Scoutfish

Are you on a freindly basis with a sheriff? Maybe have them come to a meeting, talk, show off the car, let the scouts push a button or two on the siren. Maybe have a drug dog do a demo? Tough call if they have been to jail twice already! Maybe Wildlife Resources officer or Marine Fisheries Oficer.

Two more things: I did not buy my son a knife from the scout shop. Personally, i didn't want to pay extra just for the BSA logo. I went to a mlitary surplus stote and the guy behind the counter( who used to be an Eagle) let my son hold 4 or 5 different pocket knifes that we were gonna choose from. My son picked one that the handle was a little bit wider. It was more comfortable to him. It had a 21/2to 3 " lock blade on it. The counter guy brought up a great point too: The kids are just learning. Sometimes, they pull backwards on the knife while it still has pressure on the material being carved. The blade could close and cut the scout! But with a lock-blade, that won't happen. Once they are pretty comfortable with and used to using a knife, you can decide if a non lock blade or multi tool knife is the way to go.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/award/whittling_chip-434.as Also, even though it is NOT required, we made a simple little true false test to help the boys show what they learned: True or False 1. You should close the blade with the palm of your hand 2. A knife is just a toy. 3. It's okay to keep your knife wet. 4. A dull knife is more likely to slip and cut you. 5. You should carry your knife open in your pocket in case you need to use it. 6. Carving your initials into a tree is okay. We also had a fill in the blank ( also not required) with answer choices: I understand the reason for ______________rules. I will treat my pocketknife with the ____________due a useful too. I will always _________ my pocketknife and put it away when not in use. I will not use my pocketknife when it might _______ someone near me. I ________ never to throw my pocketknife for any reason. I will use my pocketknife in a safe manaor at ______ times. Close * Respect * Injure * Promise * All * Safety Now, I cannot remember if it was in the book, or if I read it somewhere else, but teach them this: When handing the knife to somebody ( even if blade closed) wait until they take the knife AND say "Thank you" before letting go. If you are recieving the knife hold it, but do not take it away until the person handing it to you replies by saying "You are welcome" and lets go. Saying thanks you is your way of saying that you are taking control over the safe holding of the knife. Saying your welcome is your way of saying that you are giving up control of the knife and letting the other person have it. This is the best way to keep a knife from being dropped or yanked out of somebody's hand. For practice, I went to a dollar store and bought 3-packs of Ivory and Lever 2000 for ...a dollar! I opened the packages up and let the soap dry out for a few days. Fresh, it is a bit too soft. Ivory works great, but I hate that "fluffy" smell. Lever 200 doesn't smell fluffy and there are also less perfumes in case some of your kids are a bit sensitive or allergic to stuff like that.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

LOL! Wonder why I said : "I'd like to think it's because..." Well, I have learned that some things just make no sense unless you are on some National committee or board. So the centennial, which should be based on a 100 year mark, is actually a 5 year span? And the next one will be in about 95 years or so? No wonder so many people ask questions and there are almost never any absolute clear answers. I completely understand why personal interpretation ends up being a rule.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

When I aid they mant nothing to me, I meant only as in I didn't earn them. They are not sentimental to me. I would feel wrong to display them at my house as I have no personal connection, did not earn them myself or have a connection to them But SSS, you have a great idea. That would make a great guest appearance at a pack meeting. Maybe get the guy to explain what each one means, what he did to earn them, and how he worked for them. Give the cubs a glimps into the future. Cool! I'm gonna see about doing that!

Improper photos. It's not that hard to figure out. Sure we are adults here. Most of us have a well developed sense of tact and what is appropriate for various websites including Face Book, Myspace, and Scouter.com , and our own troop/ pack websites. But then you have the boys who aretrying to fit in and be one of the boys..by which,I mean adults. They are at an awkward stage where they may not get that the pollack joke would offend a Polish person or possibly Jewish person. They might not get that some cartoon pictures are a bit too risque' or inapproprate for the site or youinger scouts. Ever seen a scout wear a shirt that had a woman in a thong and her bikini top was "too thin" for the temperature and that that picture also had a witty saying such as( for example) "Big Johnson Totem Poles- Our totems stay up longer and are thicker" Or something stupid like that. Yes, it happens. Some boys se a narrow view of things and do not always see the bigger wider scope of what can poytentially happen. My pacj has a rule that our cub scouts cannot waer shirts that advertise tobacco or alcohol products on them. You wouldn't think we'd have to worry about that huh? WEll, we didn't just make that rule up just in case. We had a shirt that had to be turned inside out because of the picture on it. The kid didn't even realize ...he liked the shirt because the product was an endorser of his favorite NASCAR driver. He didn't even really ever pay attention to the woman on his shirt. Granted, 99 percent of the time, I don't think you would have to worry, but that 1 percent time can create a big mess.

Boy, talk about hitting te nail on the head. We have realized for some time that the public outside of scouting- wether Girl Scouts, Cub/Boy scouts, crews , etc... just don't see it much more than paying too much. And the reason is..they do not have a personal connection. If they do not have kids,grandkids, their relatives have kids , or possibly had been scouts themselves in scouting...then it's a matter of paying $10 for a small box of popcorn or going to Wal-Mart and buying a 5 gallon can for $3. Yeah, some peole do like to support a good cause, but what is the public's idea of a good cause? Not everybody thinks like me or you. That's one of the biggest reasons we do the BBQ chicken dinners. Half of the people "might" do it in support, but the other half are only in it because they get a meal for their $$$, not because it helps anybody out. Then of those who do it only for their own gain, well...that's because the price is good for what they get: 1/4 chicken, green beans, boiled potatos, a roll/cornbread/bread, a glass of tea and a dessert. for $6.00. That's a comparable price to pretty much every restaurant around us including the fast food joints...but without the wait that the restaurants or even the fast food places have.

I know a disability is all in the eye of the behoilder and also in how people view it. Me, I had cancer surgery less that a year ago and do not quite have full use of my dominant arm. As far as work goes..I have compensated where I could, and changed my way of doing things where I couldn't. To me, a disability is a slight disadvantage that we can't control. As leaders, friends , and just people, we need to look at everybody ..and we will see that everybody has a disability in some shape or form wether it's narrowminded vies, predjudice, ignorance, physical, .etc... My son is allergic to nuts and fur. Not really a big deal, except when everybody wanst PB&J sandwhiches. Doesn't matter to me, but sometimes my son feels like an oddball. I have a Bear Scout nephew who can't eat in front of other people. He will literally throw up. Strange...but it is what it is. My wife has a a small touch of OCD ( don't we all though... in reality?) She can't camp , because ( I swear it's true) no matter where she is, the one bug in the woods will somehow climb in our tent, climb to the top and fall on her face while sleeping. So, the biggest problem I see is that while trying to include the disabled scout, many good intentioned leaders and scouts accidentally draw bigger attention to the scouts disability. Some may just be jerks, but most are actually good intentioned people who may not evenbe awarde that they drew that attention. Wh7y? Because they see things from a different perspective. And that's where you just become a great and valuable asset to the program, to the scouts and to me. Tell us what you feel, what you think, and how you see things from your vantage point and through your eyes! I am limited( disadvantaged) to only seeing things through my eyes.

You could always make it a new rule: All adult camp guests must take YPT. Then it wouldn't be an issue any more. Plus it may save many questions asked of you abouth wether the parent can do this or that...

Do what it takes to be a quality unit. Earn that award. Then see which version of the award they hand you. The biggesr issue is that you are a quality unit, not wether it's Centennial or not!

Great question! You'd think that the Centennial Award would only be available in the years 2010, 2120, 2210, 2310, etc...or every 100 years as that is a centennial year for BSA. After that, you'd think it would just be a "Quality Unit Award" with the current year of 2011 right up until 2109, at which point, it would become a Centennial award again for 2110. In my Cub Scout Leaders Handbook, the index lists "Quality Unit" under the "awards" heading and gives the pages info can be found on. But when you go to those pages, there is NOTHING about "Quality Unit Awards" ,only "Centennial Quality Unit Awards". Then, it CLEARLY shows a patch that has the 1910 - 2010 logo beside the wording "Centenial Quality Unit 2007" But then, would that patch have been made in 2007( or actually 2006) since it was not yet 2010? Is this right since 2007 was not a centennial date? Hmmmm? Could this be another screw up or lack of attention to detail much like the literature that showed a Tiger Cub ( in orange hat and necker) with the Bobcat, Tiger, Wolf and Bear rank patches on his shirt? In my opinion, and it is only just that - an opinion - Somebody copied an existing paragraph and existing picture and modified only the wording to match this year as it was indeed a centennial year. I'm thinking that come next year, you will not earn a "Centennial Quality Unit Award", but will just earn a "Quality Unit Award" . I'm thinking this whole mess was either a simple oversight where sombody clicked on an edit function on their computer and missed the small detail, or somebody who works in a print shop - who really has no connection to BSA - made the edit, and therefore didn't understand the signifigance of the error. Edited to fix the small details! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Let me start with some background: I have a 9 year old Webelos scout. He joined as a Wolf. That's where it all started for me. Never was a scout myself. Working, volunteering, getting involved alot has me currently as the Cub Master of my son's pack. So while signing up a new cub and dad at a roundup meeting , the dad says: "My neighbor used to be a scout and asked me to give these to you." He then hands me 29 patches ...all from the late 60's , early 70's. I do not mean any disrespect but these patches have no special meaning to me as I was never a scout myself. I do not recognize any special worth or signifigance to them. Not saying I don't think they are worth anything......just saying I don't know what they would be. Hees is what they are so far: 2 leather "Historic Trails Awards" patches 1 leather "50 miler afloat award" patch 1 5" round "Order of the Arrow" patch 1 3" round YMCA "Indian Guides" patch 1 FT.TL. 4th annual Knox Trail Hike 1971 patch- Albany PFL'D Boston 1 Taconic Distric Fall Camporee 1968 1 1972 Scout-o-rama Dutchess County Council 1 "50 years of scouting" Dutches County Council 1969 Scout-o-rama 1 DCC BSA Taconic Distric 1970 Klondike Debrby 1 1971 Dutches Co Councuil spring camporall 1 Project Soar BSA 1971 1 "world Brotherhood" a cannon with British flag and maybe British nautical flag? 1 Dutchess County Boy Scouts Jr Leader training camp shield shaped patch 1 Knox Trail Kinderhook-Ghent 1970 1 Delaware River Canoe trip square with chopped corners 1 "plow the rugged Road" BSA patch with 2 revolutionry soldiers 1 Dutchess Co Council BSA Nooteeming Scout camp had a big red letter "D" and a indian head dress on it 1 1976 Bicentennial Encampment Dutchess co BSA 1 4" Arrowhead shaped "Pwamas Distric Suffolk Co Council Scouting in Axction" fall 1967 1 Camp Nooteeming BSA 1968 1 Camp Woodland Hiawatha Council has a chipmock? holding a fishing pole and fish 1 1/2 " red on olive Instructor patch with gold fleur de lis and two red stars 1 2" square gold fleur de lis on green background. ( rank?) patch 2 2" square Gold fleur de lis on gold star on OD green patch brown little swivel under star Is this star rank? 1 2" wide X 2 1/2 tall brown Eagle over gold fleur de lis on top of gold scroll/ribbon with gold swivel under it and the motto "Be prepared. 1 canoeing Merit badge Okay, Like I said, I do not mean any disrespect, but these patches are beyong my education and I also didn't earn them, so no special signifigance to me. I offered hem to my DE to display - possibly at council scout shop. He suggested that I save them and pass them out to the scouts in my pack as awards or prizes for such things as : "Most attentive scout during pack meeting:" or " most days of pack attendance" or stuff along those lines. Not a bad idea if I sy so myself, but these are not pieces of candy or bubblegum. The are patcheds that had to be earned. Your thoughts?

Something I have always wondered about: If a psychologist, psychoanalysist, or psychiatrist.....or whoever it would be..was to sit and talk to me for a few hours - what would they think? but more importantly, what would they base that opinion on? What science or education or training? My point here being: I am a unigue individual. There is nobody at all on earth who is like me. Every single day of my life has had an effect on who I am as wellas why. Every single interaction, event, action has had something to do with who I am...even the tiniest ones. So, what do you compare me to? How do they decide how far from normal I am based on what? If they did not know me before, what do they compare to. And then let's be honest: we are all human. try as we might, we all have our own personal interpretation of things. Kinda like 20 people could see the exact same event, and you get 20 different interpretations. So our own personalities and our own little inconsitancies alter or taint our judgemment. Kinda like a crzy person never doubts their own sanity, yet a sane person will wonder if they are going crazy sometimes. Nice catch 22 ! I'll be the first to say that I am already an oddity: My normal baseline body temp is 97.3 If my temp reads 98.6, then I actually have a fevor. I had cancer less that a year ago, A tumor the size of two chicken eggs on my neck. Yet, after surgery, every scan, every bit of pathology cannot find 1 shred of evidence I had it at all. It was in my lymph nodes too. The Dr said there are just no stats to go with my situation. I like to think I am a very reasonable person, thoug I admit - at least while typing - I cannot always express myself adequately. I try to see things from the other person's perspective and try to view it through their experience. But do all therapists, and all the psych's do that? What effect does their own raisning have on how they judge others? If they grew up in a no-nonsense home devoid of lafter and joking, do they see comdians as trying to escape reality and possibly think they are wqsting their lives? What if a psychologist grew up in an untracompetative home. Does he see those who do not feel the need to compete as weak or inferior? OKay, what about Freud? although I try not to use blanket statements, the man had a thing for his mom. He wanted her in carnal ways. but his denial came out in his judgement of others: he (blanket statement part ) said people hated their mothers. Or wanted to have relations with them. Was that his way of making himself feel normal? Nah, I'm not scared that I will need or have to be judged anytime soon. I just wonder how anybody can come up with any set of standards to judge others when it comes to the mind. I know I'm off my rocker a little bit, but that's what makes me fun!

Oh definantly on advertising in medical journals, and such. Let the Dr's know when a new product comes out or if a particular company might have made a better version of an existing product. I'm completely cool with that! But magazines like you buy at the news rack or Waldenbooks? Nah, no need for that. The kicker of it is this: The one page ad for the mdicine is only 1/4th of the cost. It's the 3 pages of disclaimers and side effects (that happen to be worse than the original issue) that cost the most part. 4 pages of ad space for a product that I have no ( or shouldn't) say or control over is being flaunted in my face by a company that is telling me I NEED it. Too bad truth in advertising laws do not require counter ads that tell people to go to the Dr and let the Dr be a Dr, instead of a pharmaceutical consierge service.

We normally have our meetings from 6pm to 7ish pm. Leaders would show up 5 or 10 minutes early. This year,our den meetings are still at 6, but we started holding our pack meetings at 6:30pm , and the leaders still show up at 6 . This gives us an extra half hour to get awards. pins, extra stuff ready without the scouts having to wait.

Okay,I'll bow to that one. Must have been planning on writing "many" or "more out there" (meaning also) , but not intending to write both. My stance on the original post? I agree with Beavah: Sure, there may be legit cases, but todays soceity somehow had become one that judges individuals with a stringent set of standards that we think are ideal. We somehow come up with a particular set of parameters that we think are the norm, and do not allow any variation. Some are for social reasons, some are just bad judgement. Look at Einstien. He didn't walk until he was 3 and didn't talk until he was 5...or pretty close to that.Labled a "retard" and by societies standards back then, should have been institutionalized. Turned out that he is either really, really smart, or just talks ina way as to make us think he is! Look at Picasso; In all honesty, I see his paintings as a bunch of scribble. Maybe he just needed contacts? Seroiusly though,the man was off his rocker, but was regarded as a genious. Why? Because of the standards that society came up with at the time But suppose the next einstien was born today. He'd be classified as "learning impared, special needs, and possibly sent to so many therapies to fix his "concieved" problems, that he might be a drooling idiot afterward. So we look at people, realize that no two people are alike, yet we expect everybody to fit into sa few molds that we think are ideal. When a child doesn't, we think something is wrong. I wonder how many times the next Einstien was looked at as flawwed and instead of being allowed to develop the way he/she was supoposed to, instead was given a shot of this, a pill of that to take, and considered cured because they fell into the same routine everybody else is in. Yeah, I know some kids really do need meds. Some need alot. some need less, Some may actually outgrow the needs, but mistakenly get viewed as needing a higher/ different dose. And honestly, some kids just need a momn or dad who won't put up with a bunch of crap from the kid. toomany parnets want to be "frien/parents" They want to be their cghild best friend and buddy, and are scared to tell their kid no. That kid soon has a meltdown or cannot handle not getting his/ her way.

You want to hear something funny? I have been in the garage door industry for over 15 years, I have NEVER had any other garage door installer or other company tell me that they lied to, swindled or mis stated a product to a customer or inspector. Yet, I have been to jobs where a company instaled a non wind rated door, stuck 1 single reinforcement bracket on the door and then put a 130 mph windload sticker on it. They told the homeowner, builder and inspector that the door was indeed rated for up to 130 mph winds. I was there just to service the door because it ran badly, I then easily pulled the manufacturee's specs to show it did not meet any wind load designs. Why the lie? Because the company could sell a cheap door at a high cost, while having minimal labor or material expense involved. Oh, sorry, that means more profits! I have seen other door companies sell homeowners an entirely new remote garage door opener because the battery on the remote control died. People on the beaches are told that garage doors are aluminum and rust proof in order to get the sale,. Guess what, most garage doors are steel. Painted in layers just like cars, but steel. The average garage door on a house will not be aluminum because it costs about 4 times as much. So the door company charges double for an regulatr door. But they didn't tell me about it. As a 14 year firefighter,I NEVER EVER had another fireman come up to me and say: " Dude! I love fires soooo much I sometimes set them myself, wait for them to grow and then call 911!: Yet, I have seen people get arrested for it. I have discovered the evidence that proved that one of my friends who was on my FD did it. Yet he never said a thing to me! Can you believe that? I have known people get arrested for drugs, embezellment, and assault, They never told me a thing about it. And you read about it too in the papers, see it on tv and maybe even hear the morning DJ on the radoi joke about it. Can you cite a specific source or give me proof? Not off the top of your head, but you know that it very well happens. Not all people do that,. Not even most, but it happens!

"The mother of a Tenderfoot, who just crossed over in March, comes to the Scoutmaster in August and states, "I"m the den leader for Johnny's brother's den and would like for him to be the den chief." Does the boy even know that his mom asked? Does he want to, or is the possibility there that maybe he didn't even want the POR? Maybe the boy talked to the SM and told him so. Now, it's the mom who is being decietful by having her own personal agenda ...right Mythbuster? Well,of course we don't know that from the info. But we also know that the Sm did not lie in any shape way or from to the mom. He did not say the boy HAD to be anything...he just said..."lets just wait.." Sound like the ScoutMaster was using grace, tact and defusing a situation before it even happened!

While we are at it, I NEVER said a majority, or most doctors. I said SOME. Matter of fact, I actually said: "too many" and even one is too many in my opinion. And it is my opinion that the moment a Dr chabges his diagnosis just to make a patient happy, he has strayed from the whole point of medicine. Drug companies do not need to sell to people. They do not need to advertise to those who are not trained to make the deciseon of what drug, if any, to use. Instead, they could save a freaking ton of money by not advertising something to people who have no control or deciseon over it, and in effect, save us from paying $30.00 a pill instead of $.30 a pill. And for the record, the socialist contries cannot make those companies sell or set up shop. Those companies are making some profit lest they would have closed down already. They are just not making 1000% profit per pill.

Last month, the Office of the Inspector General, Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) issued a "Special Fraud Alert" targeting aggressive drug industry marketing involving cash and other payments to doctors and pharmacists to promote specific products. The Inspector General warned that such schemes may be in violation of Medicare and Medicaid anti-kickback laws (American Medical News, 29 August 1994). DHHS is concerned that aggressive promotional incentives could harm patients if they influence doctors to make medically inappropriate prescribing choices.----- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0815/is_n185_v19/ai_15852403/ "Federal investigators looking into kickbacks in the orthopedic device industry have apparently set their sites on another target doctors who received these illegal incentives. The physician investigation is just the latest chapter in the governments ongoing probe of the financial arrangements often made between medical device makers and the doctors who use their products. So far, the kickback investigation has uncovered excessive consulting agreements, lavish trips and other perks the makers of hip and knee implants handed out as rewards to surgeons who used their products."-------- http://www.newsinferno.com/archives/2784 Husband-and-wife physicians pleaded guilty in Los Angeles federal court Monday to accepting illegal kickbacks from a medical laboratory that analyzed patient specimens for them---------- http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/26/local/me-medfraud26 It takes two to kickback. So federal officials aiming to stop the practice--and tired of knocking at Big Pharma's door--are approaching the problem from the opposite end. Yep, they're now targeting doctors. The New York Times reports that prosecutors have historically avoided putting physicians in the hot seat, because they figured juries would sympathize with them (and we all know that public opinion of pharma leaves a bit to be desired). Now, though, the feds are plotting civil and criminal charges against surgeons who allegedly demanded kickbacks from device makers. "The strategy of looking at the companies alone was not completely successful in terms of our objective to deter health care fraud," U.S. Attorney Michael Sullivan told the paper. Read more: Feds cracking down on doctor kickbacks - FiercePharma http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/feds-cracking-down-doctor-kickbacks/2009-03-05#ixzz10ab36URm'>http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/feds-cracking-down-doctor-kickbacks/2009-03-05#ixzz10ab36URm Subscribe: http://www.fiercepharma.com/signup?sourceform=Viral-Tynt-FiercePharma-FiercePharma --------- http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/feds-cracking-down-doctor-kickbacks/2009-03-05 A common problem in illegal drug and device marketing cases is doctors willingness to delude themselves into thinking that cash, lucrative trips and other kickbacks do not affect them, said Mr. Morris, the chief counsel. Somehow physicians think theyre different from the rest of us, Mr. Morris said. But money works on them just like everybody else."---------- http://lcmedia.typepad.com/pharmola/2009/03/feds-to-doctors-stop-illegal-kickbacks-or-face-.html "Dr. Mudd's prescribing habits came to the attention of GrowTall's manufacturer, DrugCo, Inc, who approached Dr. Mudd and asked him to enter into an exclusive marketing agreement, under which he would help them in their post-market research by prescribing only GrowTall and reporting patient outcomes to DrugCo."---------------- http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2003/07/hlaw1-0307.html I'm only guessing, but I suppose none of these guys called and told you they were taking kickbacks? So I supose you really didn't know!

Welcome! All ideas and opinions...especially all experiences are always relevant. I hate that yours was the way it was, but with your personal experience and especially your unique insight into this... hopefully we can create a better program as we go. Luckily, times are changing for the better. Used to be a time when epilepsy was considered having a fit that the individual could control. Thank goodness we now know better. All opinions and thoughts are welcome, but I feel yours will carry more weight in many ways!

LOL! Okay, I just got what you meant by racing. DUUUUUUUUHHHHHH! For some stupid reason, I was thinking two or three boys holding a foot race. Don't know where my brain was. We do PWD race. We go to one of the 3 local elementry schools and use the gymnasium or cafeteria. Last year, due to the size of our pack, we had Tigers race on Friday night and the rest race on Saturday morning with the top 3 Tigers also showing up Saturday morning. We weren't sur how it would work at first, but it turned out better than we planned. 43 Tigers raced Friday night, went home happy and had Saturday to do whatever. Meanwhile, the rrest of trhe boys did not have all the extra waitimng time before they raced. We did have two best of show and two best overall trophies. One set for each event.

dancing.....well, not "real' dancing. Banana peel dance, Lion Hunt dance, bazooka bubblegum dance. Dancing you'd expect from 7 - 10 year old boys. If you call that dancing. Of course, that's a good as I can dance too!

"I don't think most physicians are engaged in bribery or fraud" Neither do I. But the whole concept of Dr's prescribing because they were trying to make people happy wsn't mine. I do belive that ..some Dr's spend time checking this med against that med against the level of the dose trying to hone the right amount. No doubt that every single person is an individual who needs something different than the next. There is no "one dose/one drug" miracle cure. I just think some Dr's are too quick to prescribe the drugs to begin with. Yes, some need it. Some.

Well, being that I am new as Cub Master, I recently discovered the pack flag in out storage bulding. Did not know it was there. Didn't even know we had one. Not sure about why we never displayed it before to be honest with you. We did have some "drama queens" within the leadership the last 4 years or so, but they moved on. Things are really picking up between that and full commitee. As far as races, we don't have races or games, during pack meetings. We do songs, dances, skits, cheers, etc. We do pack announcements and do den as well as individual scout recognition, but no races. The cool thing about the church is that it is a very large one. There are 7 seperate class/meeting rooms - two of which have folding partiotion wals that can be usd to make 9 room. There is a good size kitchen/dining area too. Plus we have "the scout building" out back which is a 20 X 25(our half, Girl Scouts use other half) building with bathroom and has a 16 X 7 garage door to "open" it up some to nature. We also have a couiple fire pits and 2 scout flag poles . No, they are just regular poles, but next to the scout building for both practice and ceremony for the Pack and Troop. Now, I'm not saying that races are a bad thing, or anything like that....just that we never had them. Plenty of room though for other games and activities though.