Scoutfish

Yeah, like somebody said earlier, when more info comes out after we commented, we are very apt to change our line of thinking. Just a felony conviction itself doesn't say much. People do dumb stuff at 18 and can totally change their attitude and behavior 180 degrees in just 10 years. Jerks end up being nice people, nice people can become total jerks over time. So in itselfg, not a very descriptive term. But then you bring in more details: The guy is a loner ( in itself not a big deal). The boys really, really neds some mentoring ( again, not a biggie) They get in trouble ( thjat's norm,al) dad may be drugging them( again, could be stupidity working there), They bring a bat to school in a threat to kill somebody( Look, lets be honest, we all say things we don't mean, : "If my child doesn't come home soon, I'll kill him" When what we really meant is we are gonna whip his tail or at the very least, he's in BIG trouble! But one thing here or there isn't a big deal. But add them up and you have problems. Yeah, these boys do need help and mentoring. ALOT OF HELP! But the help you want to offer may not be the right kind of help and/or you may not be qualified to offer it. On top of that, you have to look at the bigger picture: How will this affect the pack and other scouts if something happens? How will Mr.Dad affect other scouts in his position of leadership or affect them in not doing anything as a leader at all but staying in his tent? Will this teach the boys to stay in there tent if they just don't like something? Seriously,. the boys pick up on alot more than we give them credit for. They may not understand whay Mr.Dad stays in his tent, so they might use their own resons to do the same. As far as wife/counselor giving out info...yerah, that is wrong - althjough I understand why it happens. But the thing is, if it ever makes light of day and Mr.Dad finds out, he could persue slander charges and defamation against you, the leadership and the entire pack. And truth is, it doesn't matter if the slander part has no leg to stand on...the whole process will look bad on the pack, district and council. And if you don't like the guy, it's a big wste of time and energy to humor him just to keep the boys around.

It is owned by the CO, but it's "usually" not that the CO demands it, but more of a what you uise it for is under the control of the CO. The biggest reasonm is accountability, and by that, I don't mean a bank ledger, but what you do with it. You can't raise funds throug scouting so all members of the pack can buy tvs or computers. You can't raise money just to increase your income. By the CO being the actuall owners of funds, there is a set of precaustions in place. The also, if the pack raises a bunch of money, and then folds due to whatever problems, it keps the money with the CO and not split up between unit members ( seas the previous reason). But I imagine it was more of a technical question and that you don't actually have an issue with the money. Same with our pack, WE have never had an issue with our CO over this, but re-mention who the actual owner of funds, unit numbers, unit equipment, etc every time new adult leaders join up. And then,it's not a problem, but more of a preventative measure as in the past, we had members plan on standing up to the CO and threaten to take all money, all equipment and the unit number to another church. It was actually funny since no other member agreed with the rogue member about the original issue, plus we knew who the real owner was. In your case, sounds like a "Write it down just in case something happens one day".

"One of the interesting things was that when we began to register a cell phone number was a required field. This is the best news eldest son has had in a long time. He takes this to mean he's allowed to get a cell phone now so he can go to Jambo" I love his thinking! It's so entertainming! Tell him that when it asks for his address, it means he is allowed to move out on his own too!!!

Oh man! That reminds me of something! Used to be a time way, way back when...my neighbors used to throw their household trash into a pit in their back yard ( right on the edge of the woods) and burn it once a month. Well, my best friend - who along with me, were about 13 or 14 at the time, had found some old cans of motor oil in his dad's garage. I mean the round cylendar cans. You know, you had to use a can opener or that fancy funnel/can popper to get the oil out! Some were cardboard sides with metal top and bottom, some were all metal. Anyways, we were burning the trash and he threw one in the fire. We waited and waited and nothing happened. So we tossed 3 or 4 more in. Waited, waited..waited and nothing. So we started playing around with other stuff and completely forgot about the oil. The first mushroom looking cloud shot about 30 foot into the air. It was so totally cool looking! The second one looked less like a mushroom, but that's probably because the 3rd and 4th oil cans exploding ruined the mushroom shape. But they did go about 50 foot into the air. WE thought it was sooooo cool.... 'cept when the trees and yard caught on fire. Good thing we had a waterhose right there and a shovel and that the oil was so old that the exposion was the worst of it. So. The question is : Why were we entrusted to handle the trash burning in the first place? As 13 years olds, it was a cool chore to do. But as an adult,....can you really be surprisd that two teenage boys could find a way to blow the yard up?

I'd love to go camping, but it's to much like broil right now! Nah, I can take the heat, but the humidity gives me pause. Actually, it's only at bed time that the humidsity really bugs me. Other than that, I'm ready to go!

Yeah, a conviction isn't necessarily always a sign of bad behavior. It also can be a sign of being in th wrong place at the wrong time or an idiot lawyer. For instance, I had a friend who had an complete date with a girl. She was a knock out and dressed hot. She claimed to be 21 years old. She had a 1 year old son too. A few weeks later, he gets arrested for statuatory rape. He was 20. She was 16..but looked 25. He was about 3 hairs shy of going to jail and having to register as a sex offender due to this girl. Okay, he should have/could have checked into it a bit more. But like I said, she looked and dressed much older than she was. She had a kid too. Short of demanding an id and SS card, what could he do? Had he been convited, he would of had to get on sexual offenders registry . In all honesty, hi only crime was lack of judgement. Now, I am not saying all convictions mean nothing. But I am saying that sometimes the circumstances behind a felony convition are due to limted options in charges and sentances handed out. Might be somebody breaks in your house and holds a knife to your childs throat. You take him out with a gun. Turns out he's a senators son and a member of some big time church. Thanks to politics, you get charged with all kinds of bogus stuff. And because of the senators public weight, and his popularity ..and money too. You get convited of a felony. Simple huh? Then again, something that was illegal 25 years ago may be not only legal, but also a morally accepted norm in todays society. Point being, take each case on it's own merits.

I myself, did not read in any polace where Moose said or implied that we need to change our rules to meet the UK's rules. Nowhere did she say that our rules were inferior. She did not say BSA should change their rules or model them to match any other country's rules. What I got out of it was this: ( in no particular order or importance) 1) Another country ( in tis case, the UK) realizes that being gay isn't something you catch like a common cold. It isn't spread by touch or breathing. Never said she is for, or against, or wetrher it is right or wrong. Just that it's not a disease or contageon. 2) People in MANY countries, not just us or them, tend to think we are superior and others are so inferior, but we think it without actually knowing why or how it came to be. Truth is, that IS arrogant thinking. WE think we are absolutely perfect, and all other countries are just flat out wrong,m backwards or mislead . But our reason for thinking so is pretty much because they are doing it differently than us. Not because it doesn't work as well or that there is flawed logic...but just because it is different than the way we do it. 3) She never said we look at other countries to improve, but said all people SHOULD look outside themselvse and see what is going on. By looking around, you might see a better way of doing something. You want proof? Look at electronics and car companies. Everybody is looking st what the competitions latest bell or whistle is. Then you try tio improve on that. You look at what doesn't work, make a note of it, look at what does work, make notes on that too. Then you try to incorporate the good stuff while avoiding the bad stuff. You do this in order to have the best product. Another example? America itself. Yep, we are a country made up of people and all kinds of ideas from a bunch of other countries. Pretty much everything we do was at one time, influenced by something that may have evolced due to the influeence of another countries traditions or way of doing things. You celebrate Christmas? America didn't invent the observation, or the celebration, didn't invent the Christmas tree, or anything along those lines. We cook hotdogs and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July. We didn't invent hotdogs, we didn't invent fireworks or even the idea of celebrating with fireworks. 4th of July was all about leaving another countries way of living ( in a nutshell, I mean) Our founders came up with the bill of rights and the Constitution. But it wasn't like they spontaneously came of with every single thought all alone. Alot of it was specifically to prevent what was law in other countries. You ever hear of tunnel vision? It's when you are so focused on something, or just oblivious of any outside line of thought. Determination and having a vision is awesome, Tunnel vision is bad. 4) Everything I have seen Moose write was directed towards equal and fair treatment for all. If it's okay for one, then do it for all. If it's not okay for this group, why expect that group to be okay with it. But I have not see Moose say BSA should, ought to, needs to or should have to adopt, change, relax, or rewrite any rules due to the UK, or gay scouts. "If the discussion is over, then must assume that the only reasonable conclusion is that the BSA standards are the best for youth in the USA." No, not really. You can also assume that the reasonable conclusion is that the rules we have within BSA are the rules we have. We can accept them, we can follow them, and we can abide by them, but that does not mean we absolutely think they are the best or without flaw. WE may see the need to change this, dreop that, add something else. We might see a needs to clarify or tweek another rule. If we really thought that, about half of all forums would have to be dropped. No more argueing why BSA should do this or that. No more wishing for uniforms made elsewhere, no more criticizing this procedure or that rule, No more lamenting anything to due with WB21 vs WB. Not another peep about patrols, process for Eagle rank or anything that BSA allows with LDS units ....and last but not least, any thought or ideas about local options would be moot! Everything Moose said was said in an open and objectively observant way. And if we and all people did that, things would really be beter all around. That's how we learn, become better, faster and more efficiant. WE start out one way, and learn not only through experience and failure, but throug observation and watching others - wether our next door neighbor, the next town over,the next state over or the next country over. Afterall, if they are BSA rules, we have to accept them as the best for youth in the USA

"Scoutfish...I think he was referring to less gear and not more." Possibly, but what I listed fits under one arm and weighs about 4 pounds. Plus, it's all stuff I had laying around that I bought way back when for...something that I can't remember now. Basically, I used and recycled what I had, and didn't make a trip to the store or spend any money on it. ....except for some duct tape, but due to offical man law, that doesn't count!

Oh, while I do use my charcoal chimney, I dump my coals in a 2-$1.oo 9'X 13" disposable aluminum pans to dump my hot coals into which sits on top of 4 red bricks . That is my grill! When it is all cool, I fold one pan over the other and sit it in the back of my truck.

The closest I have been to a camping store is "the" camping aisle at Wal-Mart. Tent, air mattress, sleeping bag. Everything else I have "procured" from my job, at home or the local hardware store. My rainfly/ storage closet is a 20'X 12' blue poly tarp. I made a rainfly fraim out of 2 6' pieces of 1"x 1" pre-punched steel angle. I drive them about a foot into the ground. Then I have attached one 6" X 10" X 3/4 " flat wood blocks with a 1" hole drilled into them to the top ends of the angle. I then feed a 12" piece of 1/2 " steel conduit throug the hole in the blocks. This pipe spans across the top of my tent. I allow about a 2' overhang past the front of my tent and about 3 fot above the ground. It goes across the conduit which is about a foot higher than my tent ( airflow and extra insulation from outside) and then floows the contour of my tent and goes on the ground. I have enough tarp that I curl it under itself with about a 5 foot by 12 pocket . I then shove extra stuff in here and it's off the ground by tarp, covers from sky by the tarp, and I can roll the sides around so it's out of the weather. I have a used piece of flat rubber that is 18" by 27" for a doormat. I have a 3' piece of 3/4 galvanized pipe I drive halfway into the ground, and stick a 10' piece of 1/2 galv conduit into which has eyebolts in the top and use it as my tentside flagpole . Contrators twine and two keyrings make my trucks and some extra carabiners make my flag clips. I duct tape an old hammer about 18 inches off theground and use that to secure my haleyard. Yeah, I could do better, but the cub scouts are amazed by my imagination and creativity, and they try to make stuff themselves. Parents like how cheap I am and try it themselves. Personally, I have never bought one camping item from a camping stor or BSA. I use that money for important things like brats and mustard!

You know how it is...anytime you meet somebody new, or want to make an impression, your friend with the very least amount of tact, common sense and who is the most abrassive with stand up in his loudest voice and say something to embarrass you and give a very wrong picture of you! I've seen it on both sides. I have some German frieds who thing we are curiously funny: We build cars that go from 0 to 60 mph in 3 seconds, and will top out at 200 mph, and we drive them on hiways where you get ticketed for going over 55 mph. Anyways, what is something that Americans do whe they go abroad? They try to do whatever they want based on American laws and customs, and when stopped by the police, cry out loudly: "You can't do this! I am an AMERICAN!" as if the law enforcment of other countries are suddenly supposed to let us go. How about when we are around non english speaking people, and we think that by speaking slowly and loudly, it suddenly becomes universal? Or we add extra syllables and think we are speaking the host countries language? " I need-o to use-o the telephone-o to call-o my hotel-o! Yep, that's instant Espanol right there buddy! But, it's not all of us. or even most of us, just the loudest, most abrassive and embarrassing of us! But I also have seen others move here only to tell me why thier former country was so much better and why we should do this, this, this and this to be just like that place that was so spectacularly awesome...they couldn't wait to leave it! My point, we are no better or worse, we just do it in a different language! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Used to be a time, where our pack would set up a slip and slide. Everybody wait in line and then take thier turn and then wait...wait..wait again. WEll the few who showed up. Being on the coast and every other member having some access to a pool disn't help. We started going to ball games. Not sure what league they would be: College ball players who want to practice over summer, but didn't quite make it into the camps. Lots of great fun at those games too by the way. Cool contests between every inning. Went to a WWII battleship, ( what boy doesn't love that?) WEnt to a military airshow on a military base. Static displays were 10 times better than the show because you can climb in, sit in, and touch the aircraft. They even accidentally learned stuff too! Went to a revolutionary war historic battleground. Went fishing too. WE are going to spend a day at a pool in July and cook hot dogs and burgers. The whole idea is fun and games and not focused on earning or completing an achievemnts or requirement. Fun, for plain old funs sake. But if they meet the requirements while doing it...then cool! We are also going bowling during our awesomely horrid humid days of August. The biggest thing we found out is this: Don't just pick an activity. Pick something that they don't do every day. Pick something that ech boy can't just do any time he wants. And remember the difference between fun for a boy under 11 versus fun for me or you.

I used to buy some hiking style workboots from RedWing. They cost $140.00 but let me tell you what... THEY WERE AWESOME!!!! Brand new out of the box, they felt like they were 1 year old. Nice, soft and broke in, but not wore out. Like wearing the most comfortable sneakers ever! Lightweight too. 6" upper, both leather and synthetic. Waterproof, but brteathed very well. They were steel toe and had a very flexible fiberglass sole. The lug bottom sole commanded an awesome grip without holding on to anything but the worst red clay. But you know how it is...you find something awesome and they discontinue it!

Okay, the instructor should have confirmed that his class was made up of 15 year olds and older, but at that point, haven't the couts already arrived at camp , settled in , and had already paid for it? Basicaly, they signed up for something and paid for it ....what..at least 2 weeks in advance - without seeing if they were even elligible for it? I wouldn't refund them. I'd tell it does suck and they have my sympathy, but no refund.

Yeah, I know there isn't an offical "B" uniform. But I have heard the uniform shirt referenced as activity uniform, dress uniform and field unifrom. Didn'y know it there was two different styles of unifrom shirt that I should be wearing at a flag ceremony versus a den or pack meeting. Not that I would but two different one - I wouldn't - but I was curious as they all looked alike at the scout shop except for long or short sleeves. Well, when I bought my uniform shirt, they did have the old style shirts on sale for $9.00, just not any left in my size!

I'll be honest, I couldn't tell you if mine is a unifrom or field uniform shirt..or are they the same thing? Has velcro pocket securement instead of buttons, but has the button under the pocket for temp patches. andd that gadget pocket too. Whichj is good for...something I guess? Anyways, it absorbs sweat pretty well - which is a good thing because it also doesn't breath, which causes me to sweat twice as much more.

"Councils have far too frequent assaults and batteries of a sexual nature, usually of the same sex. So there are risks " And this is in a gay excluded scouting environ ment? So the downfall of allowing gay scouts would be what? "Your idea is naive and not workable in a time where councils have problems with sexual abuse." Again, councils that are anti hom,osexual right? But, if you read my post again, I did not say, imply or lean towards anything but segregation. Matter of fact, I said: "Segregate? Absolutely. Goose, gander and all that stuff!" " If it doesn't happen in your area, then someone needs to look into the environment for something that affects the normal hormones of teenagers. The same logic holds true for homosexual youth. To think otherwise is to have magical thinking not grounded in reality" Actually, I'd say that to you. Sounds like it's not a problem in Moose's area, not a problem in my areas, and not a problem in the entire UK. SO, it leads sme to think that maybe there is something in the water in your area that causes the hormones in teenagers to go bezerk. Now here, we have a few teen pregnacies, but so far, none are in scouting. We even have one of those moms from MTV's "16 and Pregnant" tv show living about 28 miles up the road from my house. Neither she or the father are in scouting. So anyways, it still comes down to: Seems to be a bigger issue of heterosexual adults abusing scouts as being the biggest problem of scout abuse in BSA. Not homosexual scouts abusing other homosexual scouts or heterosexual scouts in BSA. My point overall was this: Treat the gay scouts as you would any other scout - segregation and all, expectation of behavior while camping or scouting events, and honor - and you shouldn't have any issues beyond what you already have....which by the way, is without having the gay scout members ( that we are aware of). And that gay people are not an infectious disease. You cannot "catch" gay by knowing, talking to, touching or being near a gay person. You cannot catch gay in the air or by camping along side a gay p[erson. And how do I know this: Because I have true, honest to goodness gay friends , lesbian friends ( well, only two actually) and have 2 gay relatives. Not some 1.5 statistic.

How comfortable are you putting a male & female in the same 2 man tent? You know boys have cooties.. Or is it girls that have the cooties? I cannot understand this line of thinking! EVERYBODY KNOWS that it's the girls who have cooties! But I do agree with the general statement. A tent full of boys ang girls is not the problem. But at some point after they are asleep, it's that one boy and girl who are braver and more bold that "could" be a problem. Or it could be that one boy who likes to go out of his way to sneak a peek.....and by peek, he's the one to pull back the covers of a sleeping girl if he can and try to see something else.... that is the problem. I think for the most part though, it would never be an issue. Same with gays. It's not likely something would happen in that tent either. Nobody is suddenly going to turn gay because it rubbed off on them. Truth be told, if any of the scouts really wants to get active, I imagine they would run off and hide during the day or some other free time activity ..or better yet, do something while not out on a scouting activity on scouting time. They could sand would do whatever they feel like doing after school, during the weekend, while mom and dad are not home, ect..why wait til a group of people are assembled to do something? Truth be told...at least in my camping experiences, it';s the adults "who know better" who do stuff because they forget tents are no better than air when it comes to sound absorbtion. But for the general comfort of people changing clothes - even if all undergarments are still in polace - I'd still segregate tents and sleeping quarters.

Basement, That's not cheap! That's being thrifty!

Let me clarify : At what point do you decide to take off the uniform shirt and wear either a unit t shirt or just wear whatever? For instance, last spring, I worked a Cub Scout Resident Camp. In the early part of the day, I wore a long sleeve compression shirt under a t shirt under my uniform shirt. Not to hot, not too cold. AS the day warmed up, I took the t shirt off and just wore the unifrom shirt over the compression shirt. As the day got warmer still, I took of the uniform shirt and compresion shirt, and wore teh camp t shirt. Yeah, there are times it's obvious: rafting, mud hiking, snow sledding or what not. But here in Norh Carolina ( the humidity capital of the east coast) weather is a bit different. I can wear a uniform over a t shirt in 85 degree weather as long as it's not humid. But it can be 72 degrees and humid...and I am coming out of that uniform shirt and wearing a t shirt. January? WEll, you wouldn't see it anyways with my sweatshirts, jackets or coats on, so why bother right! At pack campouts, I wear the uniform during flag ceremonies, announcements and campfire ceremonies. The rest of the time - t shirt. So, I'm not asking you when I should or shgouldn't wear it, but I am curious as to when you do, and when you decide it's time to come off. Personally, as long as the uniform doesn't hinder me, I'll wear it right on. So what are your parameters for wearing the uniform as opposed to not?

I never iron the pants. WEll, not to get bthat crease in the leg. I hate that! I usually wash them and let them hang dry with those store hangers that have the clips on each end. Pants are not ironed, but have hung so thjey dry smooth. As for the shirt, I turn ythe iron about 3/4 of the to the highest setting, and quickly run the iron over it. I don't put creases in my shirt, but do like the pockets top lay flat andf smooth. Then again, with the shoulder patches and front patches, it's hard to put a crease where it should go if you wanted to have it anywyas. Personally, as long as it doesn't look all wrinkled and wadded up, It's good to go!

Not that it has anything to do with the post, but your last coment reminded me of a cartoon I once saw. Adam was standing there holding an apple and Eve was in the background frolicking in Eden. Next to Adam was a PR rep and he was saying: "By the time we get done spinning this incident,it will look like her fault!"

I agree, treat all the same across the board. What works for one works for all. I am just saying that we shouldn't be scared and assume me that homosexuals are all a bunch of sex craved people just waiting for the oppertunity to jump on us. No more than I'd expect any woman to sudenly make a move4 on me at any camp. Segregate? Absolutely. Goose, gander and all that stuff!

"For me, I think the expectations for everyone, of every age, gender, and orientation, should be that people just refrain from sexual activity at scouting events. Whatever they do at home, with consenting partners of legal age, is their business. But don't bring it on a camp out. For this reason, if those expectations are clear, I'm not too worried about who is in which tents." I AGREE ABSOLUTELY! And there is another side that nobody seems to be thinking about. Having a cousin who is gay, having s few friends who are also gay and having worked at a company with a gay plumber ( start your jokes here... ) I have heard somethimng that most people don't consider. EGO'S! Yeah. WE just asume that since a person is gay, they are just going to instantly and suddenly make a move on us. They are just going to styart hitting on us and making sexual advances. But the question is: Why do you assume they are atractted to you? Why do youi think they would have those feelings for you8? And even if they did, wich is highly unlikely, why do you think they would suddenly and uncontrolably act on it? Look at it this way: Right now in your life, does every person of the opposite sex just constantly hit on you or make passes at you? Do thoser same people just constantly try to get into bed with you? And yourself...do you go around constantly hitting on all the members of the opposite sex? Do you think EVERBODY of the opposite sex is just soooo freaking hot and attractive that you cannot control yourself from making a pass at them? Look asround at coed camps ansd any coed situation. Is there just a huge crows of heterosexual sexual contact and activity going on? Of course not. Maybe that one or two couples who are oblivious of the rest of the world, but not an epidemic of sex freaks. Thing is, even among the two different lifestyles, it's not like you are gong to go to the camp and see people running aroundn naked and having orgies. People do have a sense ( well, most of us anyways) of what is the right thing for the right time and place. Hetero p-eople don't just hit on any and every woman at a camp setting, so why think a gay person would to? And then also consider, the gay person might be in a relationship with somebody and not willing to cheat on their "signifigant other" . Or, they are just like the majority of all heterosexual scouts: They are single and just not really seriously looking or pursueing anybody..they are just looking to do some SCOUTING stuff. I mean seriously, if you want to get your groove on, don't you think you can pick a better place and time that a scout function to do it?

"I think we are all running around the mulberry bush and saying things in slightly different ways, but are really in basic agreement with slight variations and that is ok.. all units have slight variations " Nah, it's not a mulberry bush, it's more like a raspberry plant!