Scoutfish

I'll tell you why: Behind that grumpy ass old man face you are putting up is a kid at heart with a big heart who cares about something that nobody else in your unit does: The boys. The SE and DE want numbers which represent money. The parents want a break from the brats ( who incidentally -are brats because of the parenting), the committee is just a group who pats itself on the back for it's ideas and orders, not any actual useful hands. They are too self important in knowing that they run a great program. But somewhere, they all forgot what it was that put each one where they are.....the boys. But you my friend, work tireless hours through this cramp,that ache and those blisters in order that the boys themselves get a a little bit of time not only being being boys, but being kids. As far as youth protection violations....nah, you did not violate anything, the people who put you in that position did. What you did was prevent abandonment. If anybody from council asks you about a YP violation, tell them next time that you will abandon the kids and leave them completely alone ....all in the name of scouting!

"If I had gotten the answer when I first posted instead of asking for more details and dragging it out,....." Her'sa thought for you to consider: If you gave the details to start with, you would have gotten a GREAT answer to start with and it wouldn't have drug out? So you realize that a chain of command answer was the thing you needed. Had you given more details, you would have gotten that answer much, much sooner. Kinda like going to a garage and telling the mechanic your car isn't workimng right. If he asks you what's wrong, and all you say is that it's broke....he has no ida whatsoever where to even begin. But if you tell him it cranks up, runds good until you put it into drive...he will start checking vacuum/ vacuum line problems, or idle sensors. Tell him to start wit that it cranks and runs fine, but cuts off when you put it into gear and he will come up with theories right then. Just mulling around and repeating that the car is just broke doesn't tell him anything. Now, you said the popcorn story was exactly what you were talking about. Really? Because in the popcorn story, simply saying a treasurer stole mosney soundslike a bad treasurer. But explaining that a mom had didn't like the rules and her sons quit over it actually turns things around 180 degrees about what is really going on. No, you don't have to explain every single minute of every meeting since the involved person joined scout 5 years ago, Doesn't mstter what color car they drive, their shoe size or style of underwear that they wear. But what was stolen, where and how you know about it mean everything. Did you personally witness somebody stealing from a cash box they were not authorized to even touch? Or did a "since high school" friend tell you that "Mr.A" stole something at their campout , and two scouts quit. Meaning you are getting a second or third hand story of which you cannot honestly verify as being true or accurate. No, we don't need actual names or addresse, but you gotta give some details.

CRAP! I acidentally hit "esc" after typing a whole responce! Anyways, what it came down to was this: If everybody is doing nothing but expect you to do it all....then you owe them nothing! But I can say "been there- done that" as a firefighter/ems/water rescue person for 15 years. And I am doing it right now as a CM ..although nowhere as severe or as in depth as you are. Basically, I am shaking my head , wondering why you are doing it, but realizing I have done it and still are doing it myself. Sometimes, my wife gets mad at me because she can't understand how I can complain about so many self centered parents and single scout focused leaders...yet I spend $$ left and right on books, training, events, equipment and I go to at least 6 meetings a month on a regular month, plus extra meetings for events. So, nothing beneficial to add to the post, but I totally understand where you are coming from and why you still do it.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

GREAT QUESTION! Is it worth it? Yeah, it is. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't having fun. I'd also be lying if I said I'd still have volunteered to do it if it was just work. I have fun camping and I have fun getting the boys all riled up. I cannot beat the feeling I get when I see a scout being proud when he finally learns or overcomes the challenges of learning a new skill. And yeah, we get plenty of complaining mom and dads. Not being sexist, but usually, moms are the biggest complainers about how we didn't speciffically stand their kid up on a pedistal to shine and bask in all the world's glory. So maybe it's a little bit worse in Cub Scouting where parents are more involved. Maybe iyt's worse in Boy Scouts where the costs of trips ate exceptionally higher. But I see being a scouter kinda like I see camping: There are gonna be bugs that irriatate me. There is no A/C in the summer. There is no well stocked fridge or freezer and the bedding is nowhere as nice as what I have at home. Plus I have to plan ahead and start getting ready a week ahead of time..just to camp a few days , then another weeks to dry out, air out, repack and restore everything to be ready next time. Compared to staying at home, where I just walk in te door and I have A/C, stove, pillowtop mattressm hot, hot shower, and a awesome supply of food and a fridge...well, camping sure is a big pain in the ass isn'tit? But I just love to cammp! I can't wait to go again a day after I get home from camping. Camping is alot of work, and the chance of it all going to pieces is always looming over my shoulder...but the enjoyment outweighs the risk. Just like being an adult leader in scouting. Great question!

"All the more reason for the adults to step back. If they fail, the will learn more from the failure than what the adults can teach them. " Not all failure is a matter of life or death. Sometimes failure means an activity does not happen due to poor planning or a lack of attention to detail. Sometimes failure means an event gets postponed, ends early or gets cancelled completely Sometimes failure means you get wet when you had plans on staying dry. Sometimes failure is the difference between eating a cold pop tart and a nice hot stew. Sometimes, failure means that you lose your leadership and somebody else takes it. Sometimes failure means that you have to stop, undo what you did and start completely over. And all of those are situations where failure could also be called: learning, education, lesson learned, experience, etc... But if failre results in death, I might go so far as to (mostly, not completely) blame the adult leadership.... as before failure got to the point of no return, somebody should have stepped in - in their "mentoring adult advisory position" - and said : "Hey, due to the imminent risk of serious injury, bodily harm ,and possibly death, this is when we have to take over." Afterall, Isn't that one of the bigger points of adult leadership? You can teach youth how to not die in the jungle by teaching them about the jungle, making them familiar with the jungle ,and letting them experience the jungle...... or you can teach then to avoid the jungle completely. And by jungle,I mean a general term for any part of life outside of four squared and plumb sheetrock walls.

The original post also says a leader within the district. So I gather that the leader is in a completely seperate unit from the original poster. So...it's not internal to the OIP's unit. But what else? Did a parent - who might also be a friend of the OP tell the OP that someting was amiss? Did/does the OP have any first hand or direct contact knowledge of what is going on? Was it something within scouting or outside of scouting. And that does make a BIG difference. I mistakenly accuse of of stealing money because ( due to stated policy) you do not refund camp money, but transfer it instead...then I just look stupid. I accuse you of stealing because somebody says that their best friend's 3rd cousin's step dad twice removes is embezzling from a company that he only 49% owns...well, you might want to just avoid the whole thing instead of causing yourself embarassment and a possible slander lawsuit. So you stand up and say:" Hey, this guy/gal stole something!" And everybody give you a hard time. There is alot more too this than we are able to give any worthwhile advice at all for. Details, details, details. Who stole what ( no names - slander thing okay) , where did they steal if from, and how do you know any of this: If it is inside scouting. If it's outside scouting, let it go or talk to the police.

OH SNAP! THis site is full of "Ego Scouters" ! Ha ha ha!

Yeas, details DO matter. Details are the key to many, many things. The OP says: "In my district we have a leader who has stolen and because of her action 3 boys have dropped out of scouting." Guess what, we had the exact same thing happen in our pack! Details: 1) The two boys and they were brothers. 2) The accusor was the boys mom. 3) The "stolen" money was the money the boys earned in their scout accounts for selling popcorn. 4) It was considered "stolen" by the mom and boys because they thought the pack was going to write them a check, which they planned on cashing and spending at TOYS-R-US and Wal-Mart. 5) Before selling popcorn, we explained just like we do every year, that the 20% scouts earn is put into a scount account and can be used for scout related stuff like camping fees, books, dues, council camp, hats, camping equipment bought at scout shop, etc...... 6) Mom and scouts thought that they should be the exception to a LONG TIME RULE that every other single scout was held to. But let me take the details away and restate the issue we had: Mom is mad that treasurer stole money. 2 scouts also mad and quit. Everybody took treasuere's side and was "against" mom for standing up and saying treasurer stole money. WOW! Without details: 1) The stories are eeirily similar. 2) You would be 99% likely to give the wrong advice about how mom should talk to COR and IH about the theif amongst us! Simply put...details are the difference between night and day!

"I'm curious, is there a perception in the Scouting world that if you weren't a Scout you can't somehow lead and make decisions?" I hope not. I was never a Cub Scout nor a Boy Scout myself, and here I am a CubMaster. Nah, I was wondering.....amd that's all...just wondering that if a unit is adult led - when those scouts themselves become leaders - are they also gonna be an adult lead unit. Except maybe unlike their parents (who did happen to be former scouts), they never got to lead as youth.

Does boy lead create future adult lead units? Do adult led units die after those adults move on , since the boys have no clue. Just a casual wondering here. From the previous thread, it was summed up very nicely ( in my opinion) by Jblake47 about why adults ego's prevent them from letting go of the reigns of control. And Sailingpj brings up what seems to be a time honored tradition of the younger crowd being disatisfied and well...entirely tired of the program. Now, lets toss in another common topic: "What is wrong with scouting?" ...and it just seems so clear why things are not like they used to be. So, in my own tidy weiw: Kids joined scouting a long time ago, They learned all kinds of cool stuff. They were given the oppertunity to lead, as well as the oppertunity to screw up, and in the process - learn even bigger and more important lessons in how to do things and leadership. They became better leaders day by day, Working through challenges and overcoming obstacles...they evolved into leaders. Soon, they were the leadership amongst the boys and doing a pretty good job. Matter of fact, they were doing a great job of boys taking control and leading and running things. Scouting was good. But soon, these boys were no longer boys and were instead adults. They were no longer Patrol Leaders , SRL's or quartermasters. They were ASM's, SM's and Committee. They were no longer the boys who were leading. But they did not want to give up control. They and their ego's just knew without a doubt that they were doing it better and that the other boys would not...could not do it as good. The boys couldn't handle the challenges, the obstacles and might be forever tarnished if they failed. So the adults slowly picked away at the boys responcibilities, creativity, and opertunities to run things and make decisions. Now, maybe nobody noticed a connection, and maybe there really isn't one, but when, where and why did scouting become less appealing? When and where exactly did the program start to fail? When did it go from being "THE" youth organization to just "a" youth organization that needs much improvement? Another bunch of questions: Those who are members of and running the units that happen to be adult led....Was it always adult led or was it youth led. Were you those youth who led, and didn't let go, or were their other adults who led you. If a scout is adult led and adults make all the decisions.....and one day these same youth become adults in a unit...will that unit have adults who do not understand how to lead? Will those adults lead anyways? Is that the problem now? Adult led youth of yesteryear never had experience of leadership, so they don't realize what they are doing now? And if you don't let the youth lead and make decisions....where and when do you expect them to suddenly know what to do when they become adults? Now, I do not even begin to pretend I have any answers to any of the above, but the thread this was spun from just makes me wonder.

"Sorry. I remain unimpressed." Not trying to harp on you but... What about the scouts? Are they impressed with competition? Or are they unimpressed with the lack of?

WEll, that sucks for them, but you can't punish the rest of the pack/parents from having the ability and talent to create a nice car. Basically, you cannot punish those who are good at something in order to please those who are not! That's just life. See, I absolutely hate to see a car come to the PWD and it's obvious that the scout has not only not touched the car, but possibly never even seen it or knew what it was until race day. I hate when the only thing a scout had to do with the car is bring it home in the original bax before Bob Villa dad calls Roush Racing Inc. to figure out how to build the car. But I have also seen scouts who , with guidance and supervision from mom or dad, will draw out a car and cut it themselves with coping saws and scroll saws. Then hand sand, seal and paint their cars. Some kids are really naturally talented wood workers ( that's where talented parents come from) who bring top notch cars to the PWD. So what to do? Well, we are in the middle. We have competitions and we compete in every sense of the word. We start handing out cars at our Christmas party. WE hand out. post and discuss the rules. We hold 2 workshops at our CO ,and hold a test run at our CO with the track. At all 3 pre PWD events, we dimension boxes. Noy sure what you call them, but if the car fits in the box by width and length, and the bottom doesn't scrape the bottom of the box...it's legal size. WE also provide access to the official race scale, so that racers know exactly how their car weights based on "THE" scale being usedat the race. Now, on the day of the PWD, and right before the race, we make a few announcements. The race is about building cars, seeing how creative you can be, and developing skills and talent. We are there for fun first, comraderie second, and if you happen to win..well,,that's just a bonus. We tell all the parents that this is about the scouts, not the adults. If they have a problem with the event, rules , or winners...then maybe they should just sit it out . Rules are rules, posted in advance and EVERYBODY is helt to the rules EQUALLY! And lastly, the boys love competition. The only people who do not like competition are those who are not competative enough to hang in there. Again, we cannot dull it down and punish those who excell at something just to prevent those who are not good from having hurt feelings.

If you can distinguish the difference between one Wookie famly and another....you are a Star Wars geek!

Just warite what you know. Specifically...BSA writes a book that is dry, dull and also a salesjob. Wreite a "real world" book, Tell them that some parents couldn't do less if they were in a coma. BSA would have you believe that parents are just anxiously waiting and waiting fopr somebody to ask them to volunteer and will say yes in a heartbeat! But in the real world, we know that alot of leaders wear two or more hats because nobody else will lift a finger to help_ no matter how great a recruiter you are. Just add some real life scouting to it, tell the new leaders that it's okay to screw up and the whole program will not crash when they do screw up. Matter of fact, some of the best learning a leader has is from screwing up.

"Webelos just crossing over will be challenged by an overnight camping trip 50 feet from the parking lot." WOW! I cannot believe I just heard( read) that! If you honestly think that, you are so unfairly judgeing and doing a great disservice to soooo many new scouts. Now, I am sure there are some Webelos who get goosebumps just from stepping 15 feet into the wods. Some might even freal out if a butterfly lands on them. No doubt some kids are just too soft. But to make it a blanket statement for an entire group of kids is just unfailrly detrimental to them and the programm in general. Patronizing. That's the word I might be looking for. We have some first year Webelos who are more comfortable in te woods than in an enginnered structure. We have second year Webelos who could teach adults a thing or two about camping. Hell, some of them could probably teach the US Marines about camping. The biggest downside is that these boys are so attuned to nature and living there, that they rather wear off the dirt than to shower.

If you can more asily understand when Yoda is talking than Jim Kirk talking, you are a Star Wars geek, Or just normal! If "Wookipedia" has a spot on your toolbar, you are a Star Wars geek.

Just saying...look at al the incredibly stupid things you did while younger ..both before and after age 18. Yet, as far as we can tell, you turned out pretty good didn't you? Responcible adults, involved in scout ing and mentoring youth, trying to steer them straight and into a good, respectable wholesome life. Not bad for somebody who was different a long time ago huh?

Man, this is a tough one and there is no easy answer. You don't want to look the other way or push aside the seriousnes of what has happened here, but at the same time, you goot a step back and look at yourself first. Before I judge somebody else, I first ask myself: What about me? For example: If I had to judge this scout, I would remember a time when I was 18 years younger than I am now and just started dating my future wife. Where I live, there wasn't a whole lot to do growing up except set a pile of logs on fire, turn up the Hank Jr, drink a beer and holler. And that's exactly what we did. Sometimes, we would go four wheeling in a big ole mud hole too. Sometimes we fought. Sometimes we'd fight with our lady friends, Sometimes we'd make up for fighting with those lady friends. Sometimes, we;'d drive to the store and buy another case or two...or at least the ones who were legal age. So there it is..in black and white: Scoutfish drank alcohol while underage, then drove a motor vehicl in the mud ( and between trees) at night, engages in pre marrital sexual activity and bought beer at the store knowing some of his underage friends just might get a drink or two of that alcohol. Amazingly, I never got caught. Now, I am not proud of it, do not look fondly on it, and sure wish I done things differently back then. BUT...that doesn't change the fact that I did it then. even though I wouldn't think of doing it it now for a split second. Matter of fact, I can count the number of times in the last ten years that I have drank alcohol on one hand......and still have fingers left over. My point is: while not ignoring or blowing off what the scout has done...let's don't forget that - AT THAT AGE ( or close abouts)- We screwed up too. Some of us may have done it occasionally, other more than had their fair share of screwing up. Before you judge that scout based on scout oath, scout spirit, and scout law, look at yourself in the mirror, look at what you have done, should have done, and could have done in the last few years, then decide if he has earned Eagle - but judge him based on the same standards you use to judge yourself and hwat you have done. Again, not saying anybody should dismiss his actions away to just being young or dumb, nor should it be waived based on "boys will be boys", Just saying that he is human like the rest of us, and is not perfect..just like the rest of us. We all screw up and do something pretty stupid sometimes. The trick is wether we learn from it and make ourselves better afterward.

TRIPLE BACKFLIP , DOUBLE AXEL AMEN to what SctDad said! I'd tell "screaming dad" that :" These are the rules to be in the event that is put on for the scouts. You want to be in the event...then you follow the rules! PERIOD!' Our pack uses the rule used by the district. What's the point otherwise? You must use the tires that came in the box. You must use the nails in the box If you lose a nail or trire, you can only use new ones bought from the scout shop. You must use the original axle slots If they are out of square, you can straighten them. 7" max length 2 3/4 max width 5oz max weight.

Two things: But first - Each state has it's own laws and such,so there are/may be some differences depending where you are. 1) Good Samaritan is not limited to trained, professional,or paid people. I seperated paid from professional because professional is an attitude and not actually limited to getting paid or not. Good samaritan is just exactly trhat: Samaritans. People who...under good intentuionds and good faith try to help and assist. Suppose you wreck your car, flip over and end up trapped in the car and it catches fire. Gas is leaking and it could possibly explode. So a GOOD SAMARITAN ( emphasis, not yelling) decides to do the good deed and pull you out of the car. As it turns out, you had a minor neck injury and the good samaritan makes it worse when he pulls you out. Matter of fact, because the good samaritan grabbed your arns and your head bobbed , you are now a paraplegic. You sue thatgood samaritan. And yeah, juries can be swayed, but a judge with any sense would tell that jury as wellas the plaintiff and lawyer that the other option to being a paraplegic was being a crispy chunk of coal in the burnt out shell of a car! The good samaritan( while not perfect) acted in a way that resuylted in you being in the lesser of two bad positions. Mainly, being alive. 2) Where it comes into play with EMS, fire, and PD is the same thing, but with a bit more restriction. Nobody can foresee every single circumstance. Hindsight is 20/20, but is still hindsight. As a professional ( trained, certified, and active) firefighter/EMS/water rescue person, as long as I acted within my training to the best of my ability, I was covered by good samaritan. At least in the state of NC. BUT...had I acted in a manner or attempted to do something above my level of training when not imminently adverting death...I could be liable. Meaning if somebody got stung by a bee and said that their throat felt funny...I could not perform a trachiotimy ( you'd think I'd know the right way to spell it) and be covered ..especially if the victem was still breathing AND I had no training in it. Likewise, as a NC certified Emergency Medical Technician, I was not trained or certified to give IV'sa , shots, drugs, etc. So If I gave you a shot and something went wrong...I'd be liable. But again, even in those circumstances, I could stil be protected. Suppose you are a diabetic, end up in circumstances where you cannot physically give yourself an insulin shot. Any help is too far out to assist. You ask me to give you that shout, If I do, I am doing it in good faith and protected ..ASSUMING that I do it in good faith , AND that bigger ,more serious issued will develop if I don't. But back to the case at hand. Stuff happens. Usually, we can reasonably plan ahead and work out "what if" scenerios. But every now and trhen, something happens that we cannot foresee or plan fore. In that case, acting in what you honestly feel is the right and prudent thing to do( based on the info you have at the time) will end up with you being covered by Good Samaritan laws.

It is a rule, but like mentioned above...use some common sense and trhen apply real world circumstance. Suppose you have 8 adults..AND they are all YPT traind ANd registered leaders. Suppose somethin g happens like a bad batch of food or a rabid racoon attacks. Maybe a rabid wolf comes to camp and attacks. Adults try to protect the kids, all 8 are injured. Then what? What if a husband is in the woods and his wife is home. He says something. If she can't hear him, is he still wrong? Okay, look. In fire figheter school we were always taught that you always have back up no matter what. So two guys go into a burning house to try and rescue the occupants. If you send them in, you better have another team ready to go, in case the first team has trouble. BUT....as soon as you send that second team in, you better have a 3rd team. Then you better have a 4th. Then a 5th and so on. So how many people have a job as a fireman? At this point, the only way to absolutely follow the rules is to let the people inside die. "Sorry about that, but we didn't want to get sued." It's like Twocubdad said: "Emergencies trump all else!" PRERIOD! And as a firefighter/EMS/ Water Rescue..I WILL tell you...you CANNOT always wait on an ambulance. If the closest EMS is 30 miles away, if traffic is bad, if you are deep in the woods (especially a hike in) If it's summer and the EMS district is especially busy and has to call another unit fromanother district....Well, going out can cut the time that the victem gets help in half! Sometims more. May be that you meet up with the EMS unit on the hiway, half way, or closer. Which mean you cut the time in at least half for anti venom or whatnot. Somebody wants to sue you in these particular circumstances....you will be protected under good samaritan laws. Besides, as pointed out, YPT and 2D are two seperate although connected issues.

I understand where you are coming from. I get a little bit stressed myself sometimes worrying about our program. My ACM and several leaders tell me I'm doing great and not to be so hard onmyself. Of course, they have been doing it longer than me too. But I'll say this: I like your thinking here. You are going outside the box of "normal and usual" thinking here. You are being creative. That's cool! Too many people just read the BSA books over and over and over, hoping the answer will pop up. WE, the books will tell you that all the parents are just anxiously waiting for you to ask them to lead. But in the real world, we know that parents hide, cringe, avoid us and do the least amout possible aside from bringing their kids to meetings. So, I think your meeting idea is great!

Guess we steered it away from resources. I go to books-a-million. They have several books on everything from camp cooking, to recipies , tto using wood, wood coals, charcoal, gas. They cover foil coking, pots and pans, dutch oven, sticks and open grill. Some are the "unoffical- offical retired ex-scout who had 4 kids who wher scouts and therefore have done it all!" cookbooks. I have a DO book that has cooking times broken down to different times and qty per DO size, temps based on # of coals, and the equivalent oven temps, and wether DO is cast Iron or aluminum. But I'll be honest....The best resource is YOU! Personally, I get more out of watching somebody do it while camping and being able to taste something. Know what I mean? You ever read a recipe that sounds good and it tastes like garbage when you make it? Or one that sounds bad, but if you try it ( because somebody else cooked it) you love it!

Well, I understand where anybody "might" make the connection that tou "associated" it with the program. Guess we all do it all the time: read something and presume that it's gonne be introduced into or a part of the progream. Kinda like when somebody asks a question about "A", and we not only answer the question about "A", but throw in our $.02 about "B", "C", "D", "E", "F", "G", and "H". Nobody asked us..... but we presume. Anyways, back to my original comment: I'd bring it up during a fitness or health Activity badge or MB. Bring it up for awareness and if questions are asked, go a little more in depth. Awareness is key to everything.

Is this for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts or parenst to see? It's definantly good for the adults to see, but the ones it is intended for don't get the hint. Can't say how it works for Boy Scouts. For Cub Scouts...it's dry, dull, boring and you will end up with a bunch of drooling , blank faced , lethargic scouts. Well...the last 15 minutes is exciting enough for them...but that's about it. We started shoing "The Little Rascals" movie instead. The whole movie is based on a downhill soap box derby and it just the right age mentality for Cub Scouts.