qwazse

Thanks E92. What I'm trying to fish for here is precedent where the OA considers a youth who was not member of a troop was still retained as an Arrowman. So, were you are any of your youth ship mates or any of the young summer camp crew *not* registered with a troop?

It's the SM's call. The way I would do it: If there are bunks and mattress set up in an alcove, electric lighting supplied, it wouldn't count. If the boys are to find there way to a room in the cave where they are supposed to set up their bedding in an appropriate leave-no-trace manner, it would count. Now maybe the bunks were put there to protect the cave floor, in which case I might be inclined to count it.

"... They shouldn't call themselves a BSA Venture Crew ..." They don't. The call themselves Venturing crews!!! Look, I am constantly talking my crew down off of that soapbox. Just because we'd rather hike a few miles into camp, dig our own latrines, maybe set up a tent, then drop off cliffs or shoot trap the next day, doesn't mean we can't benefit from crews with other emphases. When dozens of crews gather for an Area Summit, there's lots to do. Sure, my youth will have a warm fire in some clearing -- rain or snow, but ... Who's gonna decorate the dining hall for the dance the next evening? Who's procuring a barge so we can have a cruise on the river? Who's organizing morning worship? Who's throwing out the first pitch at the baseball game? Doncha think that some of those crews have something to add to your weekend, thanks to dedicating their time to arts and hobbies, sports, youth ministry, and seafaring. And E92, it's only a win-win if all of those diverse crews are engaging somehow. You DEs threw out some pretty big carrots, but no sticks. Y'all said "come take advantage of our sweet insurance package and try out our council camps for your retreats." What you didn't say was "In return we expect your top youth to work our other crews' top youth."

Don't disrespect the role-playing crews. One of my scouts fell in with a live-action role playing (LARP) group and is having a great time. (Theatre major, go figure.) The boy Eagled and aged out from our troop this year. Then when our Area Venturing Officers Association was having a "Knights of Independence" theme, a LARPing crew helped organize some camp-wide games. It's not a problem if a crew's super-activities don't touch on HA. It is a problem if crews aren't gathering to mash-up ideas and activities. HA is fun. HA with swords and chainmail = ridiculous fun.

So if a boy transfers from a troop to a crew, does he lose his OA membership? If so, how would you enforce it, and has anyone tried? If not, then do we have a precedent of allowing venturers to be arrowmen?

Stosh, I understand the potential to draw top leaders, and have heard earfuls from adults worrying about it. But, as a youth I was a top leader, and was not distracted by explorers. So I always took the fears of naysayers with a grain of salt. Half of our troop's top youth leaders don't bother with our crew. The other half are in the crew AND lead the troop. Several of our events (backpacking, service projects) include the troop. Seeing other youth organize activities in our crew and other crews enabled our SPL's to put together more troop programs without adult meddling. It seems that our most active and responsible boys in the troop are our most active and responsible youth in the crew. Boys who quit the troop at some point never seem to join the crew. (Trust me, my boys tried to invite them.) So, I have not seen any leadership drain. We did lose boys whose parents were up in arms about our youth-led mindset -- probably included my refusal to fret over "first class first year." But again, none of those boys joined our crew. The advisors in our venturing committee pushed to drop paper crews from the roster. At the very least I was seeing our registrar waste ink over these guys. At the worst, UC's were getting assigned to ghosts. At the very worst we were feeding our Crew president a bunch of useless names and #s. Anyway I suspect that some of our membership loss was from us "boots on the ground" insisting that our SE take the BS out of the BSA. To be honest, if your crew as not done anything public involving your VOA (or the scouts in your district if you don't have a VOA), then you don't deserve our coverage.

To be honest, thinking back on lashing the second and third story of our summer camp tower in my youth, part of my adrenaline pump is screaming "hardhat on, 'biner in!"

Different troops have different visions for their summer camp. Ours is to return to the exact same spot year after year!

Regardless of who gets elected, you'll be able to help with the discussion among the responsible boys in your troop. You've clearly been putting a lot of thought into this. Definitely try to change your camping arrangements. Your adults are on the right track. Ideally, you put the patrol sites on opposite sides of the adult site with at least a stones throw between sites. Don't worry about that patrol of three. They'll be fine. Some hints: you don't always need a fly. One three-man tent sets up in a hurry. Single burner stove can cook up soup for three easily. The best way to get someone to do what you want is to make them think it was their idea. Your first act as SPL should be to listen. Ask they guys how they like their patrols. What could be better about them. Ideally, the "PL Reports" are part of each meeting. Not the PLC. Lacking any major activity they should be short and sweet. You might want to give them a default phrase "Sir, the Owl patrol has nothing to report tonight, but y'all just wait until next week." Like Stosh said below, most SPLs start out as "top down" managers and quickly learn how to be a "come along-side" leader.

It's a rare troop that will tolerate a crew operating in lock-step with the troop. There is often an adult (sometimes a youth, either boy scout or venturer) that will generate sour grapes. Someone will demand a separate space (or time-slot) for meetings. My crew meets twice a month. When the troop is meeting that day, we schedule the crew meeting for the 1/2 hour after the troop adjourns. The youth are what we call a "general interest crew". I.e., pretty much into the same things as the troop. We leave it up to the troop SPL and Crew president to determine which weekends will be shared activities and which will be separate. That keeps most of the naysayers at bay.

My troop is similar. You'll find lots of discussion about this on the previous version of this site (http://old.scouter.com/). Here a couple of the items that I've gleaned from it all ... When you go camping, how far apart are the patrols from each other and the adult leaders? In an open field, they should be a football fields distance apart. Now, sometimes in the tortuous hills where you and I live, that's not that practical. But the idea is that as patrols get used to living with each other at a distance apart (only coming together for assemblies or emergencies), they'll get it into their heads that scheduling stuff on their own isn't that far fetched. The part about not assigning boys to a patrol, but rather having friends choose to be together -- well that's like Fred said. If your patrol-mate is already your friend it's that much easier to pull together with him and do an activity. In fact I'd wager that there's a group of you boys who are already doing something together this weekend, they just aren't doing it with their patrol. Going directly to the SPL is a sign that the PL is not the boy's buddy. It happens. The SPL should tactfully bring it up to the PL. For example, "Joey came to me with an idea that he seemed really enthused about. Did he tell you about it?" If not, say "You or your APL should talk to him and see if it's something ya'll would like to make happen." Finally, patrol leaders should report at the meetings and "talk a little smack" to one another. "Since our last meeting, we Owls accomplished ...", "Well since our last meeting we Crows have decided to propose this troop activity ..." "Well we Ballistic Bluegills are proud to announce that two more boys made tenderfoot ..." The SPL should allow a little time at each troop meeting for a couple of patrol reports. Those are the little things that an SPL and his assistant can do to move toward your objective. Of course he needs the support of his SM for that (and sometimes the SM needs to be really thick skinned and able to back adults away so the boys have that latitude), but it sounds like your SPL would have that in your troop.

Looks like that's an individualized link, which probably is a simple security against non-participants taking the survey.

Carving/weaving: #1 wood block, #2 wicker chairs, #3 sculpture, #4 totem poles, #5 cargo nets.

Don't forget your slick promotional videos! Seriously, there are a number of camps out there with th HA competent. Ours isn't quite he tiered system that JoeBob has going. But it definitely gets the boys out from under merit badge burn-out.

You mean like this http://heritagereservation.org/eaglebase/programd.php ? For reasons that I still find a little odd, BSA has limited handgun training to Venturing.

Well, patrol cooking is definitely the glue of our summer camp. The trade-off is they have so much fun at it that they often skip camp-wide activities. It's also hard to tell who's ready for what at which age. Son #1 earned Archery at 11. I think if the camp had a wall with totems representing patrol challenges it would make it fun. They choose a totem, report to the camp director, get goals and objectives, report back, get some recognition.

Primitive arms #5: Atlatl Structures: #1 shelter, #2 tower, #3 bridge, #4 crane, #5 trebuchet.

Why not? Simply put, SMs want their boys all to themselves! They don't see it as a new program to bring youth who missed out on scouting one last chance, they see it as a big time drain on their oldest boys' time.

Well, in these days of photoshop, there is plausible deniability. But, if your SM gets a phone call let us know. I just wish you'd had the chance to work on the 30' towers I did in 1980.

Nice poll. Wonder how many venturers will think they are venture scouts.

Here's a question: If a boy leaves scouting, does he loose his membership in O/A? (Considering some of the machinations of our soon-to-be-former chartered organizations, this may be relevant to more than venturers.) If instead of multiple registration, a boy transfers to a crew (like E441 was thinking of doing, but maybe we'll talk him out of it ) does he get to retain his membership? Y'all get where I'm going with this.

Not sure why FCFY's tend not to run for OA. Maybe because there are so few of them in our troop and they see those older boys running after they took 4 years to get to FC, and that intimidates them. One boy, who I thought would have made a great candidate quit scouting to devote more time to his video games (really!) so he never came to camp that 2nd year. Our troop is larger than yours and has kids with behavioral disorders. Actually, many of those boys later tell me that the troop (along with junior ROTC) was the solution to those problems. Not getting elected for the 3rd time in a row was definitely the wake-up-call one boy needed. From then on, any foul comment from him I would reply "And you wonder why ...?" No need to fill in the blank, he knew exactly what I meant. You should dive into some of our old patrol method threads to see all the different ways these cliques are handled. We must have met the same immature Eagle scout, several times over! There are always exceptions to the rules. But, I've seen a lot of crews besides my own in the past six years, and I gotta say there are very few who aren't already boy scouts who would meet criteria for arrowmen. So our question boils down to a very small number. That in itself isn't a reason to maintain the current policy. It just gives us a feel of the magnitude of the problem. Why not make the adult leader's choice the only requirement? I think it's a matter of pride among the OA advisors that their youth are elected by a wide range of their peers. Nobody will buy into a double standard. So there will have to be a way that a venturer can get that "360 evaluation" that the average 1st class scout gets when he comes up for election.

For venturing, did you try this: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx Then look up all the crew advisors from your woodbadge class and give them a call.

skeptic, there's some kind of wannabe Puritan uprising going on in that council. K, I like your son's decision. Honestly, I would just tell his buddy to pray something from his heart using his own words. Just like what he might do for grace or bedtime. That's what Baden Powell would have done.