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On 1/31/2023 at 2:24 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Putting bling on their uniforms is gonna be tough!

For reasons other than what you’re thinking. We’re no longer allowed to award bobcat (or any other pin, I presume) while  the scout is upside down. Good luck trying to get junior to rotate head-up before his/her birthday!

On 1/29/2023 at 1:29 PM, cmd said:

… Insurance - Insurance to cover physical harm to the adults makes sense to be per-adult, but if it's to protect against abuse lawsuits, more adults doesn't mean more opportunity for abuse to happen. …

You just hit on the solution. BSA’s liability (past and future) is a very large fixed cost. Lower membership equals higher cost per member. Increase membership, and costs will lower. However, the training mandates have drastically driven down adult membership.

Background checks of MBCs is fairly new. Even asking them to take YPT is a hurdle. If Cub parents would be willing and able counselors, we’d welcome them.

There is a necessary balance between @fred8033 and @5thGenTexan. We need to realize that any MC could have a chilling effect on the direct contact leaders’ creativity and dedication, but also that direct contact leaders do need mentoring and feedback.

On 1/27/2023 at 6:16 PM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Unpopular take: This is 2023. Grown men without children in the unit should not participate in overnight activities.

I'm fully aware this would exclude many terrific volunteers from participating in a key aspect of the program. By all means, they are welcome to volunteer in other capacities (staffing a day camp or training parent volunteers, for example). As a 30-something parent, I'd be highly skeptical of a male volunteering at the unit level if that person wasn't also a parent and I'm certain my wife shares my skepticism. And we all know moms drive the big household decisions (like whether kids get to participate in Scouting).

I will not hazard the well-being of the youth in my community by stepping back from scouting due to the prejudices of 30-somethings who, having a fraction of my training, make flawed ecological hypotheses.

The worst thing that a parent can do is assume that fellow parents will have their child’s best interest at heart.

The leaders contact their DE. Sometimes exceptions can be made.

Agreed. One of your ASM’s should serve as acting SM while the CO (maybe with input from the committee decides who should permanently fill this position. How they make that decision is up to you all.

But be sure to call your DC or DE. I’m sure that folks in your district would want to be involved in paying respects and helping your troop.

@curious_scouter, my only advice: don’t suffer fools. Training should be commensurate with the needs. For example, I don’t care how good my counselors are at shooting sports, their of no use to my scouts on land navigation challenges unless I know that they keep sharp in that skill.

Regarding mentoring youth … like you said, I need adults who can take a step back. For example, I am a very good cook, as are a couple of other dads. But if the boys are doing their own meals, we make our own adult cooking area. If we aren’t cooking and will be guests of a patrol, we sit apart waiting for them to invite us to table. Although I’m a good cook, I’m willing to eat a serving of burnt grilled cheese sandwich from the hand of a youth.

If my committee does one thing for us SM’s, they create an space for the adults to be comfortable at a distance from the boys.

I love it when my committee members camp with us!

I might also add: check with the scout. Every now and then you come across one who doesn’t want to be on the ballot. I personally think SM approval includes identifying candidates and letting them know that they may be up for election.

WV weather: note that many of us in lowlands go to places like Glenn Jean to cool off in the summer. A good summer rains every day and blazing sun every day.

Enjoy the blackberries before the bears do!

5 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Extrapolating membership results of other Scouting organizations after they admitted girls is interesting, but it is not predictive in our circumstances. 

… I just don’t accept argument that the admission of girls into Scouts BSA, which has led to significant girl involvement in groups separate from boys, has led to the diminishment of our membership or will do so in the future.  …

Extrapolating membership results nationwide from one enthusiastic scoutmaster’s troop is even less predictive of the nation’s circumstances. I was once that enthusiastic crew advisor, but I realized that irrational exuberance does nothing to prepare one for the future.

Ignoring the experience of other scout associations around the world is the height of arrogance. That’s okay. We’re American and need to maintain that exceptionalist swagger.

But one needs to own the at-home facts in evidence. This forum holds posts from scouters who’ve lost interest in BSA once it proposed BSA4G.  I’ve been at a dinner table of an 11 year old who resented the loss of a program that he thought would be exclusively for his own sex. I’ve sat fireside with a very articulate scout (now Eagle) who resented the presence of girl troops at camp.  It is absurd to think that the accrual of girls and their leaders in Scouts BSA was unrelated to the attrition of boys and their leaders at the same time in the same program.

If I’m wrong, if BSA boys vs. girl trends were coincidental, and if the USA is exceptional, then we can be rest easy and be presently surprised by 4% annual membership increases in both sexes going forward. I’d like to be pleasantly surprised.

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I wouldn't draw too tight a relationship between some of those trends because over the past 25 years there have been a lot of other things at play including a more universal disenchantment with scouting. A portion of my family is in Scouts Canada, in some cases in both Scouts Canada and BSA, and when talking to them, the view is more nuanced. Scouts Canada has been impacted by the Francophone and anti Commonwealth movement in some provinces that eschews all things British. There is an indigenous movement, much higher profile than here, that eschews all things Colonial. And Canadians in general have been distancing themselves in public life from anything connected to religious institutions. It's been kind of a triple whammy for scouting, which in Canada is seen to be connected to all three. 

Quite right. Scouting movements were banned in many Eastern Block  European countries, so they had no where to go but up as the few available adults waited for their youth to mature into competent leaders. Those programs were notably anti-fascist and over time their use of neckerchiefs began to be understood in opposition to (in contrast to allied with) red brigades. So, in contrast to Scouts CA, they had a trajectory of increasing growth that harmonized with prevailing political sentiment.

Scouts UK had to do a lot of hard work. In the 90’s, a large part of its new enrollment were girls, meaning that until about 2000, it kept loosing boys. But, those girls became leaders quickly and encouraged their male mates to contribute as well. The administration of Scouts UK began skewing younger and they did not let up on recruiting new, young leaders. However it was only a few years ago that it restored its male membership to 1991 levels.

Thus, my basis for a 25 year cycle to adapt. And this is where BSA faces a huge risk. It has some seasoned female scouters capable of training new leaders, but if we hew to our current cultural practice of waiting for leaders to become parents to start leading local youth movements … Well, folks are having kids later in life. Most girls in your troop won’t be Cub moms for at least another 17 year's. Most scout moms now may see themselves as GS moms, but they don’t see themselves as capable scoutmasters. Something in American society will have to change so our young women can look at their boyfriends and say, “Hey! Let’s start a Scouts BSA troop.” No change, and we can expect continued decades of decline. Someone/something intervenes, and we may see gains in girls begin to offset losses in boys in this decade, and then recoup market share of boys in the next decade.

Based on my review of census of European scout associations (posted elsewhere, too lazy to find links now):

Scout associations tend to have a decline in total membership for about a decade after admitting girls to their membership. Gains in female youth are more than offset by losses in male youth.

Some associations then begin to increase membership slowly. Based on anecdotes, growth in membership is due to a lack of trainable volunteers to lead the program, which in turn is a result from the dip in scouting alumni from the previous decade of decline.

A decade later, male membership begins to increase — sometimes with continuing increases in female membership, sometimes not. As the leadership slowly increases from the new ranks of scouting alumni, so does market share of male youth.

Thus, it seems to take roughly 25 years to recover the losses of male youth that seem to consistently occur after scout associations incorporate both sexes.

There is no reason to think that BSA will be any different. So, even if BSA4G continues to progress, we can expect membership declines well into the middle of this decade. And, we will continue to have less than desired market share of boys until 2035, at the earliest.

Facilities and other internal policies will not change this. This is purely a function of the organization’s available and willing leadership after such a major resetting of target demographics.

13 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Terrible. The struggle I find myself in with our units- people seem gung ho to try to move mountains to save the boys troop that has been around for 60+ years, but for the girls troop that doesn't have that longevity, its all shrugs.  

I'm not so sure why this is terrible. If you can't produce a program that girls enjoy and a CO loves to host, why should council bother?

Meanwhile, there are a lot of young (and young at heart) men who've benefited from that 60+ year-old troop. Some of them probably call their council to see what can be done to keep it from dissolving.

The bitter truth: it now rests squarely on the young women who've benefited from the program to promote it. If they conclude that they would have been better off with 100% of their time spent in GS/USA, their BSA4G troop will rightfully lose its foothold in the community.

Yes the funds belong to the CO for the purpose of implementing scouting.

That means that if someone pilfers those funds to enhance their bass boat, the church (in your case) has every right to take legal action.

If it really matters to them, provide projected income and expenses and end-of-year balance, and they can add it to their financial statement.

Persons wanting to more details can get trained and registered on the troop committee.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Nuanced doublespeak...

…

It would be more clearly understood if the GSUSA put out guidance to say GSUSA units are not to participate in events "sponsored" by the BSA.... ala District or Council events, National Jamborees, HABs, etc.

Life in the ‘80s: I once met a Greek young woman, recently converted to Evangelical Christianity, who patiently explained to me that she would retain her communist party membership because the party insisted that there was no conflict between their philosophy and any religion. I said, “OKay.”

It was hardly a week later that she burned her membership card due to how viciously they excoriated her for her newfound faith.

Kudos to GS/USA units who tune this stuff out. I encourage them to not violate my Rule #1 (Don’t ask for a rule, you’ll live to regret it.) and engage whatever community they find themselves in or beside.

@Casper72 thanks for the additional context.

As you can tell, we are divided as to the leadership needed for a small troop. Everyone agrees that an SPL is essential for coordinating three patrols. A troop that down to eight scouts only needs one youth leader and an assistant, and it doesn't make much difference if that pair is SPL/PL or PL/APL. Naturally, among 8 people there will usually only arise one or two leaders. What that means, is that as a troop size decreases, SPL is a less essential position, and any discussion over how elections for such a position are run become superfluous.

But, assume that you know the culture of your scouts and the district in which your troop operates, and that you see that there are tasks that will get done if you have an SPL that just won't happen if you don't have a scout wearing that patch. You also mentioned in your original post that others need a chance to be SPL. That makes no sense. The scout uniquely suited to perform those tasks needs to be SPL. If most scouts think the boy who's been doing those tasks has been doing them well, then it's their obligation to vote to retain him. If they think that another boy as developed leadership enough to do those well, then they install that new scout.

The truth about a small troop is that, for it to function at all, every scout has to step up and fulfill a position of responsibility or knock out an SM assigned service project. So you might indeed have several scouts who have developed their leadership skills enough to do the job. That's probably why your scouts' votes are evenly split. It's a good thing. However, we are in a weird space with these post-modern nomadic generations, where some overcome barriers to be physically present and others do not. Nobody relishes the thought of votes going uncounted. (You don't need to look further than more than a half dozen countries' evening news to know that.) But, nobody likes their decision being tied up waiting for a vote to come in from someone who is both physically and temporally absent.

 As others have said, your SM should have final say. But, since he asked you, you are right in wanting to be of some support. So, if you are going to advise, here's my suggestions, considering your role as COR:

• Your decision should not be based on the outcome. It shouldn't matter if the position changes hands or remains in the control of the same scout.
• Your decision should consider that for your troop size, this isn't a really pressing matter.
• You will have to insist to parents that they need to step back and enjoy a warm beverage in a corner somewhere.
• You should think about what's important to your church when it conducts business: timeliness or comprehensiveness?
• A fun idea for a tie breakers are always welcome.
• Does the church have a project or two that could benefit from a dedicated scout -- not necessarily an Eagle project, but something that a scout who's not an SPL can lean into and rally a few other scouts around?

I hope this helps. The truth is, there's no pat answer. But the goal is to have the scouts own the life of their troop as much as safety will allow.

5 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I am struggling to understand the concept of "cultural appropriation" and continue my studies…

But in the meantime, does an OA Lodge have some obligation to either obtain approval or conform to the Native American Personna of a tribe LOCAL to the Lodge's location?

That is, can an OA Lodge in Minnesota adopt a Seminole personna?

In my 50+ years of attending OA tap-out ceremonies in my Council, the ceremony always referenced the Lenni Lenape, which are from the upper Northeast.

So, are all OA Lodges to conform to the regalia of the Lenni Lenape?

Thanks.

I think, here, we need to distinguish between legend and culture. The legend of Delaware tribes uniting to fend off rivals is centers on Lenni Lenapi history -- as recorded by 18th century settlers and popularized by James Fennimore Cooper. The O/A adopted that legend to adopt an ethos of brotherhood. (The word "brother", in Lenni-Lenapi was especially confusing to Europeans trying to make -- or break -- land contracts. It had a much wider meaning than nuclear family.)

The dress, dances, etc ... should honor local tribes. Over the decades I have seen our lodges dress move from that of plains Indians to that of Iroquios and Deleware tribes. In other words, they became less movie theatre and more archeology/sociology.

Apologies, I didn’t track the tangent.

Here’s one thumbnail of Scouts South Africa https://histclo.com/youth/youth/org/sco/country/sa/scoutsa.htm

It seems that black, colored, Indian, and white South African troops arose independently and early in the organization’s history, much the way troops in US communities under polices of segregation arose. What’s notable about Scouts SA, is that — with “encouragement” from the Nordic Countries of WOSM they integrated in 1977 — in direct defiance of apartheid.

On 1/13/2023 at 6:31 PM, johnsch322 said:

Was that Black or White Africans?

On 1/14/2023 at 11:32 AM, johnsch322 said:

And they were very segregated.  

@johnsch322 paints with a discriminating broad brush. African Americans were advancing in European American troops from the early years of BSA …

https://aaregistry.org/story/first-black-eagle-scout-awarded/

They we’re also advancing in segregated troops, Martin Luther King, Jr’s troop being one of them.

I would suggest that it is harmful to one’s soul to conflate evils. There is a big difference in troops being founded by black leaders in segregated communities and the nation’s black scouts being “very segregated” from the nation’s white scouts.

I think the best thing that can be done is to encourage BSA4G scouting alumni associations (e.g., subsets of NESA and O/A) to follow up with young adults who were members of Scouts BSA girl troops and ask them if they’d be willing to give a presentation (maybe a video interview) of their experience as a scout and how they would like to see things evolve for our scouts of tomorrow. These presentations could be at troop meetings, round tables, or council and even community events.

In fact, a repository of videos from adults speaking to future youth and parents about the positives and negatives of their experiences as scouts would be a tool for course corrections as well as recruitment.

Another very-long-term tool: World Jamborees and other international scouting events. Getting our capable female youth and young adults to experience how coed and unisex organizations around the world make things work will yield the best results in developing better training and facilities management tool.

On 1/13/2023 at 1:36 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Explicitly?  As a parent of a Girl Scout and a Boy Scout, and working as a volunteer with both units, I never heard such a prohibition.

GS/USA tried to impose these strictures at a regional and council level in response to the advent of Scouts BSA. Memos regarding multi-organization activities began to be circulated. E.g., from https://www.gssne.org/content/dam/girlscouts-gssne/documents/GirlScout_Participation_in Activities_with_Other_Scouting_Organizations.pdf …

Quote

Girl Scout Participation in Activities with Other Scouting Organizations
The decision by Boy Scouts of America (BSA) to open the Boy Scout program to girls has fundamentally altered the nature of the relationship between BSA and Girl Scouts nationally and locally. Local relationships between BSA and Girl Scout councils that have led to partnerships and joint activities in the past will now expose our membership enrollment and brand to risks. This may mean that the relationship between a council and its BSA counterpart should fundamentally change.
…

I believe language of the sort made it into some troop training materials. (I say “some” because I suspect many trainers knew their audience was more focused on policies that helped their girls grow strong and good, and would not countenance time wasted on admonitions to protect a corporate brand.) In light of GS/USA backing away from trademark litigation this past July, one would hope that an encouragement to “play nice,” with other scouting organizations will also be disseminated. But, I won’t hold my breath, @InquisitiveScouter, for you to post such a memo from your GS/USA council.

@InquisitiveScouter, I once commented on discussions.scouting,org (back when they let us actually talk about administration and not just scoutbook) that an SPL in a small troop is superfluous. Boy, did I get raked! I couldn’t have drawn more fire if I spouted off about politics or religion.

So, just accept that it is not so much a PoR as it is a cult for a small troop.

A CoR really needs to stay above this very good learning experience for your scouts. One of them may be on the community’s elections board in a few years!

FWIW, a club I was in settled ties with an arm wrestling match.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

… just because a culture decided to be offended …

To be clear, “cultures” don’t “decide” to be offended. Some who associate with a culture claim a privileged position to speak for all of its members, and assert offense on their behalf. The may go so far as to demean those of their fellows who on record as seeing things differently.

It’s a big country. It’s been that way long before European conquests and waves of immigrants.