Scoutfish

Yeah...what they said! You don't show up for camping in march with swim trunks and a tank top on. You don't get ready for a June or July campout with a parka and ski pants on. Never ever wear flip flops. Doesn't matter if car camping or not. A stick can jab anybody between the toes in half a second! Wear good, sturdy, yet comfortable hiking shoes/boots. Might want to wear quick drying breathable ones in the summer,waterproof insulated boots in the winter. Plan for different weather extremes. Might be warm today, but could be wet, windy and cold tonight. If your son is like mine and prone to find a mudhole in the middle of the Sahara, you might plann on 3 sets of clothes for each day. It's all pretty much using commonsense. Don't bring a sun shelter to sleep in. Don't think a blanket that keeps you warm in a regular bed at home will come close to cutting it in a tent. And don't bring Sunday clothes, dress shoes or a bunch of electronic games, dodads, or stuff that you don't need.

Way, way back when...seems like we got 5 out of a can of the taller generic store brand. Was cheaper too.

"I credit the active interest I gave them right then and there." Great job SSScout! Same thing at our Cub Scout roundup.The DD gave a speach, each of us 4 CM's said a small bit about our pack and the other 3 sat down at a table waiting for parents to sign up. I walked around taking to potential Cub Scouts and answered mom and dad's questions. And I mean talking to the Cub Scouts, not talking over them. I ended up with 23 new scouts and the other 3 ended up with 1, 2 and 1. But back to the OP: I am thinking here is that the Webelos scouts and parents may not be so much be slackers . I'd almost bet they are not ignoring you so much as they were never given much instruction, incentive or maybe any idea about what they should do. Did the DL, CM, or ACM put any effort or emphasis on troop meetings other than what is needed for AOL/ rank? Did the Webelos parents ever have the leadership explain how things work? I mean, I can see one, maybe two boys and or their parents being slack...but all four of them? Maybe they had a pretty bad Cub experience and don't want to continue or think they just show up and are automatically in the troop? Maybe the pack leadership just didn't put any effort into advancing the boys to troops. Possibly it's one of thosr cases where: If you go to troop "X", we'll hold your hand all the way!" But all other trops are left out in the cold? Know what I mean? If you are not going to the troop that the DL's kid is moving up to ...then you are all alone, on your own and can hear crickets chirping?

"Personally I have yet to see anyone who has taken the "new" WB course impress me as having superior skills of any kind because they took the new course rather than the old course." Having never taked WB...but having postponed my plans to take it til next year...I cannot argue a whole bunch, but having talked to so many WoodBadgers ans reading the arguements here....I think that sometimes, being outside gives you a different perspective on things. What I mean is, if you are involved personally, you don't have a bias towards one side or another.You can take an objective veiw. I don't think anybody intended for the new WB21C to create "superior" scouters. I see it just as emb021 said: It was just a refining. It's just like cars. Every year, they fine tune this, tweak that. Every 5 or 10 years, they come out with some bigger changes. Remember catlytic converters? They were an improvement on emissions, but they also reduced the quality performance and power. Then came fuel injection and computers. More efficient, better fuel milage, but ask a hot rodder, and the power curve is way off. Then look at these 4 valve percylemndar motors and front wheel drive. Yeah, they have more power for the size they are, but compared to the same size car in 1978 with a V-8...Well...they just suck! Did anybody plan for cars to be less muscle machines that they used to be? Nah..probably not. They focused on making them more fuel efficent, cleaner, more environmentally friendly and safer. WB21C is the ame way. The down sides are probably not intentionsal or even really thought out. But there are improvemnts somewhere that trade off with what it used to be. The world is changing. Not a single scouter can claim that scouting could possibly be lie it was before. Your old leaders never e-mailed anything to council, never tected or cel phone the DE, SE, scout office or faxed anything to the registrar. They never online registred for Philmont,m a canoe trip or week of camping anywhere. No GPS's in the cars, buses, or vans. Nobody kept records on a computer or copied or printed forms , papers, applications , etc... And they sure didn't compare notes at scouter.com! Just saying, the new WB ain't about making people superior to the old WB class. It's just people trying to take an existing thing and improving it to fit the ever changing world.

Before we do anything PWD related, we bring it up at a pack meeting. WE explain everything in advance including the rules ( we follow district rules), the dates, and what is expected of the parents . Next we start selling or giving out cars at the Christmas party. Selling or giving depends on the vote by leadership before hand and on pack budget. Then we bring it up again and again at pack meetings. We have two workshops where the offical District rules are available to be viewed. I and another Adult leader will divulge any and every trick we know. Smothing out axles, raising one wheel just a hair, squaring and trueing up the axles, slick finish paint,weight placement/ weight balance,and graphite, graphite, graphite! We also have two test run sessions with our older track set up. It's a nice wood track, but not as nice as our aluminum one. Thing is though..if your car runs good on the wood track,it usually runs awesome on the aluminum one. We had to disqualify two cars this year. One had the axels 6" apart, the other had wheels that were about 3/16th wide. At registration/ weigh in, the first thing we do is weigh the car, then we put it in a test box. We do this before we collect the first dollar. We give them until the end of registration time to add/subtract weight and bring the car down to proper length. We do tell boys that they want to add weight if their cars are less that 4.5 oz. We tell them to aim for 4.9 They need to graphite before they check in as once we get it, it's quarantined. Only offical PWD staff are allowed to touch it after that. People sometimes try to bend or sneak around the rules. WE catch tghem, they are disqualified. Yeah it sucks for that scout, but sucks worse for all the other scouts who did follow the rules if we allow that car to race. On the rare occasion that mom or dad protests, we tell them that we explained multipkle times about the rules as well as having copies of the offical rules laying on tables for everybody to see and follow at all test runs and workshops.

No and Yes. No, not on paper or in any "offical" way. Yesin the real world. Our current ACM is basically the DL. He runs the den, he leads the boys and does an amazing job with the help of the "offical" Den Leader. Thing is, our ACM is only an ACm during pack meetings, camping events or pack activities. During den activities, he is "officaly" the ACM, but there are no "Offical" ACM duties taking place. Now, I have no doubt you know what an ACM's job is right? Of course you do. But I'll say it anyways for the benefit of anybody who doesn't know. WEll, actually, I'll give the layman version: The ACM's job is to assist the CM, be ready to fill in for the Cm if the CM can't bet at a pack function. And along with all the other yad, yada, yada...promote religious emblems stuff and coordinate/ assist with the den chiefs. So basically, during den meetings and den functions, you can still be a DL. During pack meetings and pack functions like campouts, you can be either the DL or the ACM. It is rare the two duties need or happen to overlap. To behonest, it all depends on you and your pack. It has worked for our pack for the last 5 years without any issues at all. Is it the ideal, sought after thing to do? Nah....but in the real world, due to what resources we actually have, we sometimes wear two or three hats and it happens without a hitch.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

LOL! I'd have said: "Nope, wasn't a scout but I still know how to read!"

"Am I wrong to feel so unenthused about this?" Absolutely not. You feel the way you feel because that's how you feel. What I find that I really like is this: "Since I'm not sold on the idea myself, in fairness, I thought I should invite someone who is to our den meeting to hype it up a bit, which they're going to do." I really really commend you for this line of thinking and your actions. Too many adult leaders will decide something is not worth it ( in their own opinion) and blow it off with total disregard of the fact that anybody/ everyboy else might love it. I think it's great you looked outside yourself and gave everybody the oppertunity to decide for themselves.

My district is a bit different in how it does things. The more I read, the more I realize how lucky we are. Our RT's are great! Sure, there is some boring info sometimes, but other than that, they are great, up to date and done in a timely manner. Meaning we discuss stuff before it happens instead of during or after it happens. We discusses medical forms, recharter, and Journey to Excellence back in December. One thing that may be different at our roundtables is this: We don't have a RT commissioner per se. Rather,our DE heads up the RT. But let me tell you, he's great! He leads the opening Pledge, trades invocation duty with different members, and will bring up anything pertinant to our operation. And by "our operation" I mean the units, not necessarily the council. He;'s been at it a long time though. When we discussed recharyter, he brought in the council registrar. When we talked about medical, he brought in the council staff member who handled that. When it was time for J2E , he brought in somebody who knew what was instore..not somebody who was "pretty sure" what was going to hapen. The first thing he does is discuss important issuse. then he will open it up for anybody to bring up or ask about anything that pertains to how we function as a whole. Once that is handled, we break away as necessary or needed. He usually goes with us to the Cub Scout breakaway which is coll because you figure most Boy Scout leaders have been there before and the Cub Scout leaders don't have as much tenure/ experience . We discus what is important to Cub Scouting and again, he opens it up to anything and everything related to our operations and functiong as needed. Yeah, he has a set of subjects and issues that he already planned to bring up, but also recognizes our need to learn other stuff too. So, to the OP: "What methods does your district use to communicate with unit leaders, and how effective are they? " Our DE will personally call us, will e-mail us individually or by mass e-mail, will post on the district website, will at RT"s as well as show up at our CO's on den night or pack night if requested.

Thinking my last comment might have come out sounding snappier than I meant it to. I'm just saying that I'm more for giving the boys a great time than I am for following tradition just for tradition's sake!

No, we didn't do something to make it easier. We had a combo event because the weather screwed up many weks of planning and we lost a few meetings and had to reschedual. The B&G happened on theplanned date. But, since we don't turn BSA"s birthday into a "get your rank by date" and since the weather canceled many meetings, there really wasn't alot of awards to hand out. So what does that leave for B&G? Food. So as parents, we could spend hours cooking a ton of fod that the scouts do not really like as much as hot dogs, chips, and cake. Now, your talking tradition, but what does it mean to the boys who don't care for the B&G other than cake? OIt means nothing. Now, we could set our PWD backa month or two, but then our second year Webelos would miss out on it. Now here's the bottom line: The boys loved it! The boys had a blast. Many of them commented that they liked the hotdogs and chips WAY BETTER than the usual food we have at B&G. So it comes down to this: We can do tradition for the sake of tradition...or we can do something the boys like better. Which in this case, that is what happened. If the boys had a beter time and enjoyed it better...then we'd be shortchanging them to ignore that fact!

It's the football team mentality! ASk people what teams their school has..and everybody knows about footbal. Some think of basketbal and baseball, but hardly any think of wrestling, soccer, golf, track and field. NObody even thinks about the girls sports. I too went to every meeting and volunteered to help before I was even a volunteer scouter. My son had had perfect attendance for the last 3 years. There is that old saying : "It's only 1 hour a week." Well, they forgot to add : "per scout" It's funny how so many parents think we just show up and every single plan, materials, supplies , and all the coordination just "happen" spontaneously? Funny how we can mention at ever den meeting, 4 or 5 times during pack meetings, send home flyers and post to web sites ( for months to come) info prudent to an event or function, and a bunch of parents will say: "Why didn't you tellus before the last minute?" I mean, we plan a whole year ahead of time on most things, and at the beginning of the season for the rest. WE tell everybody they are welcome to attend ( and watch) our planning meetings and observers are welcome at leaders meetings. They do not comprehend the hours behind the scenes or the meetings at the pack, district , or council level. No clue about all the trainings euither or time and $$$ spent. But seeing those kids beaming big smiles and high fiving each other after gettimng awards or beating a challenge surely does erase what the parents think. But yeah, they are thinking about next years football league before this years has even started!

You may never evr know. Religion is a funny thing ain't it? I have been to many diferent churches and seen the most variety of peoples beliefs. Some folks think women who wear pants will go to hell. Some older gentlemen think a church that allows a woman to preach is actually the devil's church in disguise. Some people think that if you are not in a 3 piece suit...then you are damned for disrespecting the Lord. Some think music from musical instruments is the devils work. I've seen people get highly upset from another person not bowing their head during prayer( never mind it meant they weren't bowing either!) People get bent out of shape over one mispoken or ommited word. Other are more relaxed in that they feel that as long as you are dressed, then it'sokay because ...well..If God created the entire univers in 7 days - then what can we possibly wear that will impress him? Other think as lont as you pay your tithes, you are instantly cleared of any wrongdoing and have aticket to heaven. Then you have those guys in the midwest who protest at military funerals and the ones who drink spiked soad and chase comets. Sometimes a family will agree with and follow along with 99% of the program, but that one tiny thing sets them off. WE used to go to a local Church of God for a while. Personal differences are why I do not go still, but it was a very cordial and respectful seperation. I have full respect to those who go there and still remain frinds with alot of them. Anyways, you ever go to a Church of God? They do the whole stand up and speak in tongues because you feel touched sorta tghing. Funny thing was...only the same 4 people felt touched each week and their "dialog" was exactly the same. If you recorded it, you'd understand what I'm saying. So one week, a new family joined up. They met alot of the congregation, felt the same way over soooo many things. But didn't know about the speaking thing. First time somebody stodd up during the sermon, that family exited. VERY FAST! It was almost funny. So, anyays, that family may have found one tiny thing, and that's all it took.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Gosh, I guess I was wrong about RT too. I had the same ideas you did. I thought RT was for the scouters and their units, not the RTC Apparently, RT stands for RIGID Table, not ROUND table.

WEll, a while back I asked what some of you thought about combining our B&G with our PWD. Some thought it was a great idea, some didn't. WEll, we did it anyways and heres what happened and what everybody invovled thought about it: WE started the day with our registration and weigh in. This began at 8:30. Usually, we have a "in line by" time as a cut off, but due to the weather playing havoc with us SEVERAL times in the last few months, we weren't so strict with the time table to accomidate more people. After check in/ weigh in, we took the scouts outside to take part in a service project for the school where we have our bigger events. The school allows us to use their cafeteria/ multipurpose room/gymnasium ( yes, that is a weird set up, but it works) to hold our PWD, B&G, and Christmas parties. WE built and put 6 benches in the ground with the scouts using post hole diggers and setting the posts in, leveling the benches and setting the right height, as well as packing and tamping the dirt in afterward. WE took pictures for the local paper and for The Home Depot who donated the materials . It also helped that we had e a beautiful sunny warm weather after so much rain and blah and snow. At this time some scouts were busy with pre scheduled playoffs for indoor soccer and basketball games. At 10:30 am, we strted racing. WE started with opening ceremonies: Pledge of allegience, playing the National Anthem ( on the race program) and then the "Gentelmen..start your engines!" call. WE raced all the cars aand the boys had a blast. But before we handed out trophies or announced the winners, we took 45 minutes to eat hotdogs and chips. We also served our B&G cake. WE gave the boys another 30 minutes to burn off unspent energy. and then prrsented awards for the races. Now, I know some of you look at B&G as a cut off point for advancement. We do not. WE don't do it because people tend to try and rush and cram stuff in by B&G and then afterward, the programs kinda go into limbo after that as many do not put much emphasis on electives or such. WEll, a birthday is a birthday, not a checkpoint. We do not move it klater either. That would be the same as celebrating your kids birtghday a month or two later just to make sure they pass their school grade first. So anyeays, in the end...everybody loved the events being combined. Parents did not have to spend a couple hours cooking food. We did not have to spend hours setting up a buffet or cleaning uyp all the mess afterward. WE didn;'t make a 3 hour event out of what usuallt can take place in 1 hour at a pack meeting. Overall, we had 5 hours tied up into 3 events which would normaly take at least 3 hourds on their own. That means we saved 4 hours of time. Kids were very happy, parents were happy and the leadership was estatic as we now don't have to face two or possibly 3 big events back to back. Sure, we had a small thing or two we will revise, but we are thinking of doing it this way again next year

What I am reading is way, way different than anybody else. I do not hear Kamelian saying that he wants the IH to make him the COR or that he wants to take over the Pack or punish the pack. What I am hearing Kamelian say is this: There is something wrong with the pack leadership because : They intimidate parents and scouts into joining only onparticular pack of their( the leaders) choosing.If the scouts ( and incidentally the parents too) choose otherwise, they are dropped of the radar and pretty much ignored nad no more mention is made for advancement, acheive,ment , awards, etc.... The deal - AS I READ IT - is that Kamelian sees that this particular leadership is not only doing a disservice to those scouts and their families, but blantantly making the whole program about thie own personal selfish needs. Not allowing scouts to visit other troops? Not allowing other troops to send invites . Not telling the Cub Scouts about ANY troop's activities or going ons unless it is from the golden ticket troop? These are all pretty much psycho-ish state of minds if you ask me. And yeah, mabey it does seem a bit personal, but who would see it better than a troop within the same CO. Matter of fact, any troop who brings this up "could" sound like they are crying because they are not getting scouts from the pack...but how else could it sound from any and all other troops who happen to noticethis? FRom what I read, Kamelian has the same concerns and feelings that I do: The lesadership in that pack are acting like crazed dictators and there need to be changes made. NOw, stop looking at this from a scouters point of veiw and look at it from a parents point of veiw: "the leaders said it, so it must be true!" Regular parents have no idea what the rules and regulations are or how policies work other than what the leadership tells them. Why would they? They didn't go through the training and they do not even know about things like G2SS or any other SOP's unless the leadership makes them aware. That's how i ended up teaching BB gun at a pack campout - I did not have any idea or knowlede to tell me other wise. And councils and districts do not tend to send training phamplets to non registered leaders/volunteers. So what you have is rogue leadership misleading and flat out lying about scouting for thei own selfish needs. I am not associated with that pack in any way myself, but would love to see those leaders booted not only from the pack, but any and all leadership positions in scouting. Why? Because the scaouts and parents are not being given their rightful chance to choose ( of their own free wil) what troop they may want to joing.. And as Kamelian said himself....it doesn't matter if they choose his troop or not...he just wants the scouts to be offered the oppertunity to know about it or their own chance to choose. Maybe they will all stay away from Kamelian's troop, but at least let that be the decision of the scouts, not the leaders. And that is what I am reading! Gotta go...it's almost PWD time!

pchadbo - the thing about the "value" argument is that people rarely stop long enough to hear about how 70% of the cost of popcorn stays in the state/council/yada yada I totally agree! People who are not in scouting or involved in some way have no clue whatsoever where the money goes or who gets what percentage. Before I became involved...I never even head of BSA having a popcorn sale. Never knew scouts sold it. Now, you have to figure I had no thoughts about breakdowns or percentages. Also, it's easier to hand over a $5 bill because it's only $5. It has nothing to do with percentages or what the breakdown is. It's because it's only $5.00 ...and that's assuming i have a $5 bill in my walet.

The only incident we ever had in our pack was while Pack Family Camping. During the after lunch free time..some scouts decided to climba pine tree. The branches were MAYBE 1" thick where the scouts were climbing. Now, this was during free time, so the kids were under their parents control at this time. Pretty much all of the adult leadership were either talking amongst themselcves about upcoming activitiesor hanging out with their own families. The parents of teh climbing scouts were sitting in folding camp chairs less that 20 feet away and watching the kids. Now, we aren'taperfect LNT pack, but damn if we don't try our best to be as good as we can be. WE mentioned several times during each day anfd the two meeting before the campout about not climbing trees, breaking branches, bushes, metting up the habitat. No need to break trees or bushes for fire wood either as we had it covered. WEll, sure enough, one scout fell from about ten foot up and landed just right to break his collar bone. And you know who's fault it was? Yep! MIne and every other leader. You know who's fault it wasn't? The parents! WEll, that's the way they sw it. But we explained that the scouts were hanging out with the parents, that the parents were watching the whoe time, and that both the scouts ands parents ignored everything we repeatedly said. Not sure if the parents ever decided they were actually responcible or not, but they didn't try to hold us for it.

"I'm not sure how far we (Scouter's) should go or try to go to change things?" Well...maybe it's not so much that we change thing as it is that we lay out several options for them to choose from. Ever notice a kid that is a total brat with a parent, but shapes up when grandparents show up? Mom and dad may allow certain behaviors, but the kids know that the grandparents won't stand for it. The result is, the kids alter their attitude and behavior around trhe grandparents. Of course, it goes both ways: some g-parents spoil kids senseless. I see kids who will ignore a parent until the parent almost whacks them with a 2X4 to get their attention, but at school, church , or elsewhere..that kid is rapt and closely listening. So again, we may not change them, but we are laying out many options and teaching them certain expectations for later in life. Kinda like tha child who can't fix a PB&J sandwhich or find the dirty clothes hamper while living at home, but learns to be a pretty good chef and great luandry person when he moves out. We teach and show them options. After that, it's up to them!

Yeah, I am in agreement with Twocubdad. I'd like a scou to stick with his CO's troop over him leaving. I prefer it, but don't expect it. BUT.....I'd only want a scout to do that if it was the best fit for him. All troops being equal, I'd like him to pick a home troop. But if another troop is the BEST fit for the scout for HIS reasons..then I think he should go there. The only issue I see here is a bunch of pack leaders not allowing ( not that they have the power) their cubs to visit or see troops other than the one they chose for the cubs. And buy what the OP said some parents used for the reasons - not wanting to rock the boat or upset leaders - is an example of intimidation and strong arm tactics by the current pack leadership. Makes me wonder what happens when those leaders cross over to the troop...do they decide everything else for the scout too?

Twocubdad brought up a great point when he said a scout should be loyal to it's CO. I agree with that too. But at the same time, a scout should be earnestly loyal to his own true best needs too. Now, I tend to like to see a Cub Scout crossover to a troop within his own CO, but I want him to have looked around at a bunch of other troops too. If he still goes with the current CO's troop,that's cool as long as he gave an honest openminded look at ALL the available options. But this got meto thinking about one aspect of staying within a singular CO: What other experience or other points of veiw are you missing? I mean, uaully,a Webelos den leader will cross over with his boys and become either a ASC or committee right? And granted, there is not the same lever of direct contact or leading as there wonce was....but you still are working under the influence and way of thinking of that keader. What I mean is this: If you stay in a small town al your life and never ever leave it ..not even for vacation or a shopping excursion....I mean NEVER go outside that town...you can be missing a very big picuture of life and experiencing anything other than what you know. Kinda like if for some reason, your kindergarten teacher somehow managed to go up a grade every year, and you always end up with that teacher. All your educational experience is based on THAT teachers thought process and point of veiw. So, even though I like to see scouts stick with their original CO ( after a thorough and honest look around and decision process) , maybe it would be more beneficial for them to go to another troop to get a different mental experience? Your thoughts?

Sounds like they are saying that you don't wear it on your uniform no matter what...EXCEPT if you are at a formal Eagle occasion. usually, it;s easier to make a general rule or statement , but put ammendments or exception under the place where those exceptions take place. Know what I mean, instead of listing every single exception to the rule in the general rules, you list it under the specific case it becomes an exception.

WEll, this part is actually okay and correct. The two units are seperate units independant of each other and have very different programs. One does not need the other to charter, recharter or exist. Matter of fact, you have to charter or recharter that way. You cannot have a joint recharter, The same person can deliver two different recharters to the scout office at the same time, but still two seperate sets of papers. Yeah, they are being jerks about everything else, and it is a very nice gesture to give the in house troop a first chance veiwing, but that's about it. After that, the pack and troop are two very independant and seperate entities.

Kam, there is nothing tha says that you cannot talk to the parents yourself. Any negativity that this might seem to cause is already cancelled out by the negativity of the pack leaders and their refusal to work for the Cub SCouts interests over their own interests. What night/ time does the pack meet? What night times do the troop meet? Nothing says you cannot print out flyers to the pack members or advertise at the doors before or after pack meetings. And the thing is, no matter what any of the pack leadershoips says...you are not doing anything but correcting a major dis-service that the packleadership is creating in the first place. It's bad enough to hold back info, but another to treat scouts as lesser individuals or snubb them for having a different view or opinion. Now, I am just a CubMaster myself, but don't take it to mean I am supporting that they stay within the CO. I just think that every scout should have as many oppertunities to look around and make their OWN decision. If they go to "THAT" troop anyways..then so be it. But the pack OWES it to them to let the Scouts and Perents to decide. And like said before, the pack, leaders, and CO have no sayso whatsoever as to Cubs visiting other troops. If the Pack leadership tries to act toughman about it, give your DE or SE a call. Tell them that alot of parents are seriously considering dropping from the pack and no longer supporting ( selling or buying) popcorn .

Tuoc Syag, Having thought about your questions for a week now, I think I might have a different set of answers for you. Question 1: Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts? In addition to my scouting pursuits, I am openly gay and have been an atheist since the age of 13. Question 2: Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts? Yeah, I think you are doing okay at it. Perfect? Nah, but I dare anybody else to claim so. See, what I am thinking of reminds me of two sets of circumstances. In both cases, people were considerd pretty much good hearted and good role models - except for one detail. Early Americal colonials were representatives of England. We had the skills to go to a raw land and settle trhere . We didn't have fancy servant prepared meals and sleep in our existing homes. Everything was started from scratch. We did stuff that royalty couldn't do to save their lives, yet we were considered lower class by the blue bloods and aristocracy. We were practically just common serfs. But we didn't like it and we stood up and fought to be our own men. Technically, we were traitors and breaking the law. But we made ourselves into heros, right? And I stand behind what we did. Just because somebody madea a rule doesn't make it right. Another scenario I can think of is Rosa Parks. The only reason anything and everything about what happened is because of one single factor: skin color. She was considered a lower class citizen , not because she stole, because she lied or because she killed, but she along with an entire race were considered untrustworthy and not role models because of theuir skin. She decided she had enough. Now the difference is that your situation only involves a club. This club is not vital to living, having basic freedoms or even having a right to loin. It's just the same as an all womens fitness club. It does discriminate against men, but you know what? It's PRIVATE! That and the fact I can join many, many clubs that allow men. So, back to your question. ARe you a good role model ? WEll, it all depends on the person looking at you. I think you are doing okay and that you overcame an obstacle in the path you were taking. WEther you are a patriot or a criminal is in the eye of the beholder. But I also see it like this: Cops are paid to enforce the law. There are some laws that cops think are stupid, Some that need to be changed. Some that need to be tougher, some that need to be more lenient. AAnd there are some that cops think should be scrapped. But that doesn'tmean cops don't like their job or feel that being a cop is a bad thing. They still take pride in their job abd still do what they can to protect the public. I think this is the case with alot of adult leaders. They may not agree with ALL of scouting's rules, but still buy into and follow the program in general. So aagin, as a rale model, you are doing okay. It's like you acted in civil disobedience . Wether to prove something or personal gain make a slight difference. But , like the cop, I would still have to follow BSA's laws concerning your membership.