qwazse

This is pretty much how WSJ operated at Summit in 2019 (albeit with 4x the attendance). There were team activities in some areas, but ad hoc patrols could self-form for those.

Scouts wanting to ride the big zip, for example, checked out of camp as early as 5am to get in line. Some units were more tight-knit — especially if they had time slots for performing on one of the stages. But generally, as long as scouts were with a buddy, they had free reign of the place.

The Korean Jamboree Management Team, on the other hand, is scheduling many activities by patrol. I last experienced a system like that in the 1981 AP Hill NSJ. We got a stack of Hollerith cards that represented activities at particular times and locations. We would rifle through the stack each day and swap for adventures that interested us. I arrived at a few (orienteering, the dive tank, and pioneering) as a singleton.

BTW, it doesn’t have to be a campout. Small service projects that only need a handful of guys are great ways for introverts to find their way in the troop.

If you’ve seen how they behave on campouts enough to think that it’s their personality and not lack of skills, I think it’s a great idea.

My SM took a lot of time with us as individuals, and it was a good thing. For example, on one campout in the back of a fellow scout’s cow pasture, he came up to me with a capped metal tube and said, “I think you’ll find this interesting.” It was a WW-1 canvas box kite. Indeed, I was one of the few boys who were still mucking about with kites at that age, so I took to flying it while my patrol went about KP. It gave me the freedom to have my “introvert” space. And, once I had it aloft, it gave me something that I could hand off to other scouts when it was my shift to do something.

The scenario being imitated here is that of a formal cruise or a Navy junket. So, I would suggest the scout use his own or a similarly sized friend’s pants. If they are too large the scout would find them unwieldy.

(Although “acquiring” pants from a larger fellow passenger is a possible means to an end in this scenario, it’s probably not one we would want to encourage.)

On 3/19/2019 at 9:01 PM, qwazse said:

They are especially my scouts when they go on be professional video-journalists of stories like this Orlando Sentinel article

More humble brag, “my” scout gives a nod to his roots in the following interview: https://www.yourcommunitypaper.com/articles/cp-interview-patrick-connolly-explores-central-florida-for-a-living/

@5thGenTexan, it sounds like you’re in an ebb cycle. It happens. I’m afraid uniforming won’t help. The age pyramid in your troop has collapsed. That’s not bad, but it will try all y’all’s patience.

You’re in a “lead the horse to water” situation with your SM. You can share your vision with him, but I suspect you’ve done that. If there’s no other adult more to your liking who is willing to step forward, you must proceed with who you have. I’m gathering that syrupy sweet doesn’t come easy for you, but your best bet is to find one thing that this SM does right and heap on the praise.

The SPL is your key, but the lock seems pretty stiff. There might be a way to loosen it. In that 15 minutes of chaos before the SM arrives, have a special treat for the him and the PLs and assistants. It could be a snack, it could be a round of cards, darts, swap some patches, whatever. Something just for youth leadership to engage youth leadership. I sat in on “mini-PLCs” on the SM’s behalf for a year until he was ready to grab those reigns. Again, your goal here is to get to know these youth. Inform them of the next NYLT or other training. And figure out what it would take to get them there.

I sincerely believe that historically, the causality has been the opposite of depicted. As some troops in the ‘80s and ‘90s took uniforming less seriously, more adults were encouraged to wear a field uniform “as an example” to scouts. This was an attempt to get adults to communicate “I’m willing to wear this proudly, you should be willing too!”

Like every social experiment, there are successes and failures. I’m not sure how much one vs. the other occurred. There’s no real poll of the amount of uniforming one way or the other … only anecdotes from scouters when they don’t like how their people are using (or not using) the method.

The assumption is flawed that scouts’ uniforming is dependent on adults uniforming.

Growing up, we always looked sharp for our BoR’s, and none of the committee wore a field uniform. Half of our SMs did not wear a uniform, and we still dressed in our field uniform. That’s because we regularly had uniform inspection.

Currently, none of our committee wear uniforms, and our SM and ASMs do most of the time. Most of our scouts show up with the uniform shirt on every week.

If your problem is scouts not looking sharp, then that’s your problem with the scouts, don’t bring the adults into it.

Do your best to wear your uniform regularly. Apologize to the scouts any time you are not in uniform for a meeting or troop activity. And teach the scouts what you and the world expects of them.

If  your problem is that you’d prefer adults to appear looking sharp in field uniforms, tell them that is your personal preference. Thank them when they show up looking sharp. Leave the kids out of it. 

Remind everyone about the most important part of their uniform …

Their Smile.

23 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

… I'm curious about the older scout situation, too - did being confined to camp result in the other scouts looking down on the undisciplined scouts? Childrearing practices vary by culture, so I don't know if it makes sense to expect this, but if that had happened in my troop the offending scout would probably have been socially demoted to errand boy/girl.

I didn’t see any of that. I encouraged the scouts to make the evening enjoyable around our troop campfire, which is situated conveniently lakeside. They seem to have managed to do that without much grief. (I wasn’t present because there was a bunch of close-out stuff for me to do.)

5 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

People who grew up in an environment that taught them that rules are imposed by force by others and breaking them is fine as long as you don't get caught are not in a good position to notice the causal connections between different kinds of thoughts, speech, and actions and what happens in the "outside" world. They are ignorant of how cause and effect create a chain of links that entraps them in circles of unnecessary pain and personal suffering in the end. Not sure if this was your scouts or not, @qwazse, but one way or the other they do not perceive clearly... Yet, one hopes.

Hopefully, being sent home helps that scout think through cause and effect better in the future. …

Well, if by future you mean two days later at home, there’s room for pessimism. From what I witnessed of the scout-mom interaction, the parents have a tough row to hoe. 

5 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

… The older scouts... Yikes. Last day of camp, so now we can do anything? …

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I once read from a Scoutmaster back in the 1930's say: "Finding an annoyance that trumps self-righteous satisfaction is a constant challenge for the Scoutmaster". …

All we had left was the nuclear option of confining the whole troop to the campsite. I pushed that button for the sake of second- and third-year scouts. It’s a healthy lesson to know your actions impact others.

I love that “primordial goodness” bit, until I butt up against the head of a scout who picks and chooses the points he wants to obey. The day after a critical incident, the kid literally rattled off the law, skipping “courteous, kind, obedient.”

I corrected him on his omissions and said, “You made vows. They define what a scout is. If someone is the opposite of 1/4 of those things, they are not a scout. This is a scout camp.”

He tried, poorly, and still had to be sent home.

After that, I dealt with self righteous older scouts who should know better but disregarded the same points of the Scout Law — justifying doing so on the shaky grounds that it was their last day of camp.

I’m becoming more generally comfortable with the notion of total depravity, and our need for something to stand as a metric showing how we don’t measure up.

That said, I still try to dig deep and take a play from Aquinas to find the underlying good motivating a soul’s bad actions.

The net purpose, as with anything in these forums, is to give us a pulse on our nation’s and our world’s youth who enter and leave BSA.

I manage to only provide a handful of scoutmaster conferences on youth in my troop, and have other meaningful conversations with youth and scouters (some of them minorities) outside of my troop. That’s not a representative sample. And, when one of these people ask probing questions about why things are the way they are (be it membership policies or taught line hitches) I find the frank observations and reactions on this forum to be invaluable.

As to the OP of this thread, two troop alumni were able to come retrieve a youth from camp, but regardless of any training they may take, they won’t be able to serve as one of my second adult leaders on a camping trip for another two years. Most scouters around the world find this to be perverse on multiple levels.

The German scout association is an example of a highly federated system. It’s a very interesting model to observe. We see hints of it here in the very different uniforms of the various youth.

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

…. You don’t know how to help kids start to pray? We provide prayer templates that help you to be able to reach a broad audience with the connection through prayer.”

… “So that (those) who are experiencing the rappelling experience, …’”

Please let the devotion be titled “What To Pray When You See Your Rope Fray!”

If it’s any consolation, I was talking to a mom whose kids are in sports and their fees are climbing as well.

A sinking tide grounds all boats.

4 hours ago, nolesrule said:

… My brother had to dig up proof he took IOLS from his emails recently because it never got recorded by his council (he was not in an SM/ASM position at that time, so it wasn't imperative to double check accurate data entry).

It’s like I have an evil twin.

On 5/23/2023 at 7:05 PM, RainShine said:

... Bored with "scout stuff", he will change the subject to Ukraine war or whatever. …

If you want to have something up your sleeve for the next time Bobby spouts off, PM me, and I’ll share footage of Ukrainian defense forces using every scout skill in the book to rescue one of their mates.

Kudos to Bobby and Billy. Stop talking about advancement and start talking skills.

Specifically for Bobby, tell him that strangers on the internet want him to recite the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and all four verses of the Star Spangled Banner from memory before he says one more word about politics.

This week, we want him to memorize the headstones of the graves he decorates.

Then, before he says his second word about politics, we want him to arrange a town hike with his patrol to the local court house to meet your mayor, he sheriff, or some other elected officer.

Then we want him to coordinate your troops next flag retirement ceremony.

Then if you are near a naturalization center, we want him to prepare welcome packets for new immigrants and perform the opening ceremony in their honor.

Tell him that Eagle Scout strangers don’t give a fig about the patch over his left pocket. But, in two years, when it’s time to register to vote, he’d better darn well be prepared to run my country.

First mistake: a troop design that incorporates the name of the CO.

Second mistake: slapping a troop design on every piece of property.

Your identity is now with this CO. They were kind enough to take you in, you want to award them recognition on your new flag or whatever else you have. I would suggest you no longer bother with putting the CO’s name on every piece of cloth. Select a standard issue neckerchief, and use only your troop number on most of your gear.

Let the CO know your concerns, but be prepared to flex to them.

Implicit in expanding market share, one of the purposes of professional staff is promote the program to the people who are not yet sponsoring scouts. That balance between catering to existing volunteers and seeking out new ones (be they scouters, board members, donors, or CO’s) is precarious.

Point: I have a scout with ADHD who is struggling to master knots. He’s doing it, but it’s a challenge. How is it fair to him if your scouts can advance without knowing how to tie all of the knots that they should?

Counter-point: is the SM testing on land navigation? Safe swim defense? Fire building? Cooking? Bill of rights? Pull-ups? If not, why is the conference only covering a fraction of he skills a scout should have?

8 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

From the referenced news article the BSA's attorney  "Ashida retorted that in its nearly 120-year history the Boy Scouts have never had a firearm fatality. "That's never happened, " he said."

If that's true …

It’s not true. All of the standard operating procedures didn’t come out of thin air. Someone somewhere got hurt.

There’s a thread somewhere in this forum about a suicide at camp.

It may be that the quote is out of context. On a range following protocols to the letter, it’s hard to imagine how a fatality could occur.

I hope to high heaven that 4-H has never experienced anything like this.

9 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

… I'm astounded by the poor judgment on the part of every adult present.  How is it that none of them recognized how wrong an idea it was to bring their own completely inappropriate arsenal to a scout camp.  

How this happens? The modern interpretation of second amendment rights lends itself to gun enthusiasts who are not (possibly never were) part of a well-trained local militia.

It's nice that some years back, leaders of the pack and troop thought that some money should flow in the direction the troop treasurer observed flowing. They had their reasons. But ...

If your units did not have by-laws approved by the units and the CORs (and therefore the CO), then that is not an ensconced policy. So the reply to the troop treasurer should be, "Great, show me the by-laws specifying what should be transferred so the treasurer can note it the memo."

11 minutes ago, TWP said:

Yeah I don't want to put myself in a role where the initial reaction everyone has is that it's sketchy. I have done nothing to deserve that and I am not ok with being seen that way. If that's how people feel and I have to work to convince every single person I meet that I'm normal then I'm out

Don’t blame the organization or its members. Blame the people who took advantage of it and the subculture that encouraged them to act that way.

Personally, I don’t care if a scouter from other parts would show up with or without children of his/her own. I’m letting him/her in slowly.

My advice: show up at round table in your district. Look for training opportunities. Have fun.

Meanwhile, participate in local clubs that do activities related to the merit badges that you counsel. Those adults might have other connections that you might enjoy making.