Scoutfish

It seems our biggest problem is this: At our last campout, a few parents decided they were going to bed and didn't think nothing of leaving their kids sitting around the campfire....alone.....unattended! Our CM almost started to tell them to leave. This year, we specifically addressed that Leaders watched over the scouts ( with help) during den activities, but parents were completely responcible during free and down time. This year, if we find kids around the fire unattended by parents or a leader who is doing some sort of activity...they will be asked to leave.

I completely agree Eagle92. Supposing a kid fails Kindergarten, he could still be with the same age group of boys in the Tiger dens. Basement, that's the issue isn't it: Finishing a grade versus starting the next vs wether esach pack has a summer program or not. Here's one for everybody: You have a kid who advances in school really fast. Maybe he's 6 years old, but ends up being the next prodegy or Einstien. Supposing he'd even care about Cub Scouts instead of making robots and solving advanced chemical equations...could he be a Cub rank based on grade instead of age? Could a 6 or 7 year old be a Webelos Scout? Not that I'd ever expect it to happen , just wondering.

Yeah NJ, Same here. When it comes to religious people, some are the kindest, mosr caring and generally best people. But others are hardheaded, stubborn people who would rather stick their fingers in their ears and sing hymms instead of even possibly considereing that others may have a different point of veiw. No, not talking about agreeing, just recognizing that other views exist. I have know a few athiests too. Prety cool folks. They were outgoing community members too. One of them even buys dinners from a church's annual fundraiser and such on this premis: Even though he did not believe in God, he recognized the good that the church did for folks. I have fiends who are Wiccan, I have a few gay friends, and an athiest as well as many religious friends. So far, I just see them all as friends and leave the otherv stuff to them. Contempt and arrogance are not inclusive to any one group of people!

Basement, you totally misunderstood me: By making arrangements for another parent/ adult to watch my son, I AM being responcible in that my son could go camping without me or his mother being there.I didn't just drop him off. As far as two family members and one being a BSA member, I was only pointing out that my son who is registered and a member of BSA could take his older or younger brother or sister on a family campout and be in compliance with that statement. We have a bunch of single parent cub scouts as well as one cub scout who lives with his grandparents because of his mother and father being deceased. Think it was a car accident, but not sure. His grandparents are pretty much not gonna do the campout thing. That scout came with us last fall. As long as he has his own tent or only tents with other scouts and not other adults...he is okay and withing the rules! Assuming somebody agreed to be responcible for him. Which they did! Speaking of single parents, we have 3 types in our pack: 1: The most common type: Moms and sons. Seems the dads just "weren't ready " to be the "fatherly type" of p[erson yet. 2: Single dads. Rare, but it happens. Mom decided she wanted to "Live her life and party" . : They are actually married, but one parent or the other decided that Scouting and mentoring are "Boy stuff" and moms need not be there. Technically, not really single, but single as far as scouting is concerned. We welcome them every day!

Now you are being dishonest! Us married men all know you have no choice! LOL! It's a "catch 22" situation!

Trekies, Trekkers, trackers , Trickers....whatever! The vast superiority of Star Wars fans is apparent! And I shall indulge you in a few examples: In Star Trek, different species need translators to communicate. But in Star Wars everybody just understands everybody else! In Star Trek people are constantly eating weird cuisine in the mess deck. In Star Wars, nobody actually eats.They do not need to! Star Trek: weird shiny foil bed sheets and covers. Star Wars: Nobody needs to sleep! Star Trek: You have Bones, an anal retentive, OCD pesimistic nut case Dr! Star Wars: Either you are dead or not! No doctors ever except to say you are dead or not! Star Trek: 60's and 70's... phasers that looked like Brauhn razors. Star Wars: Light sabers, laser blasters, AT-AT's and droids with attitude! And it all happened LONG, LONG AGO, really far away...so Star Wars was way ahead of Star Trek! AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST: Star Trek: Pointy ears and green skinned women. Star Wars: Princess Lea in a gold bikini and Senator Amidala in a white catsuit! Yeah, I know you almost cannot bear the shame, but it's okay, not everybody can live up to being Star Wars worthy!

Two members of a family and one is a BSA member. Well, that could be my BSA registered Bear Cub son and his older/younger brother/sister. "Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children." If I cannot go, amd my wife cannot go, and I make arrangements with another adult who will be responcible for my child or act on my behalf ...then I have been responcible for my child by taking care of the situation. I didn't just tell him he could go camping and drop him off without taking his safety into consideration. Family Camping Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply.

Engineer... I'd never tell you that your felings or opinomn is wrong. They are YOUR feelings and opinions. BUT.... I think the circumstances that you might be basing your feelings on can be wrong. So I ask, whci part of scouting suggests, recogmends, or implys tha parenst should push their sons until it becopmes a burden instead of fun? As an engineer, I want to tell you about an old Hag the Horrible comic I saw once. One of the viking warriors employeees .. or whatever you call them, comes over to Hagar and says: " We can't figure out the problem with the wagon."In the background, you see 3 or 4 vikings scratching their head while looking at different parts of the wagon. In the next square, it is a bigger view of the wagon, the emplyees and a horse that is dead as a doornail because of 3 arrows sticking in various parts of its body. STUPID WAGON!!!! So, is it the scouting that does the harm, or the parents who don't understand the program? To answer your question as asked,, I can't give a black and white answer as there are different types of pushing at verious degrees of seriousnes and different situations. To say do parents cause more harm that good by not understanding how scouting works or what the program is meant to do...YES! you betcha. Lots of parents probably ruin Scouting before it ever has a chance to benefit Jr.

When I was 16 years old and just newly recieved my driver's license, my best friend was still 15. He was a boy scout. He might have been a life scout, star, tenderfoot... I have no honest idea.....whatever he was, I don't know. Scouting was not my thing and not on my radar. But my friend loved scouting. Loved camoping out, hanging out with the other scouts doing whatever they did. UNTIL his dad started telling him that if he didn't have Eagle by 16, he wasn't allowed to have and absolutely would not get his driver's license. Well, scouting went from fun to a leverage tool that my freind despised . Now, if his dad had said: "You can get your license, but if you earn Eagle, I'll help chip in for a better car."...well, that might have been an incentive. And when my son joined cub scouts, he pretty much changed his mind 3/4 of teh way through being a W9olf Cub. He deccided he didn't want to do it any more. But I pushed him just a little bit, I told him that I didn't care if he dropped out, but he needed to complete at least 1 full year to get the full effect. Well, he's going to be a Webelos very soon and glad I "talked" him into sticking it out. I almost called it quits witha girlfriend I was dating back in 1993, but My dad had a talk with me. Told me there were certain times and certain things that just needed to be stuck with. He sid sometimes you can't make a big decision in a short time. So he "pushed" me too. I'm glad he did because that girl I was dating who aggravated me soooooo much has been my wife since 1996, anfd we have a beautiful son togethjer and two aggravating dogs! So, I know what you mean about pushing, but pushing is a little different for each person. Rank for the sake of having it is a bad push. Asking your kid to wait a bit longer before making rash or unfounded decision...well....I can understand that! As a leader thouigh, I'd tell those parents that there is a time frame and a purpose to each rank, activity and award that can be earned. I'd tell them as a leader, they should trust that BSA didn't just sit around and figure out the whole program in 5 minutes while drinking a beer , but rather, alot of time, thought and study went into it.

My understanding was that National's database used June first as a change point. Or if you will, a set date for when you advance. Why? Well again, the way I understand it is while some packs run their programs year round, others go by school calendar. But what school? What district? What state? Well, in my area( NC) three connecting counties all have different start end dates for the school year. WEll, I can't see National having a set year date for each district, so they just chose one. Maybe it was with a dart tossed at a calendar or picking a date from a hat. But from what I read, it just "happened" to be June first. Now, our pack runs from Sept to June with it's "oficial program" and just has one or two pack fun days during June, July, and August. So, if a Cub Scout hasn't earned rank yet, we allow him to continue working on it until the start of our new year in Sept. But like mentioned above, this does not count for electives, just rank. Not sure about Webelos, because so far as I have seen, all have met rank and whatnot with a little time to spare before crossover.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

EXACTLY!!!That was my whole point. I just happened to think about it and wondered why. And as far as position change, well. we change that at recharter too....even though it is about 6 months behind! LOL! But no.. there isn't a problem in the pack or any arguing or other issues from it, just my own observation and then just me wondering about it. That's all.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

SMT224... Somewhere between the "Cats are meant to roam and prowl - not be on leashes!" and "Packs of dogs are not natural!" crowd? Or maybe the "The last 400 guns laws didn't stop all the hell bent career criminals so lets make yet another gun law, and see if they listen to THIS one!" group? LOL!

You know, I didn't think about where the Popcorn chair was or any member of the committe . Honestly, I didnt mind reading off the prize list and handing out the prizes, because at that point, it was really about recognizing the Cubs for their efforts. Usually, our Cm does it, but some new law, or maybe her boss decided she had to have a real etate license ( she is not an agent - but I don't know what she does)about a week before the meeting and they just found out the class dates the same afternoon as the pack meeting. Really, all I did was read off a name, say how much they sold in a dollar amount, hand them a prize, shake their hand, tell them "Great job!", and kick them off stage! Another member of out leadership hinted that I was probably specifically asked because it might be something to do with the CM wanting me getting used to speaking in front of a crowd, but that's never been an issue for me anyways! I'm the guy who will wear a pink tutu and pink tights with work boots and flannel shirt in front of everybody for a laugh during a skit if need be! But anyways, I didn't talk about anything to do with the popcorn program or any other info...just a list of who sold what and handed them a prize! Then I stepped down and we discussed much, much important stuff like buying buggle gum...bazooka zooka bubble gum!

Well, I'm not surprised! If you look closely at his shirt, you can clearly see he is one of those antisocial pot stirring disillusioned "Trekies" . You know...a Star Trek fan. Now, had the blogger been a Star Wars fan, who tend to be multi cutural sensitive and of a more moralistic nature, there wouldn't have been a blog issue at all! LOL! YEP! That wcomic was dead on!

look at it this way: I'm the kind of person who..if I was flying across country, will call the airport a week or two ahead of time to find out about security rquirements, tiemto show up, if there are restrictions on my personal belongings or what not instead of waiting til boarding time to find out about security procedures,that I should have ben there 3 hours earlier, or wether or not I can carry the baggage that I have in my hand. That is good stuff to know, and part of my responcibility as a passenger. But once I get on the plane and we take off, I might ask - out of curiosity - how much fuel the plane holds, how long somebody has worked at their job, how many meals they serve per year,how many vacation days do they get or if they have started hating the public in general over time. No, It's not vital info, but just my curiosity kicking in. I'm not freaking out, not analyzing anything or concerned that the air crew hasn't done their job. Nope, just curious! Same as recharter, been through it twice and was wondering why it isn't closer to the June 1st CUB scout year. No, it won't affect me as a leader, won't make kids drop out or cause it to rain. I'm not dying to know.....just curious!

No, I wouldn't specifically adress popcorn money dues, but stuff like what pass acounts mean and where money goes in relationship to scout raised vs pack/troop raised/ concil raised, etc. Things like why your son was elected by the troop to serve in a POr while mine was not ( specifically such why my son does not haave a garanteed right to be on a POR but has to earn it). I read stuff along the lines of : "Why wasn't my son voted to OA? The SM needs to tell OA to let him in!" You know...an explanation of why it doesn't work that way. In the case of popcorn sales, you don't get a garante of earning your rank badge either...even if you sell $4,000.00 in popcorn. Stuff like that. Know what I mean?

I read once that humans are the only creatures that will plant grass, water it, fertalize it, do everything they can to get it to grow green , thick, and lush....just so they can mow it down! LOL! So...What's a Toby tree?

Basement, Wondering when you would show up. Hey, I bear no ill will or harbor any bad feelings. Just pointing out that I might ask a simple question because I am wondering, and you always say I should calm down or I'm overanalyzing. It was just a case of wondering about recharter,. I'm not stressed, freaking out, going nuts or bothered by it...just wondering. I'm trying to learn the why and what ifs,and what not to do's, not just what I do with the boys as a leader..but the whole program. I get what you say about being trained, but I'll bet $10 that nowhere in any rank specific Cub Scout leader training classes, books or programs does it say why recharter and CUB scout year are not within a month of each other much less seperated by about 6 months. Seems like you were having a bad day...that's cool, we all do sometimes. But busting me as an "instant expert" was out of line and un called for. I never felt that way or claimed it...especially since I was ASKING a question ( meaning I wanted to learn something) and not stating my QUESTION as fact to another member. So anyways, no hard feelings, but cut me some slack! I'm trying to learn stuff so I know how to deal with it as it arises....and you are busting on me for trying to learn. I'm a newish to scouting and first year in a leadership position trying to make sure I do a good job and do it correctly. I'm asking for advice and your sentiments appear to be I need to learn. Well, I'm trying to learn, but keep getting stopped by people who tell me I a need to calm down and stop over analyzing. It just doesn't make sense! That just doesn't make sense at all!

Not sure what you'd call it actually, so I'll call it "Parent Friendly Guidelines" for now. Okay, as part of the adult leadership, I have a Cub Scout leader handbook, G2SS manual, rank guidlines, and various books of policies and guidlines as well as activity books, Academics,rank books and Cub's rank books, etc... I can reference pretty much whatever I want as it may pertain to me. But what about parents? Is there or have you ever created a smaller, shorter parent friendly book? We do hand out program guides to all new parents, but that is more of a "what we are about" and parent expectations kinda book. Okay, let's be more specific.... A while back, I read off and handed out awards at a pack meeting to the Cub Scouts for popcorn sales. I do not work on the committee or group that handles popcorn. Our CM has an unexpected thing come up and called me an hour before the meeting to se if I would hand out the awards and give recognition. That is my only involvement with this. So about 15 minutes before the pack meeting, a mom comes up and asks if her son would get a prize for sales. Then she tells me that they have "sold" over $500 worth of popcorn, already handed it out, but have not collected or turned in one cent yet. I told her that I had nothing to do with the popcorn, but handing out prizes as listed on a piece of paper as prepared by somebody else. She pushed and pushed, so I said: " If I had to guess, then no! Not until the money was turned in, but that is only my guess." She got mad, mubled something aboutme, the CM and popcorn, and walked off. You'd think it would be obvious that the mom/boy needed to turn in the money first, but then again, you'd think alot of stuff was obvious. LOL! I have read other comments from time to time about who the money belongs to, who should handle what, who is owed what, and other interesting things such as advancement, rank, awards and badges. Maybe a mom or dad thinks that their child is owed something or that their child has been wronged...when in actuall policy, everything is working great and right on track. Seeing as your explanation just won't do, is there a guide book available or one you created? Just saying because it seems that you can say policy all you want, and repeat it several times, but a handful of parents think the pack or troop just absolutely owes their kid something wether it be prizes, money, advancement or a badge. Your thoughts? Your ideas? What you/ your Pack/ your Troop did already

acco40, The CM reference was to the point of being that the original poster was told something about BOY Scouts that actually more resembles CUB Scouts. That is the only reason Cub Scouts was brought into the conversation.

Scoutnut, Cool, that makes sense to me. But let me explain, I do not plan or have any intentions of going from buisness to buisness soliciting donations. But pointed out that an ex... and possibly disgruntled ..former leader could go around local buisnesses and try to solicit funds. And pull out his ofical ID card and show it to people. Those buisnesses wouldn't know what people are and are not allowed to do. As far as my id card, I only mentioned it as an example . Like I said, nobody has ever asked to see it. I'm not stressed, freaked out or upset. I was only wondering. That's all. Never said I was mad, upset or depressed about it. But thanks for the answer.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

WOW! That is sooo what I was trying to say. LOL! That's what I meant by getting more time under my belt in order to have something for WB to enhance. because I do not yet know what I don't know! Unless I do but don't realize it yet! LOL!

NOPE! Been way longer than 4 months, been to alot of live in the flesh trainings and sat in front of real live instructors. And my application is correct as it only asks if I am a NEW ( versus former) adult leader, which I am. Not which leader position I plan to be each year. Probably because most CUB SCOUT leaders advance in relationship to their sons. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-501.pdf But lets see,,,You read a post and wah-lah.. became an instant psychologist? I never claimed to be an expert, but the fact remains... in Sept, packs do round up and the DE is there asking for money. Come December, the packs want dues for insurance and recharter. So BSA's fiscal year is cut in half by the calendar year. In CUB SCOUTS, the rank year follows the school year, but recharter follws trhe calendar year. It doesn't require anybody to be an "instant expert", just the ability to know what goes on around you. You know what..I'm not a meteoroligist, but I can tell when it's raining outside and when it's not! I'm not over analyzing anything..this is fact! And by the way, every other comment you post to me has something about Boy Scouts. Not sure why as I have repeadtedly said I am in CUB SCOUTS and do not have an interest ( as of now) about Bouy Scouts...yet you keep insisting I get training before trying to be SM or ASM. What is that about? You must be over analyzing! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

You know...we all have our moments when something gets the best of us, we make a bad decision, or just do something beneath our level of maturity. Well, in this case, it just seems like everybody had their moment at the same time. Kinda like those random momenst in a crowded building when everybody randomly stops talking at the exact same moment! It wasn't planned, nobody was working with anybody else on a time table...it just happened! And you have that erie silence. Same thing here: 3 or 4 people had their "less than stellar" moments at the same time. Wasn't planed, coordinated or anything like that... just random. AS long as it gets worked out and everybody moves forward..it is al good. And next time something might potentially happen, everybody has a previous point of reference on how to avoid the same mistakes!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

From everything I can read here : http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/pcomm.aspx and the broad implications I get from it..The CM's job is to pretty much carry out the plans and program that the committee decodes on. Hopefully, in order ensure the sucess of carrying out that plan..the committee actually listened to and took advice from the CM and ACM. But from what I see practiced, how the job descrpitions are listed and the way the organazational rank chart is shown ( which I couldn't draw right) the CM as well as the ACM worerk under the Committee. Now in out pack, most people understand that the CM and ACM are the most experienced and highest trained people in OUR pack and work to carry out and accomidate their plans. And although it is committees job to handle appointmenst of leadership, that kinda falls towards the Adults leaders and who they are comfortable working with..at least in our pack. So I realize that there are two different ways of looking at thuis: The way it is supposed to be, and what it really is.