Scoutfish

Heres my experience with it: Last year, our pack's committee was it's leadership!Actually - vice versa _ The leadership was the committee. The CM was The CC. A DL was the treasurer. The ACM was the secretary. DL's made up the entire committee. Things seemed to run pretty good too. But it was also my first year as a scout parent who also happened to be very active with my son and helping the pack out when and where ever needed. My first year.. I had no idea about how things sghould be, how things are "supposed" to be. This year a bunch of great new to scouting parents , and experienced with scouting parents stepped up and we now have a brand new and complete Comittee. At least 15 to 20 people are on the comittee who have absolutely nothing to do with pack leadership positions. We have people who chair fund raising, publicity, events, B&G, equipment, advancement , etc. Some DL's and ADL's work with committees to assit with manpower, but we are not necessarrily officail committee members. How is it working? Hard to say: The CM hasn't been seens pulling out her hair lately. The ACM hasn't been spotted banging his head on the broom closet door this year, and Den Leaders stopped cowering in the corners - sucking their thumbs and crying. But on the opposite side... I have noticed DLs who are not used to being questioned about what they do. Some DL's have a "Who are you to question my authority?" attitude when it comes to spending pack money or making solo decisions on stuff that requires the comittee and leadership to vote on. And we have some "But that's how we always did it before"(ists) every now and then! Basically, it seems like it's working, but we are experiencing growing pains as well as "Power" conflicts. Oh yeah, we are a pack of about 120 Cub Scouts that also happened to be a pack of 70ish Cub Scouts last year. So double on the growing pains!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I saw a qouted rule/regulation/ policy about this once, but wondered where I saw it, Flipping through my books, I could not find it. It started getting on my nerves! LOL! Then just a few minutes ago, I stumbled across it. I am qouting Old Grey Eagle who was qouting: ""Advancement and Recognition Policies and Procedures" So while I cannot specifically qoute or reference an exact source, I think there is no actual requirement , just a really really big "want". BSA Publication 33088, 2010 Printing, it says this on page 27 regarding Boards of Review and the uniform "The Scout should be neat in his appearance; however, a uniform is not required. Local boards of review may not make up their own rules about wearing a uniform." Yep, this was ( as I read it) specifically about a BOR. It may be the same policy organazation wide or may have just been specifically to the BOR. Searches through Google, MSN and BSA ( scouting.org) did not turn up any results other than the basic line which is: "Wearing the Uniform In general, every Cub Scout should wear his uniform to all Cub Scouting activities, including den and pack meetings, unit outings, and any activities done with members of the den or pack. When playing sports, going to camp, or participating in other physical activities, a pack may opt to have the Cub Scouts wear an alternate uniform, such as an activity shirt. Pack leaders should provide advance notice of any occasion when the boys should wear anything other than the complete uniform." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Uniform/Parents.aspx And after reading the paragraphs preceding and following the above ones... it is my OPINION that in plain language, BSA is saying: "You really ought to wear a uniform, and if you do, wear it right. But if you don't wear it, we are not gonna ingore you or kick you out because even though the uniform is a source of pride, BSA's purpose, intentions, and goals are bigger than just a uniform." Again, just my uniformed opinion! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I disagree! it SHOULD be required or not, but depending which chapter of which book of policy or guidlines that you happen to be looking at.. BSA implies that uniforms are indeed required, it's just that you can't require them or act on anybody who does not have them! LOL!

I think respect is something that should be expected to be given to a person ina position of leadership. By being in that position, you must have done something to have earned respect. BUT... that respect can easily be lost and thrown away too. Seen it at my own comapny when somebody is a great worker, has pride in their work and then gets promoted. Somehow, their heads swell up, arrogance starts growing in their attitude, and before you know it, you have a "I'm too important to work, and how dare you question me " attitude! 1)Complete and Total lack of respect. Why not tell/show them what should be done and give them a chance. At the very worst, say you are dissapointed in the conditon of the equipment. But I think another adult should ask the adult when and where did he get that decision making authority? 2) Lack of respect. The answer itself isn't so important as why. And the why should be explained at that time, then in turn, the SPL reports back to the PLC as to why. But I'm also under the understanding that "That kind of decision: is actually the PLC's to make. Yes? No? 3) I'm divided. Youth feeling responce is inadequate is probably every other time. No biggie there. But the reason why should be expalined to show particular youth why and also for future expectations. Not really disrespectful, but lack of tact. 4)Lack of respect, full of hipocracy. Leader expectations are laid out in the books. Leader expectations are not expected less than youth. Not to mention it sends an arrogant " The rules don't apply to me" message. 5)Not only lack of respect to youth, but lack of respect to program, and to ones own position. "It's so because I said so, even though I can't prove it!" Hey, lets just tell all the scouts do do the same! I agree if it can't be proven at some point in a reasonable time, it isn't true! Sounds more like a power issue than any rules! 6)Respect not given, but neather was normal human understanding. I'd take that adult to task the first time he wasn't in a good mood no matter the reason,. First time he mumbles, shows attitude or has less than perfect attitude, I'd tell him that his attitude won't fly and he better straighten up or hit the highway. Then explain the whole goose/ gander thing. No, I wouldn't make him leave, but maybe with the situation reversed, he might have a better understanding...especially since he is the "mature adult" and not the youth who is supposed to be learning still. Again, certain offices have a certain amout of respect that sorta just goes with that position. But it has to be maintained and upheld.

"The "advisor" was not even on the trip and he is putting his two cents in." WEre you there? I wasn't and neither was anybody in this forum, so I guess I'll raise my hand to "guilty as charged" . Anything we say will be our "2 cents in" based on second hand knowledge. "I disapprove of the adults yelling at him, but I am not going to ask them to apologize to him. " I might not ask for an apology, but I'd sure say something to them. And this is another thing to look at: If yelling at scouts is considered reasonable and within the norm...again,I would leave! The troop you may love may be evolving to one that you don't.

Speaking of Activity Badges.... When using AB Counsilers, do they sign of a check list that I in turn use to sign of requiremnts, do they counsil in front of me and the ADL and I sign based on that or do I print up some sort of check off sheet for the counsilers to check off that I transfer to achievements. Or do the counsilers check of the pages in the book and I check off on the den advancement sheet based on the books? Did that make sense to you?

I do not mean to sound like I'm saying you should just pack your bags because its all your fault. That is not what I meant, But what I am seeing is this: You are declairing the advisor and enemy. This "enemy" isin a position where he seems to have power and sway over everybody and they are too scared to stand against him. Why will that change any time soon? No matter what you say, he will still intimidate the other adults. As far as you son, I was simply saying he is guilty of being a teenager. been there done that myself. As far as the ASM/friend.. I is entirely possible that as a friend, he has kinda helped your son out many times as a family friend and maybe even bestowed a little favortism on him? Maybe the enemy sees that and that is the problem there? No, it still isn't right to take it out on your son, but that could be the case? Maybe the friend is tired of helping out . Granted, that's his fault for doing it so long to begin with.( If that's the case!) Resentment isn't always instantaneous. Sometimes it simmers. To go directly opposite of what the SM said sounds more like a misunderstanding. Was this conversation by cell phone or face to face? Static or maybe mis hearing one single word could have the opposite effect. Anyways, it seems that if that many people could possibly be against your son, I'd might go ahead and leave. If these folks are truely acting this way- right or wrongly - this troop will crash and burn before your youngest has a chance to go to EBOR.

Yeah, I know it's different with Webelos than Bears as far as signoffs go, I meant I'm using this as a lesson next year as far as communication goes. Ecept religion, I think that one should be handled by mom and dad. I'll just have to take their word on that one as that could potentialy be a hornets nest! I'm not trying to railroad the DL, but he doesn't always tell us what he plans. Rather he might ask us to do something right when he wants it done...without any prior warning or notice. Sometimes, he tells us that wewill be working on "X" next week, but when the meeting night comes, he "decided" that we should do something else instead. Now, I still takesome responcibility as I could have called on Weds to see if everything was still a go, But he could have caled too since he ws the one who changed his mind. You know, if it was jusyt me, I'd look closely at myself, but when 2 ADLs and 2 unofficial ADLs are all in the same situation...it can't be all our fault. Yeah,I have the Webelos Leader Guide book, I already have Webelos Handbook and Cub Scout Leader Book. You ever read the post "How bad is this bad idea? That started due to the CSL book. I was planning on getting the leaders How To activity book, but seems like I have found a ton of that same stuff online and can print out specific activitiy plans as needed. That and I head that some programs may change?

One thing really concerns me: "as I said before, the ASM was one of my husband's best friends till this happened" Why? At some point, aren;'t you prepared for a situation where the outcome may not favor your child? Loss of friendship because it didn't go your childs way seems extreme..especially when the final outcome does not solely belong to the ASM. Now, I know there are two sides to every story, and they usually do not sound even close to being the same. But when your some made the original comment about a thorough cleaning being stupid, he was trying to justify and reason himself out of doing a duty. And I know he did not "mean" to attack anybody, but in essence, saying that "....that washing pots on a camping trip to the point of sterilization was stupid because they were just going to be washed again at home.: is in essence calling the leadership stupid for requiring it. Simply put, he questioned the leaderships intelligence. No, I'm sure that's not what he intended, but that is what happened. I was a kid not so long ago...well maybe it was long ago, but I remember it well. I have no doubt your son did not mean that comment with the severity it has strangely been taken with. But like Beavah said...There is a certain amout of pride that has to be eaten in your son's position. The position deserves respect even if your opinion of the individual says not. And as a former kid...yes, it's true... I know that I did not always tell my parents things verbatum. Of course everybody over reacted to my actions or comments. Of course the made a mountian out of a mole hill. It was never my fault! The world was out to get me! Yep, typical teenager mentality. The boy owes an apology . Now having said that, I think somebody does need to reel in the "advisor". Wether he is the COR or not, he should not be having direct dealings with your son. He should work throughy our committe and they should advise te SM and ASM, who should advise the PLC. But If the mentality is that he is "the enemy" It would probably be best served to leave the troop as even if "the enemy" makes a perfect descision or observation about your son one day, you will automatically question it regardless of it's validity ...solely because of who made it. You may not like the guy, but declaring him the enemy will only contimue to bring heartache and trouble to your scouting experience.

In my eyes: NO! The Tiger post seemedto be more about giving them the rank just so they all could have it. Sure......everybody argued the merits of wether they earned it based on BSA plan, but the main thing was wether it shoudl be given so everybody would make it. In my post, I was questioning at which point it would be the childs fault versus the leaderships fault if the child actually tried and did his best but didn't quite make it due to leadership selling the kid short. Now, having read all the replies, I am reminded that even if we as leaders didn't purposely hold each kids hand the entire time... parents should/could have stepped in and said " hey, we need to do some work here!" And yeah, I admit that I forgot about family time being a veruy important and integral part of the program. I guess I'm so involved with my son, I failed to recognize that others may not be so with their kids. Anyways, I asked a question, got great answers that made me see stuff in a different light. For that I am glad. And honestly, I'm glad I asked because it doesgive me an insight for next year on a personal level that I would noy have had just from reading in the Tiger Post. As for being the same...well, that could be personal interpretation on our part, but I see what could be taken as the same end result, but due to different reasons as to why. Ummmm....same effect , but from a different cause and for a different reason. So my answer is no,not the exact same thing, but surely in the same catagory type.

("No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs" etc etc) So wouldn't you agree that by government not being able to charter a BSA unit.. then people who would be in that unit are not being treated equally BECAUSE OF their religion are - in fact having their equal protection violated? They are being discriminated against because they believe a higher form exists. Merlyn, you don't have to answer. Actually, it doesn't matter. The way that amendment is worded, the government is in a catch 22 situation when any sort of personal rights are based on belief( belief meaning belief in or against religion). The government sides with you...My rights are violated. The government sides with me, your rights are violted. The government ignores both of us, then both our rights are violated....which ironically, affords us both equal treatment and protection ( or lack of) in the process! That would almost be funny if it wasn't so sad! That particular amendment has to choose one violation over another violation.

No, we have always had 1 bear den, but have split them into two groups to accomplish things. We agreed a while back that come the next ( Webelos) year, we HAVE to split them, but did not want to do it mid year as this would probably be worse than having 24 in the den

Yeah, that does present another way of looking at it: We might have done a less than perfect job, but then again, we were working under less that perfect conditions. Well, I surely hope it doesn't come down to that many next year. Actually, I have already made up plans and gathered ideas for next year to present at our next leaders meeting for running my Webelos den. We ARE splitting into AT LEAST 2 dens if not more next year. THis year is something I need to keep in the back of my mind.

I do not mean to imply that we give them the badge just becase we screwed up. I mean, if they tried, participated,and did their best ( as the requiremenst say) and the only reason they haven't done more is because of us, not them....then I'm starting to think they have earned it, BASED UPON the books' definition of meeting the requiremnt. Perosnally, I do not advocate giving anything out of pity or just for the sake of keeping all boys on an even keel. I feel hard work should be rewarded and the lack of - not rewarded ( although not punished). But IF the only treason those boys didn't reach rank was due to our insuffiencies AND they tried AND participated AND did thier best... I feel they met the requirements as stated. Now, please understand I am not talking about any and all Cub Scouts den across America in a blanket statement. I am refering specifically to my den that I am ADL to. I do have some inside knowledge ( it would take 20 pages just to bring everybody up to speed) that makes me question wether we truely gave the boys the oppertunity to fully earn the rank at their own pace without indirect interfearance from us. That make sense? If I know that the program we ( in this 1 den)delivered was not as god as it could have been, and it was our fault... then can we hold the boys or their families responcible?

The 1st Amendment of the United States Constituitin "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Merlyn, this is for you. Okay, so reading the above , please point out where - by public schools chartering BSA units- the governemnt has broken any laws. By allowing a school to charter a BSA unit, please show proof of the government establishing a religion on the people of the United States. By allowing a school to charter a BSA unit, show me where the government is (A) respecting an establishment of religion and (B) which religion it is. And please, in the name of reading comprehension, do not give me your opinions of religion, your neighbors opinion, what any biased organazation ( for or agaisnt BSA ) or what SCOTUS thinks. A I am specifically asking you to point out where in the 1st Amendment , that it is stated that government cannot have anything to do with religion other than (as said)_ establishing or respecting any one religion. But since it's brought up, I can show you why the government cannot discriminate agaisnt religion: "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble," So that means ( as written) I can practice my religion publicly, gather with other like minded floks and practice it. No, the government cannot start a religiojn of officially designate one as superior, but it can't stop mine or hold back service to it either. Now, what religion is BSA endorsing? Which one? Where does the government actually endorse or respect THAT religion on the public of the United States? It doesn't. But it does allow citizens of the United States to peacefully meet and assemble under that religion. But the moment that the government says : "No,. we cannot allow you to meet, and will not provide equal services to you because you have religion" Then the government is breaking the law and going agaisnt our ( mine and yours) 1st Amendment and Constitutional rights

Merl, at one point, you aked me - when I said I had no problem with schols chartering a BSA unit - if I would feel the same way about the school chartering an AA unit. I said,not, I did NOT have any issue or problem with it. Then you said but AA woulld be youth led, not school. But YOU did not ask me about a youth led group, you asked about a school chartered group..to which I still have no issue. So by changing around (and assuming what you thought I might mean) you also made a "strawman attack". The part concerning the WoO and Guy Fawkes is a direct insult by comparing me to a terrorist attck on others due to different beliefs in religion. Funny thing about that: I'm not trying to stop your group, but you are trying to stop and prevent mine. I have stated that you should have your group, and you can even hold meetings right beside my group. You on the other hand, are trying to "blow up" my group! Much like Guy Fawkes! So, who is the guy Fawkes amongst us indeed? See, the thing is this: A school that charters a group because it fills a PUBLICLY WANTED void : I'm cool with that. But as soon as the school made students or the public sign up,regardless of interest.... I'm not cool with that. So if students want to sign up for AA, BSA, FCA, or even G&L ( I guess that's what it is) than have at it...as long as the membership is NOT forced or mandatory as these clubs are all based on individual beliefs. Since I pay taxes and my child is an extension of me... Since you pay taxes, and your child(ren) are an extension of you, I do not have a problem with my school chartering both an AA club and a BSA unit . And you can specifically state intricate details, but in the real world, as you know too well,that even if a school did charter a BSA unit, it would have no more connection to the government than I do as the finacial backbone of the government. Yes, I specifically mean that the direction and running of the program would not go any further than whatever volunteers at that particular school decided to step up. There wouldn't be any control, direction or asstance given from the county BoE or even the state. And as far as federal involvement of that units program? THat's just laugable. There would be no involvement. So on paper work, it might be construed ( if you make the effort) that the government runs a BSA unit, but in all reality,it would be a few parents and volunteers at the schol who were interested, and only did it in the school name in order to get access to the the school building to have a place to hold those meetings. And since that building is paid for by those volunteers tax dollars as well as the students who would join up....I cannot see where you can stop them. Likewise, I belive in the same rights for your AA club. If you personally as tax payer want to have AA meetings at the school house...have at it! If some teachers are part of AA and want to start a club at school...Why not? Your taxes as well as all memebsr pay for that building too. AS long as it's there..use it! Buy just like BSA..don't make membership mandatory, and everything is ok!

I really like the bulliten board at school idea. As is, we have one inside the Co's halways, but you know what that means: The people who see it already do it. It's mostly to show the membership of the CO ewhat we do. Was it a problem or issue to have a board at a scholl? I mean, now days, everybody takes every little thing as an admission of endorsement or implied support. Didn't know if the school my have an issue with the public thinking that the school might be pushing for BSA . But other than that, that's awesome! Cograts! I love a success story!

Don't think I'm just placing blame either.... I'm mad at myself too. My son has earned his Bear badge as well as gold Arrow Points and two silver Arrow Points. Seems to me that if all the leadership's kids have rank, plus ...whatever else they have earned..then the other boys should have at least rank. Sure not always all, but more than what we have.

Simply stated: What if the scouts do everything we ask them to, but WE ( the leadership) didn't deliver it right or correctly or in a timely fashion?

Scoutnut, ell,I felt it was a little different by implying "What if it was the leaders who didn't do their best , and as a result, the boys didn't earn a rank yet because of that." You know what I mean? The boys were working at it, doing everything they were asked, but due to the Dl having too much on his plate, the program wasn't delivered as it should be. I have nothing agaisnt the whittling chip( helped my son earn it) But instead of just loking for filler activities to keep them busy til the end of the year...why not knock out any unfinished acheivement items - that way we can finish the ENTIRE achievement and cross it off. Snow_White, Unfortunatly, I think the only communivation is the DL asking parents to make sure stuff gets done...but not specifically telling each scout what or how much -IE: Scout Billy needs to finish acheivement ##/item #F ( Participate in a flag ceremony) to get credit for achievement #3 to be complete. Well, why not have our den participate in the next flag ceremony at eithe a den or pack meeting? Billy sure can't do that ay home , now can he? Well, I suppose the book means with your den - or pack at the very least. Now if cub Billy ( and possibly a few others)need that item to complete rank.....why are we looking at whittling chip instead of those unfinished requirements? Like I said, I think it's just due to the overload of just having too many boys and all the paperwork that goes with it, not by a willfull or concious slacking off by anybody. Sometimes, with that many boys, stuff takes twice as long. So in the end, did we short change the boys and are they lacking Bear rank because of it? And in that specific case ..... If the boys showed up, did the work and tried their very best - then don't we owe them that rank? I mean, if the leadership is what prevented a boy from earning the badge...that's our fault, not the boy's!

I stand corrected: At one of our pack meetings, we replace the normal pack meeting witha formal indoor Arrow of Light ceremony complete with an OA indian as speaker and presenter to the Webelos. After the AoL Award ceremony, we also have the Webelos crossover ceremony , to which , at the point they cross over, to the new troop, they recive a neckerchief and hat. Later, at our pack family campout, we have graduation for the rest of the cub scouts as well as have another outdoors and less formal crosover ceremony for the Webelos. This time, they just cross over - they do not get greeted by their new troop or recieve a neckerchief or hat or anything else. Basically, it's the last time they participate with the pack/ friends/ family as a Webelos rank cub scout. We still have some OA indians show up and do stuff, but it's stuff that wasn't appropriate to do inside the CO's building. You know fire and stuff. This year we have the honor of having both active military and retired vets to assist us/ demonstrate to us... a flag retirement ceremony.

You ever read, see or hear something, form an opinion on it, then later on down the road, see an entirely different side to it? Here's the situation: Our current Bear Den has from 21 to 24 boys in it depending on how many show up at each meeting night. For the most part, it's 24. As of right now, my son, the DL's son, another ADL's son and maybe 1 or 2 other boy's have their Bear badge. My son has earned 1 gold and 2 silver arrow points. In case your wondering.... I was out for a month and a half recovering from surgery, so we spent every day of winter break together. Why the others don't...I don't honestly know. Those boys have showed up, have participated as much as anybody, and are paid up on dues( not that that should matter with our hardship policies). Now, I realize that not every boy follows through at home. I also know that some parents do not give a damn about any of it as soon as they leave the den/ pack meeting.( Oh do I ever know about that!) But something caught my eye in my son's Cub Scout Bear Handbook ( #33451): Page 7 - last paragraph: " DO YOUR BEST When has a boy completed an objective or achievement? When he , in your opinion as Akela, has completed the skill to the best of his ability. In Cub Scouting, boys are judged against their own standard, not against other boys. " Honestly, I went with the whole "do your best" arguement. But having had something on my mind the last few days...I see it in a whole new light: What if the boys did their best, and the best was the very best they could do - due to OUR ( as leaders and/ or parents) limitations? What if the only reason they didn't do better was because of our influence or actions instead of their own ? With a den of 24 boys, a ton of paperwork -advancement, attendance, acttivity , and dues paperwork eating up sooooo much times, as well as other responcibities as a leader in general distracting you... couldn't the boys best been "less bested" by us? Now another thought: Our pack pretty much takes the summer off. We have at least 1 fun day each month in June, July,and August, but that's about it. And most of the dens reach rank by B&G or Crossover in late April. So right now, our program isn't officially over, but nothing like it was during the pre B&G season. Bluntly: We have time on our hands, and it seems like we are wasting it. I do not want to sound like I am calling anybody out, but what about the boys who haven't reached rank yet? Why is there a plan to teach whittling chip to 19 boys when only a handfull have rank? Does any of this make sense to anybody? What I'm saying , that is? I do not for one second mean to imply we give them rank just because they showed up.....but if they tried, and DID THIER BEST..but did it only as much as we allowed them to..don't we at least owe them the time if not the Bear badge already? I think I'm starting to get mad over this! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Double post!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

You betcha...Good luck indeed! Thinking about doing it it myself.....but wondering if I'd be ( and the pack too) better served if I actually get a year of experience as a Den Leader first before taking wood Badge. Might just spread myself too thin or possibly face burnout by doing too much the first year. But anyways...GOOD LUCK indeed. Keep everybody posted n it as you do it!

Beautiful words Mr.Boyce! Myself, I have my beliefs. I cannot clearly state that i belong to any one organized religion as I feel pretty much all the ones I have experienced have put too much politics into salvation. As a father, I want my son to truely believe his beliefs instead of just believeing because I did. That make sense/ And as a person,I want him to learn about all religions. Not so he can necessarily have a bigger list to choose from, but to learn about them. I mean truley learn. For example, Pagans are "known" to be devil worshipers, yet they actually do not recognize or believe a devil exists. Islamics are hated and loathed due to the Radicals, yet nobody seems to know that true Islam is a peaceful religion that detests hatred and violence. Some Christians avow to never work on Sunday, because i6t is the Sabbath, yet are entirelu clueless to the fact that the Sabbath is actually on Saturday, but "back room" dealings by Constantine created Sunday as a day of worship. Some are aware, but "Well, we've done it this way soo long.... don't see no reason to stop." Then still, people think BC and AD are the literal initials for before Christ and After Death. Whoops! Somebody is missing about 33 years somewhere in there! In school, I grew up around soe of the most racist, sexist, bigotted people on the face of this earth. Makes me wonder how it didn't rub off on me sometimes. The problem is..peopel think that LEARNING about other cultures and religions is akin to being taught to conform to that culture or religion. I think all religions as well as all the different levels of ateism as well as Diestism ( that a word?) should be taught as part of civics, social studies and world history. In todays global society, we have too!