just on facebook and I posted that I was going to Pow-Wow tommorrow to learn to act even MORE like a 9 year old. Had a few friends comment that I shouldn't have too hard a time of it! I then mentioned the irony of it: We as adults constantly tell our kids they should act their age..when what we are really saying is" You should act my age!". Yet, I am going to a class/training to act their age. And you know..that's just funny to me. As young men, and as adults, we are constantly told, encouraged and prodded toi stop laughing, stop joking around and stop acting up. And you know, for the most part, it is good advice. The problem is that there isn't a solid one shot correct "grow up" to follow. I mean, nothing wrong with learning that life is not all fun and games, but instead of teaching youth to stop laughing and joking, we should teach them instead - that there is a time and place for everything. It's okay to laugfh, joke, cut up, and be silly as long as we do it at the right times. Basically, my experience is this: I am jokey guy. I like to tell jok4es and laugh. But I usually feel uncomfortable acting up, being silly, singing and dancing. I felt weird at the roundup when the DE starting singing and flitting around. Kinda scared the "grown up, mature, responcible , adult father I had become. At the very first pack meeting I went to, samething. I stood and uncomfortably watched a church full of kids not only jump up and down and holler...but they did it under the leadership of 3 adults. What the heck was wrong with everybody? Soon enough, I went from an active parent, to an ADL, to Dl, to Cub Master. And along the way, I have learned to be silly, cut up, laugh, sing and dance ( if you call it that) , and just generally have a good time again. And I can say I am glad for that. Over time, we tend to lose insight and knowledge of what kids think and what makes them tick. We only see the world through our "grown up" eyes. Thanks to scouting, not only do I have my "grown up" eyes, but I can also see the world through a kid's eyes. So the flip side? While we are teaching the boys how to grow up, learn responcibility and become good citizens.... we are also teaching ours selves to let go of that when the time is right.

Well Pack, that just proves that Elvis doesn't work at Area 51 !

Camilam, Okay, let's put it in the simplest terms here, because a rose by any other name is still just a rose. Call it anything you want, but your entire arguement is doubletalk. You stated out bt telling Scoutlass that the proof of what was considered moral was that all CO's went along with BSA. Then a few posts later, you actually said what I said ( the whole rose thing) wheh you strated that the CO's have no choice but to follow BSA's set policy. So since CO's have no choice but to follow BSA's policy...that means they agree? As far as morals go, like I said about a flat world, or slavery, or women having no rights...just because a majority or larger than the next group believes it, does not make it correct. Thus my flat earth comparison. At one time, a HUGE amount of people thought it was flat, Sailors feared sailing off the earth. Columbus was laughed at for thinking it. I am not saying that you should abandon your beliefs. I am not saying they are to be changed. I am saying that they are your beliefs. Just because alot of people agree with you does not make it correct. Lest we know from now on that Elvis is alive and is a CIA test pilot who works at Area 51 flying around in those crashed UFOs from Roswell.

Well, I can't say exactly what your definition or National's definition of an "Active Scout Parent" is, but I can tell you what we mean when we say "active scout parent" when it comes from the mouths of one of our pack leadership. Active Scout Parent( as defined by pack 235 - Hampstead, NC): A parent who actively perticipates and keeps an active interest in their sons scouting advancement and learning.They keep up with dates and activities, know when and where meetings, outings and ceremonies are taking place as well as what time. I can also tell you what is not an active scout parent by our packs collective definitions: Parents who pull up,park their car and sit in te car while their son goes inside. They stay there the ENTIRE time , yet complain about how meetings are run ( even though they cannot physically se anything). THese parents are also the ones who do actually sit in the very back during pack meetings, yet cannot tell you one single thing said by anybody less that 45 seconds after it was said...including their own child. When asked, they have absolutely no idea what their kid is doing, what the kid is working on, what den # their son is in and ( this is sadly true) sometimes do not even know the pack #, the name of the CO or the den leader's name. But...this parent gets mad when their son does not get any awards or special recognition directed specifically to their son..even though they have no idea what their son is doing or when. And as much as I hate it, that is all real life experiences. Most of it from the same parent of one scout. That parent will say they are 95% sure that their son is "X" rank. So, if by any chance National was aiming at those parents...I say: "HELL YEAH! It's about time!"

"The CO is follow the dictates of National. What are National's reasons. I've posted that" - Yep...just what I said: National's reasons, not the CO's. "And if they didn't think that they were morally wrong, why don't they allow for homosexuals to serve as volunteers then? The answer to that is pretty clear, because the BSA doesn't think that it is "morally straight" to do so. The cases that I listed are clear examples of this being upheld." What we have here is BSA telling CO that "This is what you are going to do, to be able to be chartered." That means BSA has determined what is morally righta s far as the rules go. That does not say or indicate that all people agree with them,only that they have to follow BSA's rule in order to charter a Unit. The Co does not have a choice as top wether to allow a homosexual to serve. BSA took that decision away from the CO. IF a CO actually fely having a Gay person be a volunteer, they still couldn't do that per BSA's rule, not their own feelings of morals. "By the way, who says the opinions of individuals who support homosexual behavior is the correct view? There is a lot more evidence to support the contrary." I never said, indicated or implied either side had the correct view. I only sid that your logic in the - "And if they didn't think that they were morally wrong, why don't they allow for homosexuals to serve as volunteers then? - argument didn't stand up. But as far as correct view...It wasn't that long ago that the evidence supported that it was morally okay to think of women as property , that black people were inferior and deaf people were just stupid. At one time, the "correct" view was that the world was flat, that slavery was perfectly moral and that women really didn't need to have an opinion, vote or do anything else besides run around barefoot and pregnant while fixing supper for the man. But evidence suppoprts that the "correct" view is much different now! So define correct for me. Is it defined as: WHat the majority thinks at any particular time? If that's the case, then who knows what will be "correct" in ten years. My only feeling is this: A gay person's sexual preference should not have any more influence or impact on scouting that my own. And do you know how much that is? ZERO! I do not bring my sex life into scouting. Scouting has nothing to do with sex as far as I am concerned.

What I am saying is this: He cannot be registered as a Cub Scout and Boy Scout at the same time. As far as the terms are: Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade AND is at least 10 years old - Key Point being he has finished 5th grade or is age 11 - At this age, he can join Boy Scouts regardless of what did or didn't happen in Cub Scouts. or has earned the Arrow of Light Award AND is at least 10 years old - Meaing - If he is still 10, but has earned AOL which signifies that he has proven he Knowledgable enough to join Boy Scouts , but has not reached age 18.- He is now TOO OLD to be a Boy Scout. So he has a choice: Join Boy Scouts when he is eligible to, or wait til he earns his AOL, then join Boy scouts.

Yeah, the anger has been there. Been there for a while. It probably has always been there to a monor extent, but I think the War in Irag turned up the heat. We were chasing Sadam in the name of stopping something Bin Laden did. People were angry about so many Americans losing their lives in Iraq under the justification of WMD's that were never found and who's existance were constantly being questioned within government circles. We were spending a fortune on a war that was not even related to the event that happened to us. What really got alot of people's goat was this: Bush pretty much said to his constituents: " If you question what I do in any way, then you are not patriotic! If you do not agree with me, then you support terrorism." No, the tea party may not have been formed yet, but the anger was there.

Oh,I completely agree. AOL is very big deal. What I meant is why be both a cub and a boy scout. Not that you can, but why would you want to be. If he's still working for that AOL, hold off on the Boy Scouts. Most scouts cross over after getting AOL anyways.

No. Once he joins as a Boy Scout, he is no longer be a Cub Scout. But why would he want to be? He does not have to have AOL to become a Boy scout.. Think of it this way" When you are old enough, you can get a learner's permit to drive. After sufficient supervised practice, you can prove you are ready to get your (under 18) provisional(limited) driver's license. One you have your provisional driver's license, the permit is null and void. Then as you turn 18, you get a regular drivers license. Now the provisional license is void Cub Scouts is the learners permit. Webelos is kinda the provisional driver's license of Boy Scouts. It's not Boy Scouting, but you work on Boy Scouting stuff with adequate supervision and you get to attend a few Boy Scout activities. Going to Boy Scouts is like getting your driver's license. Why would you want to still use and be limited to your provisional license?

Making your own rope is one of the requirements for the Bear "Tying It All Up" Achievement. I'mpretty sure that you all know this- but you know how some folks read stuff and get a meaning that is 180 degrees opposite of what is actually said - so I'm gonna say it for them. Making your own rope is one of the requirements for the Bear "Tying It All Up" ACHIEVEMENT itself, but IS NOT required to earn the Bear Rank. You have a choice to earn 12 out of 24 achievemnts. Making rope is a sub part of completeing that particular achievement.

"And if they didn't think that they were morally wrong, why don't they allow for homosexuals to serve as volunteers then? The answer to that is pretty clear, because the BSA doesn't think that it is "morally straight" to do so. The cases that I listed are clear examples of this being upheld." WHAT? That makes no sense at all! Basically you are saying that the reason the CO doesn't allow gay volunteers is because National DOES NOT LET THEM! So what does that prove about various religions views on what is morally acceptable? NOTHING! It only proves, as ScoutLass siad: "The moral argument doesn't fly, as NOT ALL ( emphasis mine) organizations represented within the BSA feel that homosexuality is morally wrong in any way, shape or form. Not everybody thinks being gay is morally wrong. Just because SOMEBODY else has a rule on it...does not change individual opinions.

" We should instead keep the badges of rank we earned as youth on our pockets and wear our old MB sashes." I have seen many adult leaders in both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts mention that they were not in scouts themselves as youth. I am in that group myself. When I was of the scouting age, wether or not there was a local unit is beyond me, but I can tell you that neither I or my friends knew of it. No posters,no signs, no public activities (parades, food drives, popcorn,etc..) I never saw a single flyer or ad for cub scouts. Never had a DE or CM show up at my school and talk about how great it was. Funny thing is, I lived about 30 miles from Wilmington, NC Home of the Caper Fear Council. I know it's been around for a long, long time. But that 30 miles was also through two different couinties. Now, I live about 27 miles from Wilmington and 1 county closer. Matter of fact, I am in the North East Cape Fear Distric of the Cape Fear Council. Anyways, I am the Cub Master of My pack, Before that, I was an ADL for Bears, before that Committee member. As a Cub Master, I am trying my damdest to step things up, make them more lively and more fun. I have been told that I am already making a difference ( thought I don't see it just yet). So, I plan on EARNING that Cub Master knot. Not just to have the knot as bling or toot my horn. But because by EARNING that knot, I can know that I did not just take the position in title only. I wasn;t just filling a spot or taking that position for bragging rights on an inflated ego. So it's not so much about the knot, but what I did to EARN trhat knot. And if I earn that knot, I'll proudly wear it But you will never see any of my youth earned badges since I wasn't a scout in my youth. Not that "that" seems to matter to any of the active Cubs in our pack right now.