Scoutfish

Then he will keep doing it and doing it. So at what point or what activity do you finally tell him to stand down and how will he react after having gotten his way every other time he has tried. As Deputy Barney Fife used to say: "Andy, we need to nip it in the bud!"

I take two sides to this issue( which has many, many sides to it). In the first place, If somebody says something that could be taken as an offense by me..I do not sweat it. I am only offended if I choose to be. I can just as easily laugh that person off. Letting them offend me give them power over me and I do not allow that! Also, I go by what they meant, not what I might take the word to me. And in an example of this thread.....If a person of British persuasion was to say how much the hate fags and how bad they stink..I would not take it as a racial slur, but I'd take oit in the way they mean it to mean. There is no sense in convincing another country or culture that their word is bad just because our contry thinks so. It's the intent of the delivered message that matters, not the way I use it, or think it could be used. Now, having said that, I do not condone people who use such word of hatred in a callous and spiteful way and then try to pretend they are justified in it's original meaning. For example: If my son and his friends kept calling each other gay at every chance, and were constantly luaghing about it...but tried to say : "We are only calling each other happy." in an attempt to get away with it...I'd be getting out the soap! You know the worst part? That we spend so much time arguing why it should be accepted in it's spitefull and hatefull hijacked way and be tabboo instead of taking back the language as it was originally intended. At this rate, we might not want to say we are "scouts" lest we be associated as on equal grounds as Nazis or White Supreamacists.

Again, I'm not saying that you beat up a parent or cuss them out, but you can say, and say it authoritively, that this is an activity for the boys. Tell them that if the parents are going to flip the pancakes instead of letting the boys learn...you could have just assigned the parents to cook for the boys and been done with it.

But starting a conflict with parents who are probably convinced they are doing the right thing, and perhaps are having a good experience doing it just doesn't seem worthwhile. You don't have to walk up and punch them in the face, just tell them that the best way to learn is experience. And the only way to get experience is to do it, not have mom and dad do it. Besides, the conflict is the parent taking the oppertunity away from the kid. The second conflict is the parent taking it upon themselves to change what was going on with the scouts in the first place. I try to make a point of my expectations, but perhaps people just don't get the word, think their way is the right way or whatever. Yeah, we tell parents at pack meetings, at den meetings, send out e-mails , etc.. But somebody always just shows up and says: "Nobody ever said anything to me about...". During the event or activity itselfis when we especialy stand up and tellparents what we said before. We NEVE stand down , because as soonas we do, we send the message to the parents that they can ignore us anytime they want. And we are not going to let that happen. We will not stand by and watch one parents ruin something for everybody else out of fear of upsetting that one parent! It's a disappointment to me, and perhaps some Cub Scouts lose out on the experience at that moment. On the bright side, I'm avoiding the drama of a newspaper story "Cubmaster Wrestles Parent Over Spatula At Cub Scout Campout!" Yeah,it is a dissapointment, but let it continue and keep letting these hings slide and you garrantee that ever cub wil lose out every time. As for the newspapers..let that parent go and blab all they want.If that parent is the kind to do that, they have done it before...repeatedly. And everybody also recognizes that kinfd of parent too. Besides, all you have to say is that an untrained, non adult leader tried to hijack the scout activity without any authorization or clearance and the whole storuy will backfire on them! But if you stop doing things for the boys then what point is there?

That is when you step and and tell...NOT ASK... the parents to step back. This is your deal. You are running the event. If parents have a problem with that, they are welcome to hold their son back somewhere else. In the end, it is all for the boys. Letting mom and dad do it or letting things control what you do makes the whole point moot. Toss out offending p[arenst who do not follow the rule or the program. Yeah, they will holer and fuss, but everybody else will be happy about it in the long run.

I like hand written comments of birthday cards, congrat cards, anniversary, etc.. I like ( most of the time)to see and read hand written comments on my son's homework assignments and 9 weeks reporets cards and evaluations. I hate to have to read inter office memos and pack wide reports and such. Why? Not alwats sure what somebody wrote. One ladt has the gold standard of neat and pretty writting, on the opposite side of the spectrum, it looks like my dog swallowd a pencil and threw up. I'm somewhere in the middle and slightly closer to the dog who threw up. I'd especially hate for Council to misunderstand something as you all probably knopw how hard and long it takes to get that straightened out!

Thank you everyone for the replies. It helps alot!

Admin....Not sure if this is the right forum, so if it needs to be moved... Tonight, while attending our packs den meetings, our COR walked up and handed me an envelope. It was addressed "Cub Scout Master Pack 235" . No, it wasn't a personal invite, but I get the idea behind it and plann to attebd and show respect to the Scout who earned it. So here's the thing: I am totally new to this. Never been to an Eagle Ceremony before. This is my first year as CubMaster, so I am not familiar with the tradition or routine of attending as an adult leader of a neighboring unit within the district. Do I bring a card of congratulations or something similar? Do I bring a gift? Thought about maybe giving a $30.00 gift card to the scout shop, but seeing that he's an Eagle..he may be getting out of it and the card would be useles. Maybe a gift card to a nice restaurant? What's the protocal or tradition here?

I wish you luck! Speaking of your leaders..it remind me of something Jeff Foxworthy once said: "When women ask us what we think about something....they do not want to hear what we think, they want to hear what they think in our voice!" Same goes for existing leadership. They do want help...doing it the way they always have. We have had a few people who want alot of help, but would let the help - help out because they might do it "wrong". Know what I mean? They are scared you might do something different from "the way it's always been done".

Congrats! He is in an awesome position too: He is still connected to the youth point of veiw. Know what I mean, we can try all we want, but we will never have that same point of view or age mindset that the boys have. We are oklder, have matured and grown up. Not that it's bad to do so, but over time,we lose a bit of the connection to being that age.

And you are right about camping. Just need somebody trained in BALOO. Can be a DL, ACM, CC, treasurer, whoever in the adult leadership.

No, I said: " or trying to imply I know what the others in your pack think...but that is a big enough thing to make people have an issue with you being the CubMaster. At least , it is within our pack" I'm not saying that you feel or think this way. But the current leadership of the pack may think that. That MAY be the issue you have. And it is POSSIBLe that some of the moms may feel like they are getting scorned for camping if the CM wasn't cool with her husband camping with girls. Again, not saying anything for sure as I do not know these people...but it is possible that others feel this way. And you said you get defensive sometimes right> Don't we all? Same thing with the current leadership. The goals you stated are great and actually, within normal range. BUT....depending on the current leadership, they may be hearing you say: "You guys are not doing a good job and I am going to fix your sorry program." No, you did not say that, but that may be what they heard. Kinda like when my wife asks me about a shirt. It could be the ugliest shirt in the world. All I have to say is ( not kidding either) : "I don't like that shirt." And she takes it as that I think she is ugly, fat, hideous and uis devastated that i told her. Doesn't matter if it's because it'sa color she KNOWS that I hate. I talk about the shirt, she hear me talk about her! Same thing with the current leadership. Again, I am only saying may, not is.

SctDad To your original question: I'd say it all depends on you. Wether you take it or not shoudl be be all about your reasons and for nobody elses. I was going to take it last year( Dec) but decided that I really hadn't spent enough time in leadership for it to help with what I knew. I guess I felt I needed to know more for WB to benefit what I knew. So I am taking it next year. And doing it for my own reasons...not because Council wants me ( and everybody else) too, not because some think it would be cool to have another WB'er at our pack, and I am taking it in spite of a few WB'ers in our district who don't think it means anything. I have met great WB'ers that were great people regardless of taking the class or not. So is it worth it to you to take it? I don't know..only you can/could answer that!

Something about that statement bothers me. Granted, I would not feel comfortable at a girl scout camp, but that's because I am not on the same mindset as girls. I have no idea what they like to do or their interests. But as a dad camping with my daughter at that camp...well, i'd be there for my daughter. Thing is, Cub Scouts is not just a man thing or male thing. It's a family event. From Experience, I have seen dad;'s who should have been VERY thankful the moms were there to set up the tents, help with activities, etc... Then you have boys who's dad decided that being a da just wan't their cup of tee. Then you have boys who's dads are deployed or off due to work. Then there are boys whos dads died. I commend the moms who do not stay hom3 because they think it's a "man's job" to do the scout camping thing. Now, I am not meaning for this to sound condescending or trying to imply I know what the others in your pack think...but that is a big enough thing to make people have an issue with you being the CubMaster. At least , it is within our pack. Between YPT measures , camping rules ,and following policy that scouts cannot sleep in tents with any adults other than their own parents...there should be absolutely no issue whatsoever with yourself or any other female at a campout with a bunch of boys. Again, I do not mean this in a bad, rude, obnoxious or hatefull way...but if you don't think that you as a female need to be around cub scouts who are camping...you probably really shouldn't be a CM. I mean, the entire program is about and for boys. Gender roles and stereotypes need to be tossed out.

Naw...I know that BSA and some of the programs are not perfect. Trust me, I know! My point isn't so much about WB itself as the fact that forum members complain that WB..or rather, the new VERSION of WB is not in keeping what BSA and Scouting is supposed to be about. And then at the same time, call names, insult and try the "oneupmanship" or scouting skill based on somebodyelse simply having a different view of it. I mean really, if people do not like the way WB21C ended being...I'm cool with that. But to ridicule, personally insult and call others credibility as a scouter over wether somebody enjoyed or got something out of it or not......well, I can't find any pragraph or section in any of my 7 scout books or online stating that's within the scout spirit or BSA's intended plan. Again, it comes down to people basically saying: "If you do not agree with my opinion - then you are stupid and not worthy of being a scout!" And having taken WB or not...I KNOW that is not anything the original WB would support, imply or teach.

Congrats ( maybe ) and welcome to the club. I know "XM" is supposed to be Cm , but the "X" key is beside the "C" key. I'd be lying if I told you I didn't hit the wrong keys at least 8 times per post! I became CM last June . My original intentions were to be a Webelos DL, but apparently, my enthusiasm, and general ability to get along with everybody and planning made others think differently. Now, you didn't ask, but I want to give you the most basic and over-simplified definition of what a CM and CC does. Duties of a CubMaster: Lead pack meetings and get the boys riled up and make sure they have fun. Duties of a CC: All thr boring admin and buisness stuff needed to run a pack. Like I said...oversimplified, and very basic. As a CM, you also over see the program that the DL's deliver to the boys, and after that, you help the CC and committee find, and recruit new leadership as needed. The CC does all the buisness stuff and handles the various committee members who handle awards, recharter, fundraising, paperwork, etc... I mean this as a c ompliment, but you sound more like a CC than a CM. Trust me, it's probably more important to have a skiled CC than a CM. Almost anybody could be a CM if they learn to not take themselves so seriously and will joke and be a kid themselves in front of and around the boys. Anybody CANNOT be a CC. That takes quite a bit of skils, asertiveness, b uisness sense and the ability to delegate responcibilities and take charge and keep people on track when needed. OH, while very favorable, the CM dos not have to go camping...although, they should want to whenever the oppertunity arrises.

While I doubt there is a written offical policy about it, I'd bet it comes from that alot of the patches on the vests are not offical uniform patches. Where that would be relavent is that you are "encouraged" to wear your uniform to such events. And since the majority of the patches on the vest and the vest itself are not part of the "OFFICAL" uniform....then it's probably not correct to wear the vest at such events as you described. Now..having said all that...I have no problem with the boys wearing them. In MY OWN eyes, I see it no different than wearing awards, knots or Boy Scouts wearing their sashes. I mean, again- my own personal opinion, if some adult thinks the whole ceremony or B&G is ruined.........then THAT adult has bigger isues and is missing the whole point of the program, which focuses on the boys and having fun. If they want to wear them....so what?

Yeah,the form I downloaded has the option of : "I wish to work only with_______" OR "I wish to work with all units" I am attaching a note to say I will work with just my CO's unit at first to get some experience and time under my belt, but the next year, I'll work with all units in my district

Baden, it's not about WB, it's about your treatment of other people who like WB. It reminds me of people who have the thought process of : "If you don't agree with me, you are just stupid!". It never occurs to that person that they themselves may be wrong or overly too opinionated. Let me put it this way: If 99% of every person who talks about WB21C seems to have had a GREAT time and cannot stop talking about the benefits and how it's helped...and so far, only 3 or 4 people seem to think it's worthless- then it seems that the isue is with the few, and not the course. In an enttirely different matter, no matter what the course is - good or bad - then as long as it benefits the people taking it..then what else matters. So far, the only things you say are it's not what it used to be. Well and? Nothing is what it used to be ...like these forums for example. Did you used to go online as a youth and chat about BSA? And like I mentioned in another thread, If you prefer cheeseburgers over hotdogs..nobody would care, argue or start calling names or puffing out their chests. Talk about Wood Badge or Scoutcraftand you cannot accept that it may just work fine for others. Nope, you feel you must convert them into haters too. Why? Why not just sit back and let other people decide for themselves after taking it. Are you scared they might actually learn something, like the class, have a great time and ultimately ...benefit them, their unit and the program? Thing is, you do not have to like it. Do not have to stand behind it or such, but you also do not have to blast it, insult everybody who wants to take or has teken it or gotten benefit from it. That attituide alone in nothing like what WB would support otr teach. And you know..I am not a certified or trained meteorologist either..but I know when it's raining outside and I know when it's cold too!

Filledit out and listed: ART CARPENTRY FIRE SAFETY FIRST AID MOTOR BOATING PLUMBING WOOD WORKING I made a cover letter to go along . Pretty much lists what I wrot in my post with the experience I had in case somebody else see's an angle or connection I missed. Will turn it in tommorrow.

It's a funny thing ain't it? If you think cheeseburgers are nasty tasting, and prefer hot dogs for a lunch time meal...while I prefer cheeseburgers...it's just a matter of personal taste. We might brag on why our own choice is better, but there is no seriousness or arguement behind it. But let it be a matter of Scouting and people just cannot just be happy with their own personal opinion of any particular part of the program. Nope! They have to stand up, shout it and not just state their own feelings, but feel compelled...No , OBSESSED to convince and convert everybody into thinking exactly like they do. It's not good enough to say: "I don't like the way this particular program/ class/ subject/ ect.. turned out." Nah, instead people get mad, get accussatory and start insulting each other.Gotta see whi is more Scouty than the other and who is better at it. Then come out the chest puffing and bigger balls contests: "Oh yeah? Well , I led 25,000 scouts into the desert with one cup of spit and a single slice of bacon. We stayed in the desert for 3 weeks and everybody came out 7 pounds heavier and full of scouting knowledge!" The next guy/girl meets one jerk and takes it upon him/herself to declare that BSA is ultimately in trouble because only jerks teach "X" and even the Pope himself would turn into a jerk after taking that class. Why people cannot accept the fact we like and see things differently is beyond me. Your house is painted different color than mine or is brick? So what! You drive a car while I drive a full size truck? So what! You like country music, I like southern rock? So what! I watch history channnel and scy-fy ( stupid name- won't argue that!)and you watch ESPN and TCM? So what! You hate your RT's and I enjoy ours...GET OUT YOUR GUNS!...we are going to war? What the hell is up with that? And Just for the record..brats are way better than cheeseburgers or hotdogs! Edited because..well, you guys know I just can't spell half the time! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Nah, what I was saying 3aying is that I'd rather have Schiff than the so called "expert". Schiff is humble in calling himself "less-qualified scouters (like me ) " Actually, I'd say he is more than qualified because he makes the extra effort and commitment to do what needs to be done. The expert who stops because of a tiny obstacle doesn't sound like an expert to me. May not have come out right, but I was complimenting Schiff!

Correct me if I am wrong...but didn't BSA do this at jambo?

Incidentally, our council only offers WB every two years. Not because of finding people to sign up, but because the course instructors act as the ticket counselors after the class and realize that being a counselor and active intructor - while still doing all the other duties during the year - would be too much of a burdon on the counselors and take away from the experience of the students. Can't wait til next year when I take Wood Badge!

I put off taking WB until I had some more experience under my belt. Right now, I am glad I did as I have had time to see thimngs from a better perspective as a CubMaster. But what really gets me is the stupid, and I do mean just that...STUPID ...arguing over wether or not WB21C is worth a damn of even follows anything to do with boyscouts. Tell you waht I do see, and I think my "non WB'er" perspective let's me see without a biased veiw: I see a bunch of stuffy egotistical people arguing in a most and extremely UN SCOUTLIKE manner about wether a class actually represents what scouting is about. KUDU: You don'yt like WB21C. Yeah, we got that. You say it isn't what Scouting is about or what GBB or BP intended. As soon as anybody tries to make good out of what YOU personally judged as bad, you insult them, question their intent as well as their integrity. You blast them and decide they are less of scouters without knowing a thing about them. Do you really think dogging, insulting, and dissing the BSA and anybody who is willing to work with/ for them ...is a fine example of what either Bill or BP thought were great scouting values and ideal? Baden P: You lament about how anybody who is taking WB21C is shortchanging and that the effort is for nothing, You say the old timers know what it was really about and how leadership wil suffer for it. Leadership of what? Refusing to do anything different than what you know? You said numbers were dropping because of WB21C. Have you considered that number may be dropping bevcause all people see is a bunch of people saying how awfull and horrible a class is? Change happens every day, everywhere,. But NOBODY will sign up for saomething if the instructor make it clear from the beginning that the class they will be taught is done so with disdain and contemp. The course is not the problem...the "we know that the other is better" instructors are! And listening to all the sarguements in all the posts concerning WB and WB21C...I realoize that you guys are arguing toe-may-toes with tah-mah-toes. I have never taken the course, but taliing to real live people who have taken it... I realize that the newer course is not to teach you how to camp, or scout skills, but to teach you how to be able to lead others in obtaining and most effectively being able to run a unit that learns those skills. In other words, WB isn't going to teach you to put up a tent and form a patrol, but should teach you to find the most efective way to be able to take yourunit of scouts out into the woods where they CAN learn efecting skils dealling with camping, patrols, planning anf such. WB21C is like art class. Art class does not give you or teach you how to get tallent or be artistivc, It only guides you in better ways to aply your talent to whatever medium you are using! Then it gives you tips on how to get the most out of galleries and mingling with other artists in your community! And lastly, a class is only as god/bad as the participants and instructors. If you go to one MacDonalds and the service is bad...it does not mean that every MacDonalds is bad. It only means that you had a bad experience at THAT restaurant. And a good portion of our experiences is made up of our own attitude and preconceived ideas. You go in with the mindset that you are going to hate WB21C....then I imagine you won't be dissapointed. Go in with an open mind..you might just learn stuff and have a good time.