qwazse

I like how you are thinking. Don’t send 1st and 2nd year scouts on HA’s. Really and truly, you want your HA contingent to have first class skills and to be practicing them throughout the year. That includes teaching them to 1st years at summer camp.

In fact younger scouts see a good role model as older scouts prepare for HA. (E.g. you all are basically in the one-hike-a-month club until you go to Philmont.) 

So, the ideal solution is that your “elite 8” attend summer camp as well as the HA. Is there anything getting in the way of you doing that?

7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

From the article:

"Short-term campouts provide variety in both preparation and experience, and the Scouts are more likely to have to set up their own tent and take more responsibility for outdoor living skills. A long-term summer camp is still a long-term camp even if the Scout is there for only a portion of the time. It’s an entirely different adventure and usually doesn’t call for the same level of self-reliance required for a short-term camp."

I think we'll count the canoe trek as 5 short-term camping experiences, with a day of canoeing between each one 😜

Your mental gymnastics could come back to bite …

• Philmont trek is a series of overnights interrupted by hikes with full packs.
• Seabase sailing adventures is a series of overnights interrupted by rolling up your bunk, stowing it in the hold, and snorkeling reefs or touring islands.
• We could say the same for extended adventures with dog sledding, cross country skiing, or circus caravans.

Look, let’s clear all of the machinations off the table and do what this forum prattles on incessantly about doing. Be boy led.

Have the scout read the requirements, look at his camping log, and ask him what he thinks should be decided.

2 hours ago, UKScouterInCA said:

OK, bit of an aside, but I always found the Req's for the Camping MB weird. The Scout can only claim one long term camping trip (up to 6 nights) and needs 20 nights. But no guidance on what a short term camping trip is. 1 night? 2? 3? 4? 5?. What about a Scout who has done multiple long term camps? It seems weird that they can use a one night car camping trip, but no nights at all from that 12 night Philmont expedition because they already had a summer camp counted? Or does it camp for x nights?

Asked and answered here: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

Wade through the myriad comments, if you dare.

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... I believe the philosophy behind the  eligibilty requirement is to eliminate camping in one place for the required nights. ...

I always believed the philosophy was to provide scout's fellows a sufficient amount of overnights with the troop on which to judge the candidate's merits. More nights throughout the year = more data points.

Since the canoe trip was a troop excursion and not some big-ticket provisional HA, it would mean the lad's character was manifest to the rest of your scouts on that trip. If he was a saint to scouts on land where you all were watching, but a jerk in his boat every time you adults were around the bend, he won't get elected.* If your boys are like mine, word gets around if one scout made the others' overnights miserable.

So, we're starting at different points but reaching the same conclusion. Lacking any other reservation on your part, count the nights.

*A rose by any other name ...

12 minutes ago, curious_scouter said:

Fair question.  I submitted my ASM application in February, my council still has not processed it.  We've been skating by because I'm still considered a "Den Leader" which does make me a registered leader over the age of 21.  We've taken it up with council and the DE and three weeks ago the response I got (in person) from my DE was that council is aware of my situation bu they are doing "new paperwork first" so my "transfer" still has not been prioritized.  We thought we had a better chance of the paperwork getting priority if it was done with recharter.

If the registrar make this a "hang-up", it's the fault of adults. The scout's application would not be rejected. An appeal to National would come down in favor of the scout.

Again, this is where getting to know your advancement chair comes in handy.

On 11/9/2022 at 9:18 AM, gpurlee said:

... The Scouting CEO position probably ranks in the top 10% of local not-for-profit social service CEO positions. The Scout executive has been paid much higher especially in relation to the overall budget of the organization. ...

What is the "overall budget of the organization" when the organization offloads stewardship of it's resources (meeting space, equipment, and a boatload of management onto COs and volunteers? If council-owned troops become increasingly popular, there will be budgets will increase and the SE's pay as a percentage of that budget will decrease, even if actually salary remains constant.

SE's get compensated well when a lot of other people do work for the council for little or nothing.

Our SM was unavailable, so Friday I conferenced and signed the Eagle App for a scout whose birthday was yesterday. (Yes, he registered to vote.)

I was in communication with the SM and other ASM's throughout.

Keep the BS out of the BSA.

Check in with your district/council advancement chair so that your current arrangement is well understood by all.

A scouter can be taught!

14 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

... I'm going to Kaibosh this idea of "operating patrols" for the next few outings at least and see how it pans out.  But... I thought this is a good place to sanity check this and to see if/how this has worked for others and if there's anything I should be aware of which I haven't encountered yet. 

@curious_scouter, Regarding that sanity check, let me hand down what my advisor told me when I was an Advisor dealing with all manner of cross-talk regarding how to do my job, and I asked, "Am I right, or am I crazy."

He said, "Oh, you may very well be crazy, but you are certainly right!"

If I were you, I'd get the "cooler boys" a patrol of two totem for their flag. What's going to happen if that pair are the only boys from their patrol who show up on activities ready to scout at full tilt and give other patrols a run for their money? Other scouts as nutty as them will want to be in their patrol.

Bottom line, don't break up patrols for your convenience. Let the scouts tell you and the SPL if they want to adjust their members. It can be because of attendance issues like the one that concerns you, or it could be because a couple of scouts in a patrol are like oil and water, or because of youth protection requirements. Ask the SPL to evaluate if it's a problem, invite him and the PLC to resolve it. They may need options, or they may already have their minds made up on what would be best. They just need the freedom to think that through.

14 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

... But here is the "RUB."

And it is significant.

Salaries get paid FIRST. (And of those salaries, I suspect that the SE's salary gets primacy-his/her salary gets paid first, in full, before any other in the event of a shortfall. I may be wrong, and so be it, but if others know more, please post.

The upshot of all of this is that Program is funded by the dregs. ...

So ... here's how to rub the other way. Invite big donors to your program. That makes the SE pay very close attention to you. If a donor is posting on his/her media page about the attendance of a scouting event that you programmed, I assure you that that program will get funding.

For any of you who are feeling an "ick" factor because you're "in it for the boys", please understand that the entire USA movement is founded by businessmen who understood cash flow far better than they understood youth development. Design a program that a businessman sees as a worthy investment, and you'll find more support for it than you may need or even want. Then you let your pro's do what they do best -- being a liaison who primes the pump for funding program and and solves many of your paperwork/legal challenges, justifying their salaries in the process.

6 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

... There are no external, market-based controls to my knowledge. ...

Oh, how cute. Thinking that executives of organizations under collapse would get reduced pay.

On the contrary, expect executive salaries to increase as councils merge and more demands will be placed on a professional who could find better compensation doing less for more in the private sector.

8 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Side note. It is no longer a Bridge of Review. It changed last year. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2021/08/02/take-note-of-these-11-key-changes-in-the-2021-guide-to-advancement/amp/

There you go reminding us of a scouting-pro's-dozen annual ideas that do nothing to motivate more growth -- be it personal or numeric. 

53 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

After years of my arguing, I'm flipping sides.   I'd like to see youth run/staffed BORs too.  ...

49 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Agreed, it is truly youth led.  Have adults in the back listen is great.  I might even say, maybe a mix of older youth and adults for the board ...   So IDK, I just like having the youth more involved at all levels.

How about a committee lead by SPLs to review adults before earning their "trained" patch?

@InquisitiveScouter and @fred8033 are working sides of the same coin ... that of mistrust.

Once upon a time (those of you who are older than me may snicker now) before districts were the size of councils: counselor lists were a district function, camps were district camps, it cost real money to communicate out of your area code, and SM's knew councilors quite well.

All of the verbal gymnastics in the GTA boil down to "a how to" when SM's or MC's don't trust MBC's. However, we need to understand that this is a truly tragic situation. Not because it happens, but because we've once again lost the skill of being plain-spoken. Take this phrase ...

19 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... Not a retest, but a confirmation of completing the requirements as written. ...

Might as well tell the scout you don't think he's trustworthy to read requirements and act accordingly.

19 hours ago, fred8033 said:

... Then again, I don't think the leadership or troop program or camping expectations are very consistent either.  Scouting has a huge variance away from average.   ...

Might as well tell scoutmasters that you don't think they are trustworthy to deliver a scouting program.

I like Fred's idea about more nights and less minutiae, but the bitter truth is that as long advancement has to be completed within 7 years or less, someone is going to find the high speed, low drag method of executing whatever requirements we conjure.

I'd rather tell a scout and scouter that 60 years ago National instituted an ageist policy regarding advancement, MBs evolved to be more like school and less like adventure. The complexity of advancement is the fault of neither scout or scouter. So, rather than circling that GTA drain, ask what your troop can do to bridge the gap between what an MBC actually taught and what we actually should have learned from the MB?

Instead of fretting over who skates by and who doesn't -- making BoRs dreadful things in the process -- let's make advancement scouting again.

I've found that, for me and my council, retaking YPT about now keeps peace with all of the bean-counters. (It also falls between mandatory work online retraining and open enrollment. So, all I have to do is stop watching war footage, and I'm golden.)

Did the test last night and aiming for the other 3 modules tonight. I guess I could have done the whole thing but taking a power drill to a pumpkin was way too much fun.

1 hour ago, jscouter1 said:

Is there any truth to this?

@jscouter1, you may not have noticed that BSA tends to recruit from within. Consider your the staff at your summer camp. Many were scouts who attended that camp and were recruited by camp staff. There is no better resume than the character shown over consecutive days.

That cuts both ways. Many staff chose to work at a camp because of the positive experiences they had while participating in camp programs. HA bases are no different.

I think the Daily Mail is using the holiday as a device to add some humor to a picture which may have been acquired some time time ago. I leave to native Brits to comment further on their countrymen’s sense of humor.

But … an interesting backstory would be if, off camera,  Bear Grylls talked to him about introducing his girls to scouting.

We might not know until the young ladies publish their own memoir decades from now. Until then, I’m willing to let them have a small niche of normalcy and explore no further.

10 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I was in marching band in high school, so I understand attention, marching, salutes. etc.  I have always been hesitant to get too much into that.  Just leery of making Scouts too "military" I guess.  

I did the band thing, too. Before that, the American Legion had a boys club where we went to the armory and drilled with mock rifles. Lots of activities were hosted at the armory or the VFW’s lawn. (The guy who directed me to these forums in the VFW band!) But in no uncertain terms did we consider any of that (or the marching that scouts did) military. It wasn’t until I befriended a professor in college who protested in the ‘60s that I realized how triggering much of that could be. However …

It’s all a matter of what we want to hand down. Your post opened with scouts disregarding protocol. It is possible that learning to be “in uniform” has more to do with becoming a well-rounded person than it does with becoming a cog in a military establishment. We’re giving scouts a culture that they can norm to. The O/A provides a slightly different culture. In doing so, we teach youth that they can be flexible and still retain their sense of self and moral compass.

5 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

What do you mean? Attention etc?

Yes. Somewhere I’ve seen posters of the scout sign, salute, handshake, attention, at ease, as well as marching formations. Many of us take it for granted because a lot of us saw our heroes in film. I had Dad, uncles, an aunt, older brothers, several cousins, in the military. There were a lot of parades. (Multiples on the same day … Mom went from street sale to street sale.) Many, many, military funerals. I’m sure some of you were immersed in that culture even more.
My kids only experienced a fraction of those events, the movies they watched rarely involves military or even marching band, and their video games skipped the flag protocol part of life.

On 10/19/2022 at 9:41 PM, MattR said:

Do the trek with friends. That will be memorable.

Or do the trek with strangers! Check with your council to see if they are forming a contingent or if a troop or crew is looking for scouts to round out their numbers. Many of my scouts took advantage of this.

Do you all have your own cork board or whiteboard for notices, meeting agendas, etc … ? Either that or a binder with those things would be good to have. The scribe could insert completed minutes and attendance sheets there as well.

I might also suggest some drawings of stances during protocol. Many scouts wouldn’t understand this as films and videos about life in a regiment aren’t a popular thing. There are especially very few such media for young women. My daughter, when she joined our crew, didn’t understand this aspect of scouting either. If you have a female officer in your neighborhood, encourage then to drop by to visit your troop. That might help.

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

… Often, the adventure is waiting to be discovered.  

 After CoH last night our SM and I were talking with our COR, and she asked if any of the boys had visited the nuclear power plant where she used to work. I asked if she knew anyone we could contact, and then the SM says, “Wait a minute, I have a colleague who works there!”

That next adventure could be in someone’s contacts list.

Something has clearly got blown out of proportion.
Do your best to iron things out. Get help if need be. 
There’s more to life than scouting, you have quite a few years of parenting ahead of you, and you all will be seeing each other in your community.

If this is a one patrol troop, who cares what the SPL does? That patrol’s duly elected PL needs to be challenged and mentored in taking care of her youth. It doesn’t matter if he duly elected PL has only earned Tenderfoot. Her goal is now to qualify to take her patrol hiking and camping.

The SPL doesn’t have to have interest in all the young scouts. (It’s nice when we have one like that.) She has to invest in one or two scouts: the PL and APL. The SPL can be encouraged to keep doing that networking thing she’s doing and look for activities the PL and her patrol might like to do.

I remind our SPLs that their job is to be as fun as it is rewarding.

The absentee SM is a problem … especially if you don’t have seasoned ASMs who will take up the mentoring slack in her absence. This may mean the ASMs “renting” the most experienced ASM from the boy troop for a while to bridge that gap.

On 10/22/2022 at 9:00 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Great units have great adventures.

I'm gonna tweak 'schiff's observation a little because folks these days equate adventure with "big ticket" scouting.

Great units find great adventure.

This the "magic" of my SM growing up. He was amazed by local history, so we went on a lot of town hikes. Even in our country hikes, if someone let us take a water break on our lawn, he'd welcome them to share what they knew about local native lore. If a scout overheard some debate about which side of the state line a local landmark was, he picked up the USGS map from the Agricultural Office and arranged to take us there to see for ourselves. On a routine campout, he handed me tube, out of which unfolded a WWI canvans box kite, which I proceeded to fly for hours. (In retrospect, I think it was a scheme to keep a young SPL from nagging his PLs. ) The town hike involved a visit to the county lock-up. One meeting each year was a hobby night ... we learned to pay attention to the interests of other scouts (none of which involved activities that could get us locked up, fortunately).

I’m sorry, you didn’t mention what game your scouts play before the opening our closing meeting.