Scoutfish

Big time tongue in cheek! I know that if National hada meeting tommorow and voted with a result of 1005 in favort of uniforms, then published it in every single newpaper, tv news and every other source of media( internet, i phones, twitter, stone tablets, etc,....) - and did it every day for a month...somebody would argue that they really meant only during pow wows! LOL! Settle it once and for all! LMAO!

Yeah, when you can't deny something.... all you have left is insults right? Speaking of straw....... America The Beautiful In 1893, at the age of thirty-three Katharine Lee Bates, an English professor at Wellesley College, had taken a train trip to Colorado Springs, Colorado, to teach a short summer school session at Colorado College. Several of the sights on her trip inspired her, and they found their way into her poem, including the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, the "White City" with its promise of the future contained within its alabaster buildings; *the wheat fields of America's heartland* Kansas, through which her train was riding on July 4; and the majestic view of the Great Plains from high atop Zebulon's Pikes Peak. In the first verse: O beautiful for spacious skies, For amber waves of grain,

I'd say chaos is a matter of perception. A troop meeting might be completely in line, ruuning as it should and be very productive, but in my adult eyes, appear to be chaotic. I think of meetings where a group of ( usually adults in the later 30's to early 50's) get together and sit at tables while one person at a time lectures on about blah blah blah . Think buisness meeting or even college training. In that sense, the boy's meetings are total and utter chaos - in comparison. WEll, You ever tell your 9 year old son to act his age? Did you really mean act 9 years old or were you thinking "Act MY( 39 ) age" ? Chaos might be in the eye of the beholder. And honestly, if a bunch of Boy Scouts age boys hold meeting in the same order as I am used to.... I might start getting worried as they are having "Children of the Corn" tendencies!

I'd say chaos is a matter of perception. A troop meeting might be complete in line, ruuning as it should and be very productive, but in my adult eyes, appear to be chaotic. I think of meetings where a group of ( usually adults in the later 30's to early 50's) get together and sit at tables while one person at a time lectures onabout blah blah blah . Thuink buisness meeting or even college training. In that sense, the boy'smneeting are total and utter chaos - in comparison. WEll, You ever tell your 9 year old son to act his age? Did you really meanact 9 years old or were you thinking "Act MY age" ? Chaos might be in the eye of the beholder. And honestly, if a bunch of Boy Scouts age boys hold meeting in the same order as I am used to.... I might start getting worried as they are having "Children of the Corn" tendencies!

Iknow it's not required..but if you were it, you are supposed to follow certain (hopefully not contradicting ) guidlelines. But I do beleive this to be a great thread that "should" settle the debate that has been going on for a long while.

Oh, we did have lights, but only adult leaders in case of an emergency. And something funy too: Our ACM led the hike. During the short pre hike briefing, he explained to the cub scouts what to expect , etc...and then says: "If you feel something crawl across your leg, don't bother to scream or run..most stuff only bites once!" Seven adults changed their minds and decided they couldn't go hiking , while more scouts decided to go! LMAO!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

If you litter, a bear might get mad and attack you! I like night hikes too. At our last campout, we had a "ABSOLUTELY NO LIGHTS" nite hike. After ...what, maybe 2 minutes...your eyes adjusted to the darkness and you could see way better than having a light which lit up only a tiny area. You could see farther ahead, behind and all around you. What about fotwear? I know there are no "offical" scout footwear, and totally understand that, but what about hiking? Hiking shoes, some sort of boots with uppers that at least cover the ankle for both protection and support? A heavier sole/ lug pattern for various terrain?

I love my uniform. It think it's pretty sharp looking. I like how everything is neat and has it's place (assuming everybody matches) . But one thing I hate, is trying to get my neckerchief to lay right at the collar. Now, I tuck my neckerchief under my collar. Why? Well, that's how I have always seen everybody else do it. But I have seen others wear theirs over the top of the collar. So here's my thing: I do think itb looks neater under the collar, but it is the biggest pain trying to get it to lay flat under the colar and to lay evenly under the cllar on both sides. Then my collar doesn't quite want to lay right at the folding seam. So, I have done some looking, but without knowing the right place, do not know exactly where to look to find out if it should go over or under. I mean, I see the pictures, but over/ under is NOT specifically mentioned! http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34282.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34048.pdf See the uniform guide says under neckwear that it is optional, but refer to insignia guide for specifics, but insignia deals with badges and patches, not neckerchiefs. And as i undersatnd it, long, long ago, in a galaxy not to far at all, shirts were offered without collars. And I read about some older leaders who wear over the collar. Again, I think under looks neater and more clean, but over sure would be easier to do.

Not bad SSS, Not bad at all. But I see a slight difference: Merl: Hey, why are you dressed like that? Boy Scout: Because I'm going to my Boy Scout club. Merl: What kind of club is that? Boy Scout: It's an outdoorsy,activity based adventurous club for people who believe in God or some other form of religion. Merl: That sounds great! I'd love to join, but I don't believe any kind of god exists. Boy Scout: Well, that's a shame because I think you'd like our club. But believing in some sort of god or having religion is a requirememnt. But there are other clubs that do similar things without having to believe in God or religion...you could always join them. Heck, you could start up your own. I bet alot of people might join~! Merl: Nah, I don't want to find another club or start up my own...I just want to stop yours from meeting! I don't like it. It doesn't fit my beliefs , so it must be stopped! Boy scout: Wouldn't it just make more sense to have your own club instead of ruining somebody elses? Merl: I don't care about what other people think...it's all about what people like me think! I only care about myself and people who agree with me. Your club is bad, bad , bad and should be stopped! It discrimminates! ( Discrimination is a sociological term referring to the treatment taken toward or against a person of a certain group in consideration based solely on class or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups. Source: Wikipedia ) Boy Scout: So even though my club has no problems with you or anybody else having their own similar or "like" club, we are bad. Yet you cannot stand to let anybody else have their "own" club, and you are better? Merl: YES! Boy Scout: That doesn't make sense. That's discrimination against us! Merl: Not how we see it.. If WE don't like you, it's not discrimminaton! It's only dicrimination if you don't allow us to join! Boy Scout. But that's not legal according to the 1st Amendmant ! Merl: That's the law because that's how "WE" see it! Boy Scout: The laws also say I can have my club too. Merl: But that's not the PART of the law I'm talking about! I'm only talking about one part of the law, not the whole thing! Boyscout: WOW! That's kinda hateful and un patriotic don't you think? Denying people their CONSTITUTIONAL rights? Merl: Not if it goes against "MY" opinions of what "rights" is! Boyscout: So you'd rather destroy somebody elses club that just make your own. Merl: It's not about me having a club...It's about stopping your!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Well, like I said, I suppose I'd use the brimmed hat if I used one. And I'd probably use it in the summer (ish) time when the sun would pos4e problems. Thing is, my hair seems to get thicker the older i get. I favor a high and tight military flat top haircut because it's soooooo thick.Myhead sweats even when the outside temperature is less than 32 degrees, so hats tend to create an oven effect on my head. So I'd wear it if I spent a alot of continuous time in the sun.

We tell them NO MEDICATIONS so just suck it up! I'm only kidding! I too would like to see how this turns out. As far as I know, we do not have any special permission forms or what not. But then again,we are a pack, not a troop, so at least mom or dad is usually there except in special circumstances. Anyways, I'd like to know just for future reference!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

My only point being( and it's still a question) : If you hada troop of say... 90 boys, couldn't you have 3 groups with 4 patros each? Each group - by whatever name you call it consisting of a "deputy" Sm or ASM and 1 SPL and 1 PL per patrol?

I have a question. It's probably stupid and oversimplified, but I can't halp myself from asking! Can you have "squadrons" in a troop? Maybe not the right term or word, but along these lines: 1 SM to oversee the whole entire troop. Then have 1 ASM for each 32 boys . Each 32 boys and a ASM would be the "squadron/platoon/ regiment...whatever. No, I do not mean to lean towards or imply a military connection, but can't find better words to describe the group. The group could be 32, 22, 16 or whatever. Can you have more than 1 ASM? Can you have "Deputy SM's?"

Well, I am the ADL, and we have two more ADL's , but not quite in an official capacity. Trust me, I do alot of running around, helping out and assisting. I offer help left and right. I offer my assistance alot as well as the two other ADL's. But we can only offer and only react when we are asked. I think he is soo used to doing it all, that he continues to do as much as he can. And yes, paper work is a big issue if you ask me. He( the DL) asked me about being the den registrar. I asked for the roster and got "Well, as soon as recharter becomes official." Then after that,it was " I have to compile it." Then it was " well, I don't have it because of advancement issues" , then turned around and asked parents for any advancement they "might" know of. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that the registrar's job? To record that stuff?? Ok, I'll be totally honest: This guy and his wife have been doing pretty much what and how they want. On his part, it's straight up BSA outdoors/ scout stuff. She isn't quite so with the program...but that's another arguement. I think they have a certain idea of what they think should be done , and if they give up any leadership over the boys, their(her) plan might not get carried out as they(she) see fit. They (he) want/need help, but are too afraid to give up control. And you know... we all have ideas and thoughts as to how things could be done or even things to try. Myself and the other ADL's have suggested ideas for skits ( only 1 performed as a Wolf last year ) activities and field trips. So far, activities are only done at CO in the few remaining minutes on den meeting nights, and fieled trips are only to fire dept. We have offered to do/ lead those activities too. Myself and other ADL have taught/ led flag ceremonies when DL "suddenly" had to oversee a trip meeting, or help oversee a fundraiser planning session. And we did it with less that 5 mins notice.We were put on the spot and came up with an activity. I even brought in a MRE that was given to us as part of a food drive. I thought it might make a great lesson on taking our freedoms for granted. Know what I mean? : "I'm just toooo tired to cook, lets call out for pizza!" Meanwhile, a soldier may be in a cold wet ditch in the rain eating that MRE while fighting to keep our "lets be lazy and order pizza " butt's free! I couldn't tell you what happened to that MRE. DL said it was a great idea!I gave it to him.Never saw it again. Too many oppertunities keep getting wasted. Like I said, I think the first and foremost thing to do is break up a den of 24 boys. It's not fair to the boys or the DL. And you know, having an extra set or 3 of objectionable heads should help the program, not hurt it. I'm not becoming a Webelos Leader next year out of competition, spite or any undermining reasons, I'm doing it because I want to. I really enjoy working with the boys,and I know I don't have to tell you the rewards! I think the boys need it and the pack - without a doubt - needs it. Right now, as much as I hate to say it.... den meetings are just an extension of going to school. The boys sit in chairs and listen to the DL talk and talk and talk. And that is where this post originally came from. I want to do more than lecture and preach to these boys. I want to DO stuff. I want to wipe the glaze off thier eyes and get them pumped up and excited. Sure, there will be some talking and lecturing, but I plan to follow it with doing too. Right now, it's just ...well...boring the tears out of the boys. And so far, the pack campouts are just about the same. Now I do want to point out one more thing: Used to be that the committee was the leadership. Yeah, they knew that wasn't the right way to run it, but could not get people to do it. Nobody stepped up or cared to help. This year, we have a great new ( and some old) praents really step up and help out. We finally have a completely seperate and fully staffed committee seperate from our leadership.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Atually, I completely agree with you. There is am implied, and sometimes spoken conversation that if the younger guy follows through with the older guy's plan, then the younger guy will find acceptance, friendship and "coolness" alot faster by going along with the plan. Considereing that the older boys are leadership and "supposed" to be more mature , as well as experienced in the acceptable behaviors of the troop - then they should be held to higher accountability. Now, as far as calling the cops, pressing charges or even seeing what a DA will do, where do you stop? Simple childhood fighting? Teasing? Larceny of the last cookie in the cookie jar? Name calling? This was NOT hazing! It was a prank. A stupid tactless and completely gone too far prank, but that is all. A prank that was totally stupid and senseless. But we are talking about teenagers afterall, not parents, leaders, or even civil judges. Just young boys. Matter of fact, our laws have already made the dertimination that these boys cannot be counted on to make reasonable and sound juydgement on a constant basis - thats why legal ages for things are 18, 19, and 21. You can't vote, you can't drink, you can't buy a handgun, or join the military because legally, you are not recognized as being able to make solid decisions. The boys who came up with this scheme probably are guilty of what I was many mnay times as a youth: Not following through with considering the consequences or realinzing the total outcome. Those boys ( in their minds) PROBABLY saw a kid take a sip, make a face and spit out the urine. Then maybe get mad, but later in the week , share in the laugh and join the cycle by joining in on the next "victem" Those older boys probably didn't totally think their actions out. Guilty as charged too many times myself. Hind sight is a Godsend...unfortuneatly, it only happens after the fact, not before. Remember, these boys are not you , nor are they me. They do not have the maturity that you and I have ( and that is still argueable too! ) To kick them out will only show that we are not willing to bother trying to teach, it will only show that we have zero tolerance and no patience. Following that line of thought, why not go ahead fail a kid the first time he doesn't know an answer in school? I'd definantly punish the older boys. Maybe extra duties, extra site clan up/ garbage duty. Not sure what the correct term is. I wouldn't delay any BOR or EBOR or any other boards. I would continue as normal in that respect, but point out the incident in question as a reason as to why ADVANCEMENT was delayed or postponed.

So, what hat do you wear? I'm not big on hats myself. At least not right now. Maybe about 6 years ago, I wore them all the time and everywhere. As a Cub Scout Leader, I know I can wear the brimmed leader hat, the campaign hat, or the hat of whatever rank the Cubs were . Again, hats are not my big thing right now, but I suppose I would wear the brimmed hat, if I wore any. So........what hat would you wear? Oh yeah, I'm not asking which hat SHOULD I wear because I have no clue. I know. Just trying to see who ( of you ) wears what , IF you wear one. You know...your preference.

Personally, I like the 100 year patch on the uniform, BUT I am not going to cry or get upset if BSA said it was temporary and had to be taken off. It's a cool patch, just not cool enough to have a fit over.

Info, WEll, I don't want to be one to say that my pack is or isn't missing something. Honestly, I do believe the biggest issue I may be seeing, or that my pack is having may not be so much a "pack" issue, but rather, a "den" issue. And in all honesty, it may just be me and not the pack or den. Well here goes: We have between 21 and 24 boys in our Bear den each week. That's alot. Matter of fact, theentire Bear "population" exists in 1 den, unlike the other dens which may number 2,3 or 4 different dens per rank. From what I can tell, the leader of this den has been a leader since theu were Tigers. Now here is the thing: I think he was the ONLY leader because nobody else stepped up to be an additional leader. This guy is a carpenter, and a home builder..so he's handy with wood and building projects. He probably has the knowledge to tie at least 30 different kind of knots in his head. He's an all around outdoorsy type. So what do I think the biggest problem is? Too many kids. Too much paper work concerning advancement, pins/beltloops, which scout has paid for what event and/or dues. Who owes monety for this or that. Some of our Bears reached trhe Bear rank months ago, other still have not. Sure, each boy has to advance at his own rate, but my son and 3 others for example have earned Bear, gold arrow point and two silvers. Maybe with a smaller class, the divide would be less so. Then, I guess if you are the only one "in charge" ( for lack of better term) then maybe over time, you get a kinda tunnel vision of sorts as to how to run a den. Me, I like talking to the boys. And trust me when I say I can talk alot! LOL! But there is a difference between talking, lecturing, and teaching. I like physical activity too. I suppose I could talk about tents, but it would make more sense to get the boys outside and let them set them up. I like the idea of an occasional field trip too. Inmy area, the CO is within 30 minutes of at least 12 historical sites: Civil war, revolutionary war, WWII, plus many other historical ( and youth friendly) sites. We have state parks out the wazoo, yet ( in my two years) have yet to utilize any of them. At our pack campout, the den leader wants to hold a whittling chip session, which in itself isn't so bad...except.... not one parent has heard about it, beenasked about it, or knows about it . I just found out last night. Now, I could be wrong, but sitting 21 or 24 boys down and just start teaching them to use a knife just doesn't sound too cool to me. And let me emphasis, we are talking pocket knives too, not plastic trainers or butter knives. Real deal , "somebody is gonna have an accident" knives. Now, again, I could be wrong, but I can see sitting 5 or 6 kids down at a time and teaching whittling chip. But not 24 in one day. So, I don't want to say our program is broken wrong. Partialy due to me not having years of experience, but I know something isn't quite right. So far, I'm guessing the den size is a major contributing factor. Also lack of secondary or outside opinion from others allows one prson's ideas to go stale.

Yeah, I agree with Beavah on that one: Tell the man that since he is not the custoduial parent, and ( based on his long absense) probably doesn't have visitation rights.. that it is the troops policy to require a BC on all adults who wish to attend. His response may tell you more than the BC. Bring it up at the next leadership/ committee meeting. Then make it a policy.

Yeah, I agree with Beavah on that one: Tell the man that since he is not the custoduial parent, and ( based on his long absense) probably doesn't have visitation rights.. that it is the troops policy to require a Bc on all adults who wish to attend. Then make it a policy.

This may be the wrong forum, but figured it was more about how BSA as conducting this particular 100 year program than about the patch itself or any connection to advancement. The 100 year patch/ Year of Celebration patch: http://www.capefearcouncilbsa.org/images/stories/pdfs/Council%20Plans%20for%20100th%20Anniversary%20Celebration.pdf So, how exactly is BSA counting the requirements for this? I mean, specifically, this patch is based on the calendar year of 2010, but that calendar year is split in half at June 1st by two seperate fiscal scout years, as well as rank advancement for Cub scouts and possibly rank for Boy scouts. So you have Cub Scouts who may have started working on thjose requirements as Tigers, woilves or Bears who will become Wolves, Bears , and Webelos on june 1st . Well, they may not become that rank until September depemnding on your pack... buyt it still splits the "Patch year" with two different "Scout years" / That makes sensre to anybody? Usually, stuff you work on at one rank does not carry over to the next rank. IE: Anything my son has done so far as a Bear will not cout for anything in his WEbelos rank. But since the 2010 year is disected by the scout year, will there be an exception for the 100 year /Year of celebration patch? Or does it mean any CUB scouts who ( up til now) completed any requirements ..up to 4 of them..have to start all over again after June 1st as it is a new rank year? In case you are wondering, we are not making it a DEFCOM-5 priority or anything like that, but our pack has worked on and completes a few already. Hoestly, we are more oriented to the projects than we are the patch.. but some of us started wondering.

Let the non-custodial parent fill out an application, send it to BSA, and let then do the background check that they say ( on the application) they will do. You could even mention that there were some concerns based on Custodial parent informing pack. THat gives BSA a heads up to do a thorough check, but absolves you of actually accussing anybody of anything. Now, something else to consider: What Drugs? What kind of abuse? Yeah, that might sound stupid at first, and you might be tempted to say: "Does it matter?" And I would say: "Yes, it does matter!" Why? Because abuse and using "drugs" are SOMETIMES matters of interpretation. A non drinking person may think that anybody who drinks even 2 beers as a person with a drinking problem. Or even an alcoholic. Suppose you or one of your kids takes meds for AHDH or something similar. The "anti-drug" patrol may call that a drug problem. Think of schols who suspend a x child for mouthwash as part of a zero tolerance policy. Point being, some people go to extremes when talking about certain things EVEN if every other aspect of their personality or character seems normal. Just ask my uncle who thinks that smoking just one jouint isn't a big deal and actually helps prevent glaucoma. To him, there is no queation at all that marijuanna is not in any way, shape or form any kind of drug. So, let the adult fill an app, pay the fee and let BSA do a background check. If it comes back okay, you do not have to make that person a CM or SM.

Oh, It could totally be the way I'm trying to explain wnat I mean. I understand trhat what I'm thinking, what I type, what you read , and what you understand are 4 different things. Now, I realize, and have said that using "methods" may not been the best idea. In the form I was using it, I was implying the completely generic duictionary definition of te word....not BSA's version of it. My biggest point is/was/ and will continue to be: Why spend a weekenf d in the woods doing what we already do at all the den meetings? Why not mix it up, change it around and make it interesting and exciting. Now, I meamn this both in the sense of repetition and same kind of menu ( if that makes sense). Why not do something totally different, un-heard of ( to these guys) and exciting? As for burping, no, I'm not stuck on that particular idea. it could be a joke instead or even a talent display where each kid shows off whatever talent he has such as juggling, handstand, or even something rediculous such as drinking milk and squirting it out their eye. Whatebver it takes for a kid to stand up in front of a crowd, yet forget to be nervouse or scared. By doing something fun and different, he might forget to be nervous as the kid who reads off a paper at 10 octaves below human hearing. The Reference to Wood Badge was that a guy who was just about finished with Wood Badge ( maybe 1 ticket from finishing... does that sound right?) was telling uis stuffto think about when working with Cub Scouts at campouts, and such. Incidentally, I was reading a Boy's Life magazine today while at the dentist for my son. They metioned something about having a "Blind Mine Field Obstacle Course" during COPE training. WEll, about the time I started reading it, it was time to go, so I didn't finish. Nope, have no idea what COPE is, but I did read that one boy verbally guides a another blindfolded boy through a "Mine Field" obstacle course. So, my point was, lets teach them regular stuff such as team work, good sportsmanship, and such , but lets just do it in a new or fresh way every once in a while. Not the same old blah blah blah.

ScoutNut, I hope that didn't/ doesn't come out sounding like I'm mad or angry. I'm not. Just stating my views and intentions behind what I proposed.

Well, I always thought of corporal punishment as spanking, whipping or slapping. Wikipedia defines it as: "Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to deter attitudes or behaviour deemed unacceptable. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings" So, going by that, I would say corporal punishment would be to make them carry as many chairs as possible until it hurt or they got blisters. In school, ..well it was the old wooden paddle . Maybe it had holes drilled in it and it whistled as it approached your butt ( not that I would know! LOL!) I did have a teacher in 3rd grade who made a few of us "overly talkatibve / attention rexled students jump up amnd down for like.... 20 minutes. She didn't let us stop until we were crying because of cramps or stomach pain. THAT WAS CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. I like your solution. Next den meeting, announce that the two offendes will put away "X" number of chairs all by themselves.... In front of everybody.