RememberSchiff

I wish there was some reciprocity agreement or maybe a national known good guy list. Some way without having to go through yet another background check and revealing your SS# and other critical ID info each time you volunteer. BTW, it can be a PITA for us old farts as some background checks are required to go back your whole adult life where record storage pre-dates computer, i.e., microfiche, okay and maybe stone tablets too.

A group of scouters and camp alumni are not going quietly into the night - the Save Camp Russell campaign http://watertown.twcnews.com/content/news/all_news/801988/residents-fight-to-save-boy-scout-camp/ Some interesting points are made "They (Council ) didn't go about notifying the proper people for financial assistance," said Stephens. "There's many scouters out there that are willing to donate or willing to help financially, but they just haven't bothered to contact them." "Considering they're selling two camps, Cedarlands and Russell, maybe only get rid of one of the camps and see how that goes," said Tomm Meininger, a former camper. "And maybe see how it goes and if they need to get rid of the other one in the future." Seems some holes in the process used to close/sell camp. I wonder how many former scout camps have been sold/taken over by alumni associations?

Your luck has been better. Have not heard the SM's side. I agree there should be a SM conference. When we get a District Advancement Chair, I will ask him about that. In this matter, SM's are not trusted by the BSA so they are not empowered. If the BSA wants it that way, let's drop the signature as it implies approval which may not be the case or should a SM sign and add "Discussed. Approval should not be implied"? Mid 60's. Our Neighborhood Commissioner did. Did Councils empower differently? Maybe. He did unit full inspections and was a major presence at camporees. He graded each scout right down to the dime and hankerchief in their pocket, then it was the SM's turn and we wondered if our SM remembered to hide his Winston's. The NC reviewed membership and advancement records, each active scout had one double side sheet in the SM's notebook - simple. This didn't take long, nor did reviewing the program calendar (we went month by month). Most of his time was spent reviewing the troop bank ledger and checkbook. At the time, some units had some discrepancies and committeemen were removed. Quick and quiet - 'Thank you, we need someone else now.' Our council and the NC had zero tolerance for booze, another unit SM had a problem there and he was dismissed. Again quick and quiet. He spoke with SPL and ASPL, also asked Quartermaster for equipment list not to check inventory himself but to see if the QM was on top of it. NC was a WW2 vet and could turn from Friendly to stern with a snap of his finger. Back then, National had at least some of the common sense rules in place that some SM's want now. - Work on ranks in order, one at a time and tenure in rank required - Had to be FC to work on merit badges - No immediate recognition, you waited until COH Anyway his inspections were usually once a year. If the troop did well it received a flag ribbon in Feb, if not follow-up inspections were held. Sorry to ramble, Council did have quality control back then, scouting was more visible in the community. Our appearance in public and our public reputation were taken seriously. Scouts wore their uniforms as they walked to meetings (it was okay then). Downtown business windows were decorated by scouts for Feb Scout Week. Some wore their uniforms to junior high and on a dare, to high school. Sorry for the memory lane rambling. Well we have not heard from the OP SM and TC so that may not be true. Yes I have written Irving over the years, so far no response. Well maybe I influenced a change allowing scouts to help other organizations (in particular Salvation Army) raise money. I have felt that pain and did not win. This SM draws his political strength from his local Union of Wannabee Eagle Families. I contend that we scouters cannot fix any problems such as these with a troop, we can only move to another troop. Where's a good NC to enforce a quality troop program when you need one? Agreed. But for every dumb SM-made rule, I can find an even dumber National rule.

And that would be what...just talk. No authority to "do the right thing", in delivering on the promise. So Tommy Scout asks SM for a MB card. He plans to work on yet another merit badge with his Uncle Miltie, Aunt Bee, Mr. Easy, or Mrs. Alldone. The SM says he has already earn 3 from that MBC why not try another person (Adult association method). No thanks I will stick what works for me. Hrrrumph. Against his/her better judgment, the SM is required to sign the card. Hands are tied. So Tommy Scout asks SM for a MB card. He plans to work on several/all Eagle MB's with his Dad. Against his/her better judgment, the SM is required to sign the card. Hands are tied. Back in the day, my SM asked about my grades before issuing a card. And yes he said NO a couple of times. I guess that would be considered child abuse now. Around here the District Advancement Chair is often unfilled. Perhaps because they have no real authority to fix problems? BINGO. The SM is the one person who sees the whole picture - the SCOUT, the TROOP, the PROGRAM, and COUNCIL/NATIONAL. TRAIN him/her and TRUST his/her judgment. If not, go with my proposal. If the SM's reasons are sound (not just this is the way I have always done it) but the scout/family still disagree, find another troop. Got a SM who cannot explain his/her reasons, give the Unit Commissioner authority to talk and REMOVE that person if necessary, just like the old days. You are right, but they were in the OP. Another $0.01 P.S. The Merit Badge Program was already broken.

Scoutmasters are mentors to scouts - merit badges or not, signature or not. A scout can ask advice or not. So a proposal, I see no need for a SM signature if he/she has no authority in the process. For those who complain about SM's not performing or exceeding a responsibility, you get your wish. SM's are out of the loop. For all others who are allowed by council/National to change requirements for "good reasons" or not, they are not affected. Council is the sole gatekeeper (quality control) of the merit badge program. Prospective MBC's are vetted (really). Council maintains a current list of MBC's. Scouts select a MBC from a Council list. MBC's can carry a deck of blank blue cards or maybe scouts buy a deck of 21 cards from scoutstuff.org at crossover. Ka-ching. Parents and scouts can send praise and complaints regarding MBC's and any Council MB programs (summer camp, MB colleges) straight to Council. MB's are no longer the SM's or Troop Committee's problem other than awarding the badge. I think I like it.

If National does not trust the SM's judgment, then remove the SM from the process. Seems strange since National still unilaterally allows MBC's, camps, and MB colleges to make such decisions/restrictions. Read MB college and summer camp pamphlets and you will often see *footnotes, "MBC requires scout be FC", "Scout must be 13", "Scout must be at least 80lbs for shotgun..." Ok for them but not the SM, got it. So take the SM completely out the process. Council is the sole gatekeeper (quality control) and maintains the MBC list. Scouts select a MBC from a Council list. MBC's can carry a deck of blank blue cards. Parents and scouts can send praise and complaints regarding MBC's and any Council MB programs to Council. Not the SM's or Troop Committee's problem other than awarding the badge. Hmmm...

Maybe...sounding more troll than true. Good luck either way.

Responding to Tahawk. This is somewhat hypothetical as I am not a SM or this particular SM. 1. Everyday and twice as much on Sunday. 2. Not as much these days. The dark forces of parental or peer pressure are growing stronger. 3. So the end justifies the means? The scout did not have a signed card, the 18 yr MBC proceeded anyway. Two wrongs make a right and that's okay. If I was SM, I would have a conference with the scout about what it means to be Trustworthy. What happens the next time when an activity that he is interested requires SM approval, will he do another end around? But as the rules have changed (eroded the traditional MB process), I see no point requiring a SM to sign the blue card. If the scout wants advice then ask, if not fine. He's got an automatic green light no matter what. 4. The collateral damage is that scouters leave the BSA. Adults are harder to recruit if they know their judgment is not trusted and their decisions are not supported. My $0.02

Wow these responses woke me up faster than my coffee. Chapter and verse, it looks like I was wrong, wish I wasn't though. What I am reading is there is no longer any real need for the Scoutmaster or a "signed blue card" in the current merit badge process. A scout can just go take a merit badge any time, place, or counselor. Next up: Scout motto "Be Prepared" replaced with "Ready or Not" Refund $0.02 but not Cheerfully

What should I do? Encourage your son to learn from this and continue. You should step back and watch. This is scouting, boys learn from their mistakes and move forward. He will earn Lifesaving MB the right way. 1. The scout talks to his Scoutmaster first and seeks his/her approval to start work on a MB. Sometimes I do not return calls/email if I am traveling on business, particularly if the issue is better discussed in detail at the next scout meeting. For the scout, if a call/email is not returned, call/email again or seek a face-to-face meeting. 2. Approval is not automatic. A SM may reject the idea and deny a card but he/she will state the reasons. For Lifesaving, I think scouts need more upper body strength and maturity than the average 11 yr old. If your SM have been given the opportunity, he/she would likely have directed your scout to other scout activities or merit badges. 3. The 18yr MBC was wrong in allowing your son to take the class without a SM signed blue card. 4. This was the SM's call, the Troop Committee supports the SM decision not approves it. I think you misunderstood or were misinformed of their involvement. Usually troops have a new parent meeting early on where advancement and a myriad of other program specifics are explained so everyone is on the same page. Hopefully lessons learned for the next merit badge. My $0.02,

Don't like my example? Okay, but I think you understand the point I was making.

Less you go in severe shock, donations in money and some equipment are not turned away. Well that depends on your perspective. A PD wanting 100% pass seems unrealistic to SM. A SM wanting his scout to know and complete 100% of the MB seems unrealistic to PD. From personal experience, PD's often need to learn how to interact and trust adult volunteers. As the BSA emphasizes conflict-avoidance (ignore the geezers?), I am not optimistic. Quality of instruction and completion of requirements. Instructors unqualified as in cannot do first aid, they just read from the merit badge book. Heed "Do no further harm". Eagle MB and so the class is usually too large. Req 1 - too often assumed even if scout is not FC, so current knowledge is not demonstrated. Bandaging skills weak. What is a cravat? Req 2d SM believes cannot be done at camp. Req 3 - Patient survey not taught. CPR/AED often skipped for lack of experience or practice equipment. Req 4 - Splinting skill weaker than bandaging. Immobilization is not understood Req 5 - See Req 1, often assumed and skipped Req 6 - Most time spent here as carrying and running around with stretchers is fun Reg 7. Teach Reg 6 of course Citizenship, for the parts that can be done at camp, a knowledgeable staff is not present. It is almost as bad as the Jay Leno "Ask the Man on the Street". Our camp has it strengths and weaknesses, so with our troop adult help ignored with the latter, our SM directs our scouts to the strong areas. There is some action on the CIT age requirements. Some 13yr olds are more equal than others it seems. Another $0.02

Thanks for link. Your friend states "At many levels, France seems, at least partly, to be coming to terms with a new and visible generation of French men and women, millions of them the children and grandchildren of African immigrants." I would append "who are prevented or choose not to integrate into French society" and I think the generalization is true for all nations including us. "At many levels, countries need to come to terms with a new generation of citizens men and women, millions of them the children and grandchildren of immigrants or natives (legal or not) who are prevented or choose not to integrate into that nation's society." I think the US sometimes does a better job with some of our groups than others but we have had a long string of failures and a long way to go. Amish, American Indian (innocent Muslims were not sent to a Carlisle school), black, disabled, Japanese, Muslim (more died at 9/11 than Pearl Harbor but Muslim-Americans were not rounded up and placed in camps as Japanese Americans were), gay, Hispanic (bilingual programs seem to be part of the problem)... I will add this observation of a immigrant group (Russian) that deliberately refused to integrate into a nation's (Ukraine) society. Part of that nation (Crimea) is now part of Russia. Putin had a plan all along. As Scout leaders, we have seen the problems when the Scout Oath and Law are ignored for some councils, some units, or some scouts and what happens when National does not come to terms with a new generation of families and youth. Another $0.02,

As has been stated, qualified adult MBC's are often available but are turned away. These adult MBC's are either there with their troop for a week or are willing to volunteer for a week or two to teach scouts and correct the MB mill process. Be aware some scout camp sessions are now just 4 weeks. These adult volunteers are just not wanted; we have listed the excuses in this thread. Maybe change the tread to "Educating Camp Program Directors to accept adult volunteer MB help." We are considering our own troop summer camp though some adults would rather just send scouts to Provo and restrict which MB can be worked on. Our SM will not allow camp First Aid and Citizenship MB's. Previous complaints have been sent to Camp directors and SE and every summer it is same-old-same-old. My prediction is my troop will repeat same-old, same-old - hold their nose, go to same camp, see same problems, offer help, refused, complain, I remember when CIT minimum age was 15, it is now 13. And on it goes, round and round. My $0.02,

Sentinel thanks for the follow-up. Do they have concealed carry permits in Paris? No. The police guarding Charlie Hebdo were not even armed.

And what happened to multiculturalism last week? We were reminded that integration into a nation's culture and laws is critically important, or as Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam Ahmed Aboutaleb,himself a Muslim, told Muslims who have a problem with Western culture to “pack their bags and f--- off ... if you do not like freedom, in Heaven’s name pack your bag and leave."

Update from last night's meeting, etc. http://www.wktv.com/news/local/Scout...roperties.html Steven McEwan is the Scout Executive for the council. He says the plan is to use money from the sale (Russell and Cedarlands) to make many improvements to the 400 acre Camp Kingsley in Ava."The board voted that 5-10% of the initial sale will go immediately to help the development of Camp Kingsley. The rest will be put in an endowment where we will take a 5% draw every year for ongoing maintenance and programs at camp." The plan is to build cabins at Kingsley and install plumbing. McEwan also wants to incorporate STEM programs, even robotics and computer design in the future. Officials also hope to be more active in the neighboring Fish Creek for kayaking and fishing. They'll even have the means to add new programs with ATV's and snowmobiles. ... Officials don't anticipate the property will take long to sell, how it will be sold though is still undecided. The committee will meet Wednesday night to iron out those details. While the property will be up for sale immediately, plans for summer camp will go on as scheduled for 2015. No mention of the Camp Russell 2.5 acre parcel that cannot be sold (the NCAP process did not undercover this, rather the outside-the-loop scouting community) or further qualification about the endowment fund. IMO STEM programs, ATV's, and snowmobiles (on just a 400 acres Camp KIngsley?) and the required training, maintenance, insurance, and staffing will deplete that endowment quickly. Selling the primitive camp Cedarlands (over 4,300 acres with two lakes and three mountains) is not a good move, but apparently council/BSA now has an emotional connection to mimicking school STEM programs and turning away from our core outdoor program.

Good points. I occasionally discuss values (our freedoms), tolerance, respect, expectations, and vigilance around recent events at camp, school, town, the world. I need to learn and think more about this and discuss with my scouts more. As citizens, what response should we have to a group here who use their religion/ethnicity/position/affiliation/circumstances/whatever excuse to justify their crimes or suppress our freedoms? Can we have pocket communities which are free to be apart from America's laws and values, can a house divided still stand? Are we to be a nation with a rule of law? And many more questions...

We are not proud as war quickly shows us we are not the "good guy" or scout we thought we were. Duty, the other guy did it first, better them than us, whatever ends this quickest are our justifications. And they may work for the winning side but still don't always comfort in hindsight. Baden Powell as an example here might cause us discomfort. As to JoeBob's point about denying martyrdom and reward to "negative impact on their ability to recruit and motivate suicide attackers" is well considered, however, I think his burial idea would only motivate new recruits to seek revenge. Maybe the "Issues and Politics" forum should be removed or locked, as the connection of scouting with "issues and politics" is often not discussed. My $0.02

Having an Issues and Politics forum provided an open door. Let it stand for discussion. It seems human nature to speak disparagingly of your wartime enemy. Is it scout-like to do so? No. Is war scout-like? World Brotherhood, if so why the different set of rules? Perhaps at times, we need to think and fight like our enemy. What is a scout's responsibility during war - stateside and frontline? Duty to Country. What ideas do you have to better serve our country during this time of war? How does censoring this discussion help? Denying heaven, reminded me of John Ford's movie The Searchers [brad Jorgenson takes a small boulder and attempts to crush the skull of a dead Comanche warrior, the actor in grave is very obviously breathing] Reverend Clayton: Jorgenson! Ethan: Why don't you finish the job? [shoots out the eyes of the Comanche warrior] Reverend Clayton: What good did that do ya? Ethan: By what you preach, none. But what that Comanche believes, ain't got no eyes, he can't enter the spirit-land. Has to wander forever between the winds.You get it, Reverend. Ethan: [to Martin] Come on, blanket-head! My quick $0.01 for rambling

As shown, the Camp Facilities Evaluation Tool (CFET) has little or no honest analytical value in evaluating a camp. It is a means to an end. If you want to see the end of a particular camp for whatever reason then that is the means to justify it. The Summit might only score a C with my subjective use of this tool. If council has no local camp, there is no need for that council. Resistance is futile.

Followup with photos and more info at this link: http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/Area-first-responders-stage-mock-search-for-lost-6006819.php "Here's the scenario: After splitting into three groups to seek help for a 12-year-old who fell off a cliff and broke his leg, seven local Boy Scouts went missing somewhere in the 170 acres of open space at the John Sherman Hoyt Scout Reservation.Fortunately, the boys were not actually missing: They and emergency responders from multiple jurisdictions were engaged in a large-scale woodland search and rescue drill led by the West Redding Fire Department. Temperatures were in the teens and the ground was still covered with ice from Friday morning's snow showers when the two-hour exercise took place. Erik Areklett, of Redding Troop 15, played the role of the injured Scout. Another boy stayed with him while the other kids searched for help. Responders were able to practice emergency medical treatment and patient removal, off-road utility vehicle response, K-9 search, and personnel rehab and support services. ..." Second attempt to post

Oops... The Boy Scout Revolutionary Trail Council will maintain a small parcel of land at Camp Russell. After the news broke that the Boy Scouts were selling 400 acres in White Lake many people expressed concern over whether or not the organization had the right to sell the property. Camp Russell is made up of 8 parcels of land donated to the organization at different times over the past 100 years. Some of those parcels had clauses that stated if the property was no longer going to used as a scout camp, it was to be given back to the Russell family. The clauses came with expiration dates and many of those have expired. The clauses that have not expired have been removed by the family with the exception of one. There is still a 2.5 acre parcel that will not be sold. ... http://www.wktv.com/news/local/Boy_Scouts_to_retain_small_parcel_of_land_at_Camp_Russell.html

I needed some good news and I think I found it. Outdoor emergency drill by the pro's (WRFD, RSAR, a FEMA CERT service team, etc.) who will setup a National Incident Management System (NIMS) command at a scout camp. Scouts will be trained and involved in the drill. http://www.thereddingpilot.com/20852...ill-on-jan-10/ Boy Scouts from Redding Troop 15 will fill the role of lost and injured patients while also being taught the fundamentals of emergency first aid and wilderness survival. “This drill represents an opportunity for our Scouts to contribute to an important event and an amazing opportunity to learn vital life-saving skills from some of the best in the field of emergency services said Raymond Schaer, troop leader. Sounds done right.