Scoutfish

okay, I have a question, and I am not attacking anybody, but asking a serious open question: So let's suppose I specifically target hispanics at my next roundup. lets say I recruit enough that my pack becomes 10% hispanic . 1) Why am I focusing on stuff that seperated race instead of just working on an all inclusive program. 2) Suppose I do recruit 10 hispanic scouts and 1 bilingual parent. Does that parent have to run from den to den translating for the non english speaking parents? I mean, Iam assuming that I am recruiting more than one rank. 3) Come Pack meeting time, how do I maintain a smooth, seemless yet decently short meeting when a percentage of my scout's parents and family have no idea of what is going on? 4)As soon as I make a point of maintaining reewcords, paperwork, and making a point of having "X" number of Hispanics, how long before I have to set a goal of and maintain a racially balanced ration of Blacks, Whites, Hispanics and Asians. How long before my pack folds because we are known as: A) The Affirmitive Action Pack B) We spend too much time and energy worring about racial diversity and percentages and TAY's that we burn out before even working the basic scout program. Like I said before, I don't recruits Hispanics, over Whites or Asians or Blacks. I don't recruit blondes over brunetes. I don't recruit rich over poor or Catholics over Baptists. I just go out their and aim for the most importantly signifigant of all groups....BOYS! Seems to me that tghis will end up being more of a racial/cultural divide than a inclusion.

Well,like I said, I'd COACH him, not take over the running of the den or meetings. Just help out and slowly step back a bit more each time. And our Tiger den leaders do use ADL's. They might be den registrats or be the ones who keep up with the paperwork,roster/attendance , advancements or just help the DL prepare and set up beforethe meeting. Call them admin assts if you want.

Well, I wasn't thinking of "Tiger Coach" in any offical sort of sense. Never occured to me as a matter of fact. I just meant act as a temporary coach to the new Tiger DL until he's comfortable with the job. Same thing I guess, but I was saying it in a informal way. Yeah, that's the way I figure it: as CM I am responcible in seeing the DL's present a quality program for the cubs..so wether directly or indirectly, it still falls on me. Hmm. WEll that answers me right there doesn't it! Thanks Twocubdad! edited because...well..I just can't spell! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

We do not have a pack trainer..at least not in title. It is something i sam pursueing for next year though_ gettinga dediscated trainer who will do just that: train the entire pack and keep all training up to date. This year, I was a new CM and never had to deal with having a new DL. I went out and personally bought him a Cub Scout Leader Book, Program Resources book and a Cub Scout Leader How To book. He took his on line specificl and essentials training when he took his mandatory YP traing - all before filling out and turning in an application. But still, taking those tests is nothing like sitting in front of a bunch a kids...and parents.

Your last post was a really nice,short, clean summary. I get what you are saying. Sometimes I will fight something on the principle of it alone. While I do not push bad behavior to fight bad behavior...maybe it's time to call the ASM out in front of everybody at a meeting and ask him why he..with his much older maturity level and extra years of wisdom and experience - feels like he has to act like a child ? Maybe tell him the troop should copy his "guilty by association" practice and ban not only his son, but him and his wife too. Why not since the ASM follows this practice. Basically, make him out to be the jackass he is being. Even if he doesn't change, enough members of the troop may tired of it and ready to leave to the point the CO has to tell him to pack his stuff. I guess it comes down to this: If you don't want this guy to kill then troop....your gonna have to fight it out. And you're gonna have to fight it hard! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I've been thinking about something. I won't claim to think that I'm the only one who has thought of this as I am pretty sure I am not! This year, I took over as CM in June. Had a few extra months before roundup to get familiar with the job, Just before Roundup, I met with a homeschool dad who was interested in being a Tiger DL. COOL! I didn't have to recruit one. But as you all know, each year, you have a brand new green Tiger DL. No experience whatsoever, scared they will screw up, and spend maybe...3 or 4 months just getting used to the idea before they get that polished feel to them. Yeah...typical stuff. Now,as a CM, during den meetings( we all meet at the same time at the CO) I really don't have much to do. I do Q&A with anybody before and after the meetings, but during...I'm the guy sticking pencils to the ceiling. So maybe this upcoming new season, I will act as a Tiger Coach and help the new DL with the first 5 or 6 meetings - each time stepping back a little more and more until I am just in the way and the DL breathes easier without me there. And during that time, the new DL will be learning who to ask to be ADL's. Now, I'm not really typing every single detail as it would take too much typing and I know you don't want to read it all But just my basic idea. But your thoughts and any previous experience with it would be appreciated!

Good call Basement! Also figure as your experienced DL's leave the program AND you have a big surge in Tigers and Bears...you end up witha bunch of non experienced leaders planning the program for the whole pack. Know what I mean? Last year, the number of Wolves doubled and we had around 30 new Tigers join up at roundup. That equated to 5 tiger DLs nad 2 new Wolf Dl's. At a leadership meetuing, that's 7 votes that have no experience. BNot saying they ruined the program, mind you, but the potential is there when the experiened DL's that finally have gotten good at what they do leave,and the new people who are activity shy step in. Some parents have to learn that a kid won't die from getting muddy or dirt on their faces - although I have heard some CDC- grade quality arguments otherwise By the time parents learn that kids get dirty, get scrapes and also that it is okay to let kids fail and make mistakes..those parents are crossing out and becoming great troop committee members.

You know, being as I am outside the situation, and do not have any personal connection or experience with it, I cannot see it exactly the way you are.................................. BUT: It seems to me that...well......it's like watching a kid try to pet a dog only to get bit and then repaeting it over and over because he wants to pet the dog. So your youngest wants to join. Why? Does he have a friend in that troop? Is all that is wrong( and I mean wrong in such a huge way) worth just hanging witha friend? I mean, If I went to an establishment and got robbed,beat, and generally mistreated up every night...I don't care if all my freinds were there...I would go there myself. Again, I am looking in fromthe outside, and do not have the connection to the troop you have/had....but it seems to me trhat no matter how much you want to pet that dog, no matter how much you envision it or practically taste it, and even if you are soi sure it will be different this time...... the dog is gonna bite you again! Why? Because that is the nature of that dog.

My bad, I need to clarify: Not an offical state vanity plate, but just a metal or plastic aftermarket plate. Kinds like the ones you buy at WalMart for sports teams or at The track for NASCAR teams. I can't seem to find any company that either offers them or allows custom design your own plates for a price. Everything seems to be a "This is what we stock" situation.

I'm proud of being a CubMaster and scouter. Never been shy or afraid of wearing my uniform and never once felt embarassed about who I am or what I do. I know there are plenty just like me. So how about those of us who would put a vanity plate on our vehicle to show what we do? I am fairly artistic, so I can always paint my own CubMaster-Pack 235 tag, but I'd rather have one that is more professionally made and more apt to withstand the elements and UV fade than what a few jars of model paint will do. Any of you know where I can buy a plate like this for a reasonable price? Thanks! Edited because, though I may be artistic, I am not spellistic! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

To go along with what TwoCub Dad said: There is a element of "Is this it?" as you go through Cub Scouts too. Brand new Tiger Cubs think it is the most awesome thing when they go to camp and get to shoot a BB gun at a bona fide gun range completel with a rangemaster. It's awesome that they get to shoot an honest to goodness real bow and arrow too. The archery and BB guns are the creme de la creme of the camp activities. As a second year Webelos, the same two activities are the creme de le creme of activities ..except by now, most of those scouts have nicer, newer, better, and more powerfull versions at home. At the last campout we ent to, my 9 year old Webelos son shot a Red Ryder spring air B gun at a paper target 15 feet away,and a foot off the ground. Archery wasn't even open. You could see the boredom on his face( in that activity), but what else could he do? Other activities were geared towards new and younger scouts. After we got home Sunday afternoon, he went out and shot his 830 feet per second air rifle at target 120 feet away. The next afternoon, after I got of work, we shot HIS .22 semi-auto rifle at soda cans full of water. I'm not saying that camps should have a bunch of scouts shooting semi auto rifles, but there needs to be more degrees of seperation and more advancement in activities as they rank up. Not entirely, but for the most part, Webelos can't do that much more than Tiggers. Sure, they can den camp, and they can climb a wall ( if your camp has one) and use a Bow saw. As far as day riding bikes...most all of them do that anyways at home of with friends. Nothing gained there! So there are a couple of things that can do, but then what? Anybody still wonder why they might want to go to the trading post and buy Cowtails and get jacked up on Dr Pepper? It's either that or make macaroni sculptures with the rest of the scouts.

I have only been doing the roundtable thing on a regular basis for about a year now. Before that,it was hit and miss. So basically, I'm saying this: I'm still new to the whole RT thing. But it seems to my unexperienced eye, what the RT problems are: Everybody here ( for the most part) has said that RT is or is supposed to be for "X" type activity only. They think it should be for that one thing....and nothing else. Of course, not everybody has the same idea of what "X" is. Well, that's great, but what if the things that makes up "X" type activity are running smoothly? Then what do you do for RT? And during the course of the year, various things pop up. Situations arise that need to be addressed. What's the best place to adress these things? RT! The roundtables I have been to have covered, Recharter, Popcorn, Council/ District year long planning meetings, Camp preview, Program Preview, Journey to Excellence, Roundup schedules,etc.. I have only seen it become a break away session twice: Once for District PWD and once for info on YPT and other required training classes. Again, this isn't something i have done for a long time, so I can't say how it has changed from what it used to be or how it's not being run like it should. But I can say, in my district anyways, Round Tables are left flexible to meet whatever needs our Ditrict needs to be met. And there are usually at least 2 and sometimes 3 people representing 95% of all the units at any given roundtable meeting. Except my unit. Usually it's just me because over time, our pack has somehow slowly seperated itself from all but the basic mandatory council/district communication. But I'm working on that. Anyways...RT should be flexible. As soon as it becomes a ridgid, non-flexable thing..then it starts to fail the units it's supposed to serve. Our needs change, Issues change, things that come up unexpectedly are just that: unexpected. RT's need to be able to adjust for them. So I'm not saying RT's should be only for Leader training, but they shouldn't automatically exclude them either. If nothing else pressing is going on and you have a big handfull of leaders who need to renew their YPT..then why not? Maybe the district or council is at a point where alot of experinced leadership has crossed out or retired. Now you have a bunch of newbies who need to have an orientation about...whatever. Granted, RT can't be a wide open anything and everything goes meeting, but it should be flexible.

Personal experience stories related to subject matter are great and often times sink the point of the subject further. I'm all for that. But I do hate when one instructor happens to sit in another instructors class and at some point, it' s all about: " We went to "X" together and Jimbo did some funny stuff. We had a great time" But the what, how it relates to the class or subject and any meaning is never revealed. It's a "you had to be there" inside joke. I love the cooking sessions. Maybe becuase I love to eat! Alot of the sae material gets covered in many differet classes I go to. That's cool because sometimes you see something in a different light suddenly. But the food is always new or different.

Unless those "know it all decided before hand that they know it all and therefore don't need the training. What I am trying to say is not that ALL people think they know better, just that some do. Likewise, not all leaders resent training because of it being disrespectful or a waste of time. I have seen both myself. Some "potentail" leaders have to be discountd because they are all on board about becoming an adult leader, but as soon as you mention training, they give you a opatronizing smileamd wave away the thought of training because they have been camping since they were 10 and their best friend's third cousin was a Boy Scout . But likewise, I also hate to go to a training where the instructor will spend twice as much time talking about something that they and Ed did 3 years ago ( yuk, yuk, yuk here) at a Resident Camp Staff after camp party and oh you should have been there...than what the training course is about. My only point was it's not just one kind of person or just one reason people don't want to train. Some are tired of not being in the little clique of fun and merryment the trainers share. Others are born camping experts without ever setting foot in the woods. Some saw a tree once and therefore already know it all. Me? I just try not to imagine choking the instructor when they spend 30 minutes of a 45 minute session talking about their daughters pink and sky blut tafita ballerina costume and how so precious she was and how the whole audeince absolutely loved her more than any other contestant - except the crooked judges! Ain't that right Ed?

As a side topic of this post: One of the main purposes of Cub Scouts is to prepare boys for Boy Scouts , right? Well, as CubMaster, I do on occasion tell some of the younger cubs( Tigers and Wolves and Bears) that if they stick it out and hang in there until Boy Scouts, then they , instead of their parents, will basically run the show. I tell the Cubs that as Boy Scouts, they decide when and where to go camping, what to buy to eat, what and when to cook, etc... The way I see it, having a den split into 2 patrols ( while remembering - "But not really" ) is a very small step into letting those boys get a feel for being "bigger" . We let Webelos camp on the den level and well..teach them Boy Scout stuff, not really Cub Scout stuff. They have activity Pins and not beads, They just earn more activity pins and not electives. So Tigers is a catagory of Cubs in itself, Then Wolves and Bears are lumped togethjer, then you have Webelos. Each one is supposed to be a step higher in the process of grooming future boy scouts. Yeah, grooming isn't really the right word, but I can't think of the right one. Having a "but not really" patro; within a den is a non issue to me as long as it is just a "but not really" patrol and it is within the den.

I was an ADL in a Bear den of 24 boys. Way too many. I as well as the other ADL's wanted to split into "at least" 2 dens, if not 3 dens. We had to routinely split into 3 groops just to acomplish anything. Advancement and awards were always lacking and paperwork was either behind or just not existant. I fibnally brought this up in a leaders meeting and for some reason, the DL and his wife took this as personal insults from the whole pack. Not sure why. So from that perspective, I understand neding to split your dens. But I also have some "real world" understanding too. What I mean by that is - while BSA guideline can easily tell you to recruit more DL's and ADL's and lead you to believe that parents and volunteers are just lined up waiting to be asked...we know better! Sometimes you have to use and deal with what you got. Some people will end up wearing 2 or 3 hats. They don't want to, but know that if they don't it WONT get done. In your case, I am assuming that the help isn't there. Ideally, you should have 2 seperate dens. But in the real world, you do what you have to do with what you have. And if it works out doing the patrol ting...then that's great! Just remember ( as you said) they are 2 patrols within 1 den and are always a den, not a patrol.

Dessrt and Seattle, You both bring up great points. When I took BALOO, I was disappointed in many of the different sections of the class. I felt like they were just common sense things: Don't let cub scouts use matches to start white gas cookstoves. Really? I figured I'd give my son a 1 gallon can of gas and a Bic lighter and wish him luck. But over the years, I have realized that some parents WOULD do just that. Alot of leaders as well as potential leaders do indeed have the mindset that" I have ben camping all my life! Ain't nobody gonna tell me how to do "X" !" Thing is, I know plenty of guys who's dads would drive with a beer between their legs and who would use a gallon of gas to light a charcoal grill. They would hand their 5 year old sons lighters and M-80's to play with beacuse "Well damit I did it as a kid and I turned out fine!" And the thing is..I will bet $$ that each and every one of you has at least 1 parent in your unit like that. There is that one parent that made you say: "If he/she becomes a leader, then I'm out!" How many threads have been written about a parent who sees no issue with bringing a beer to a campout ? I'll bet that a little over half of us just get annoyed by training that we are already beyond in the learning or experience tense of it. But at the same time..how do you know what you know, how do you know that is actually scouting urban myth, and how about the "Iv'e been doing this for so long- you wont tell me anything" know. Kinda like driver's ed. Most of us probably had already driven vehicles and knew most all the practical rules of the road. But you still have the ones who absolutely know a ticket is void if the cop doesn't wear his hat when he writes it. If nothing else, training Can seperate the trutrh from the friction. So, some of us may resent being "talked down to" at training. But the resentment can also be from those who "already know everything they need to know". You just can't put it all in one catagory.

WOW! I want to go! Watch some old "American Gladiator" shows or those Japanese game shows. Plenty of ideas there! Physically active and hilarious at the same time!

Incidentally, in one of those instances of cross uniforming, the class being taught ( that I was a student at)did not suffer one bit as a result of a uniform being worn incorrectly. Just saying.

The reason I brought up the Uniform Inspection quote was because of what I have seen: Scouters who perform more than role in scouting and sometimes that role crosses from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting to whatever else. I have seen Boy Scout leaders put the blue Cub Scout shoulder loops on their boy scout uniform while teaching Cub Scout leaders at a Pow-Wow. They also wore a Jambo patch in it's correct place. BUT...you know the uniform wasn't correct because it was still a BOY scout uniform with Cub Scout loops. Likewise, I have seen Cub Scout leaders who are also serving a dual role in Boy Scouts swap out their shoulder loops to green and do something at a Boy Scout event. And in that situation, the Cub Scout uniform had a temporary patch ( such as a Council camporee, distric event, or even a Pow-Wow patch ) over their right pocket. In that case, the temp patch is okay other than the fact that the person was trying to make a Cub uniform into a Boy uniform just by switching the shoulder loops. Sometimes, this is seen by other scouters who wonder why a distric or other than Jambo patch is in a Jambo patch position. Not saying it's right, correct or anything else. Just saying this could be what is sometimes seen.

Eagle. Oh,I understand that completely. Like I said, I have no reason to believe you are misleading anybody or trying to push a non-truth. It's just that - it doesn't make sense...kinda like alot of the stuff we hear from others.

Well, offical rules say..blah, blah blah, blah.. Okay, While Webelos Scouts can use patrol patches instead of den numbers, they are still considered a den and not a patrol. Cub scouts does not have patrols. But having said that...we realize that - at least in the case of Webelos Dens - we can "PRETEND" they are patrols or something to that effect. So nothing changes except they vote on a patrol patch and name. They think it's cool, brings trhem closer to making deciseons as a working group, and everything runs smoother in theory, right? So why not use it for Bears? Again, not really patrols ( as you already noted) and it's not offical ( again - as you already noted) and as with the case with Webelos..they are still refered to as a den. The only thing I would say is this: Unlike Webelos who as a den , get to wear patrol patches instead of a den number patch, your Bears can not and should not. But after that..if it works, go for it. There are bigger points and issues to the program than to worry about a den being broken down into two patrols within the 1 den. If it works for you, and it helps the boys in the program..then have at it! Edited because I spell as good as your average dachshund!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Funny thing about towns being called "speed traps". I used to live in one. So what made it a speed trap? Probably the fact that it was a small town and the people who drove 60 mph in a 45mph zone figured that they were better than the police dept that gave trhem the ticket. I mean, only 15 mph over the speed limit and I get a ticket? In bigger cities, you stand a better chance of missing a cop. Smaller town such as mine where the whole town was only 1/2 mile long on a US hiway...well, chances are good that the police concentrate more patroling on the main place speeders are lickely to be at. And I saw it through the eyes of Being Captain of the fire dept and rescue squad. Most wrecks and the ocasional fatalities in our town were the result of people who speed through the town and just knew they could beat the light. Small town, so who cares about the rules? Well, the town and it's police do! And Wah-Lah! You have a speed trap! Or as I know it to be: A town that enforces the rules that the ticketed decided to ignore.

For all the typing I did,that is what I meant to say. There may be many things a troop/ pack is not doing...simply because they are not aware of the oppertunities. That's the way it was in my pack. Not that the leaders or parents didn't want to do them or didn't care...they just weren't aware of them.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

"How did this thread deteriorate into matters of race?" Ah, I think that is the point of te original post! The way I se it, it hasn't deteriorated , but rather, expanded into more enlightenment. The 4th paragraph of the original post was: So the original post was basically about this persons' opinion versus that persons. And the race comenyts fit right in. "Nazi", "Red", "Black" and "white" are perfect examples. I myself never thought the expression "Soup Nazi" would be taken hurtfull or offensively. It was so common and to be honest...wan't tossed around with any kind of anger, just showing stinginess which as was pointed out, is not even close at all to the atrocities commited by the Nazis. So I can at least say, I will not use a certain term anymore even though, when I said it, any kind of mean spiritedness, hate or malice was the farthest thing from my mind. So instead of deteriorating, I think the thread has expanded and enlightened. Which too, also follows the original post of one person thinking this while another thinks that when it concerns the same subject.