moosetracker

I do agree the policy does cause the zealots to go on witch hunts, regardless of the BSA words "to disagree but respect".. I am unsure this was quite a witch hunt, as she wasn't private or discrete, which means the man did not have to snoop for an answer, he asked an innocent question and got an answer that caused his conseravative beliefs to go all squirmy with homo-phobia.. And the truth is the BSA policy will support it.. The emails went too far, but it just shows his ignorance of what homosexuality is, if he feels he can talk and reason and preach someone into changing their ways, like it is a choice, and can be changed as easily as buying a new pair of sneakers.. Otherwise the going to the top, is his reaction to his feeling that it was that serious a matter.. We have advised people to go to the SE if we think it is that serious. But, I believe this guy has just lost alot of support and respect from the local scouting community he is in. He may himself have to leave for a new group when he finds he is shunned, and gets no help or cooperation from his fellow scouters.. He has made no friends, and may feel persecuted himself..

Ahh.. but with the hands off COR/IH then it is the committee that needs to know that they have the right to approach the COR/IH with the suggestion that this be the way the committee functions.. A hands off is a hands off, and they will never go to them with ideas on how the committee should function in their absentee, non-interested capacity.. They just do not care to take the lead in the matter.

Ahhh.. but there is nothing that officially writes a CC out, you just vote in a new CC and the COR signs the papers to replace the old CC with the new one.. OR as you state, if the COR is more hands on, they can choose their own CC.. Our old COR chose the CC & SM, and allowed all other people to be voted on.. But when she had to remove a CC, she chose to hold a committee vote, making sure she strongly stated her case for removal.. Our new COR holds the election for new CC & SM, yearly and the unit and choose to replace either position yearly by vote.

It is top down as far as the COR & IH can trump a committee vote.. But committees have been known in the past to vote out CEO's & Committe chairs in many organizations.. There is nothing stating the BSA committee works any differently then any other committee. If you COR/IH is hands off or supports the majority vote of their committee, it can and has been done in BSA history, many, many times.. And will continue to be done.

Yes, to have the committee vote, you need to have an IH of CO/COR that will support it, because if the CC goes crying to them, they can revoke the vote and put them back in the position.. COR/IH of the CO will trump all. But, with many units, where the COR & IH are silent partners, and really don't get involved in BSA issues, don't know the people or the problems, a heads up is a good idea, but they will usually bow to those who are dealing with the issues and problems, and do little more then support a majority vote of the unit.

Magnets?.. Maybe using some small metal objects & some paint you could make some cute plant decor (I thought I could find one or two on the internet), all I could find was a metal ant that if you were creative you could invision making similar bugs with bolts, nuts & screws http://jxart.en.alibaba.com/search/product?IndexArea=product_en&SearchText=garden planter decorations&fl=y&d_pid=342237898&d_type=sp Personally I like mine kind high up on a thin wire wire stuck in the dirt, cute bug (ladybug, butterfly, grasshopper) thing hovering.. I did find some christmas ornaments made from nuts & bolts. http://www.favecrafts.com/Ornaments/Nuts-and-Bolts-Christmas-Ornaments-from-Inspired-at-Home# Candles? Fire starters? Bird houses out of Gords? (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

My husband teased me this morning about the oncomming hurricane. When I took Woodbadge, my first weekend was during the tail end of a hurricane, nothing to rip the tents off of our heads, but hot & steamy that you got drenched in even in a raincoat.. And the tent flaps opened & my sleeping bag (with about 5-10 other peoples needed staff to take to a dryer for us. This year I am on staff for the first time, luckily it is not a woodbadge weekend, just the staff weekend.. But here we are with a hurricane coming again.. Hopefully this can brew now, and let us have good weather during the true Woodbadge weekends.

Can we rehire the old National Council??

Eagle92 - Definately No public school would do a thing to make this kid think he was not treated as an equal, or they would be pulled into a court system faster then you could say "Lawyer".. And I would pre-fix the private schools as only those who have conservative issues.. Because most of the private schools would also treat them as equals if they can not hold up any type of reason why their beliefs system or overall school vision is against it. Also my little speech was not about the chain of command.. That would be IH (which you had reason why that was out.) Then you DE (who might want to know before the SE, rather then being blindsided by it by the SE, and may be the better first person).. It was more about, just not allowing them to fight this fight with one youth and a family who does not know the ropes, and is fearful of the council thinking they are some unreachable high power and are intimidated by them.. That is what bullies count on, their victims remaining powerless and defensless by not seeking help. It is also about the more damage this boy will suffer if it is dragged along for months.. It is best to knock them out cold, at the very least get them to stop ASAP. If the rumors in the troop are as wide as you say and the family feels everyone in the troop knows what it is.. Then I think a public appolgy by them would be in order, to stop anyone else who wishes to spread the rumor outside of the troop.. Something Generic like "You may have heard about the investigation we started against xyz, we were totally wrong & sorry.." Wouldn't hurt the scouts reputation any more then it is now, and would do loads to fix it. Of course if the council investigates and deems the 5 should be dismissed pronto.. That would also work to restore the scouts reputation, without the public appology.. Does your troop have enough adult leadership to survive if the 5 bozo's are dismissed? Edited to add: BP I do agree with your idea of not making it public.. The question is, how public has the 5 leaders made it already, and how do you undo the damage quickly. If it is public, then the stop of the rumor at the level it has progressed and no more further should be made in a way not to drag out all the dirt, but in a way to just say.. "This was a mistake,and should not have happened."(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Is this a serious question Engineer?.. Because BSA is being removed from schools and PTA is ending the chartering of troops due to BSA's stance on homosexuals & atheists.. Our DE is finding them fabricating reason why we can't send out flyers and have to force them treat BSA equally, so they have to allow all youth organizations or none from promoting at schools, all due to the BSA's stance. Therefore they would never have a need to question any student on their sexuality, or consider it a reason to suspend them from school, or treat them any differently then any other student.. Now maybe you could find a conservative religous private school.. For them, they follow their own rules and may think an interegation is perfectly acceptable.. (Are you maybe asking about any type of issue?) Something like drugs, or bringing a knife or gun to school. Then it is definately to call the police in.. Smoking in the bathroom? Or stealing something high end like a laptop or guitar? Or a school fight.. That I don't know, I know it use to be a trip to the principals office for some grilling and trying to get you to confess, but since my days in school, there has been alot of new "student rights" put into effect.. My son got suspended for fighting, but there was no investigation as he admitted to it.. Got suspended for a few days, I wasn't even asked to go talk to the principle or anything, and we didn't fight the decision.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I will keep him and his family in my thoughts & prayers.. That is so sad.

Eagle92 - understand it is a very delicate situation, but the fear of going to the higher ups that can stomp it into the ground is going to keep them victims of this vicious crew, if they don't plan on running. Bottom line, does the scout feel he has been falsly accused? If so, then stand up and get the higher ups to address the issue and stop these vigilantees in their tracks.. It is similar to a rape victim not comeing forward to the authorities for fear. In the past there was reason to fear, police did treat the victim as if they somehow invited it, not anymore, yet victims still fear reporting the incident for fear it will come back to it being their fault. In the meantime, 3 others are raped.. The Scouting community is trying to keep this tarnished reputation of their opinion towards homosexuals & athiests in check with the public by stating they have no ill will towards these groups, they just don't want them as their members.. If an SE or any scout professional gets wind of a possible lawsuit that will show them as a committee going a unfounded "gay" hunts similar to witch-hunts they will be definately ready to put an end to it, and that means asking your scout & his family how high they would like them to jump. As someone stated the rule is the good of the community out way that of the few. What I disagree with is his opinion that that means the troop will win over the scout.. No way.. The fear of alot more negative publicity on their anti-gay stance, means that the the could loose many current & many potential future prospects.. Sorry over hundreds, the troop looses. This is NOT.. I repeat not stating that the family needs to go public.. It is stating that the FEAR by the scouting professional of it going public if they do not handle it correctly, will keep have them working for your friends, without them even making the threat. In fact they can state to them very frankly one thing they want is for it NOT to go public, and for the council to find ways to undo the damage the idiots have done to their sons reputation.. I bet the Council Execs will happily agree that making it a public matter is not what they want either, and the family is being very sensible. Bottom line is if your scout feels he is in the right and wants to fight. Then, he needs to go in with a strong one/two punch and knock them out.. Not have this dwindle on and on and on, for months, withe the 5 leaders feeding the juicy gossipy news to everyone around them.. There are many things not adding up in the stories.. Find the incosistancies to prove the leaders are in the wrong.. Here is one.. They state they are trying to keep it private, yet they hold a meeting with all the scouts waiting outside with nothing to do while it is conducted. And the SM states he needs committee approval to release information to the parents, or the scout.. So therefore for the committee to vote on it, all committee members must know about the incident (not private).. The the Committee Chair state no knowledge of it.. So then is it not a topic at the committee, but the SM is just making up stories about why he can not talk to the people who are most affected and need to know what the charges are..?? I agree they are making up tales as they go.. Follow the bread crumbs and piece togeather proof for the Council and help with support for the family to give them the courage to walk in and demand Council support.. They deserve it.

I hope we get an update on the SE's take on things. I doubt that they have a serious accusation on this boy that the Council knows about, and the Council did not act on it, or told the Unit leaders to handle it on there own terms. They may have knowledge of a small incident they think unworthy of their attention, and therefore told the Adult leadership to handle it with the assumption that the unit had adults with common sense and not on an out-of-control power trip. I can see this type of reaction if all it was is an off-the cuff remark, that was inappropriate. Either way, if you are accused of something, I disagee with leadership, penalizing you for it without letting you know what you are accused of.. Or grilling you for something you did, that you have no idea what that something is.. How can you defend your actions without knowing what you are accused of, especially if someone is lying about the accusation. I had that happen once where my management denied me a pay raise due to something I was accused of saying to someone else. I was not told what it was, so I could not answer the charge. It took years to find out it was a woman, on a stab-you-in-the-back mission for promotion, who wanted my job, who accused me of telling her she could not go on vacation.. Well there was something, she said she was off the next week, and I laughed and teased her about it, saying something like "How will this place function without you!!".. I was not her boss, or even a member of her department. So what swing she put on that to management to get my raise denied I am unsure.. But by the time I figured out what it was, it was years past, and the damage was done. "You know what you did.." is not a reason not to allow the person the benifit of knowing what they are accused of .. Because.. "No" they do not know what they are accussed of doing, unless they are truely guilty of it.. And I know that we did have an incident, years back in our unit. Council, Leaders met with accused scout & parents and did inform them what he was accused of. The scout admitted to doing it, and he was removed from the troop.. So unless this is a new policy of not informing the accused, then it is not a nationwide policy..

ScoutMom - So now you are down to one way or another he is lying, if nothing else is wrong with this young man.. Does that lying warrent not being allowed to run for SPL or ASPL? Should he be kicked out of the troop for lying?.. I guess I would not see it as a mortal sin if I lie to get away from an abusive situation.. If this boy was being abused and harrassed, and they were forcing and taunting him to say something to get away from the abuse, I would not hang the one who was abused up for lying, to escape persecution.. Not sure what the bullying was like for the boy, but something caused him to think this was the way out. Whether it was a little uncomfortable for him and he cracked and called "uncle" without much pressure, or if it got to be unbearable and he took alot of abuse before caving in to a "forced" declaration. Does the range of abuse he had to take to crack, play into how guilty he might be of the charge of lying.

How many of you have heard, or had rumors that some of their boys engage in premarital sex? Do you pull them in for a conference with 5 adult leaders every time you hear any possible rumor? How many of you have had Adult leaders wind up splitting with there spouses over adultery?.. Do you do and internal investigation, and rip the position patch off their sleeves for it? 5yearscouter son spent a month tenting with this youth, and never had any feeling anything was wrong or he was being "chased" by a preditor.. The scout may have made a comment.. It reached adult leadership same as it may reach them about a comment from a scout about the number of girls he may have bedded.. Through rumor you have no idea if it was an off the cuff not serious remark, or some with the girls some boyhood bragging rights with no facts behind either of them. There no one accusing him of molesting other youths, just an off hand comment made.. Being gay or bi-sexual does not make you a "predator" by default. Making a comment does not make you a predator either. No it is not something to bring up, unless you would like to investigate every rumor of misconduct and every verbal insinuation of this or that in the same manner.. And penalize every scout who is sexually active out of wedlock, or has an alcoholic beverage. Or every Scouter caught cheating on their spouse.. Sorry are we Puritans going after those of low moral conduct and stoning them to death, or of the modern society. Sorry, BSA is wrong to only point to two issues they feel are morality issues, and ignore all others.. When the world around them would view at least the adultery aspect as a bigger morality issue because it is a breaking of the 10 commandments..

If the issue is a rumor the boy sexually abused another boy while in scouts, the leaders have the right to notify the Council and step back and let them handle the issue. They do not have the training to approach a possibly sexual abuse case in an way that makes sure the rights of the accused are not violated. If the issue is a rumor the boy may be homosexual, they are way out of line to even approach the subject. Even if the boy walks & talks femine-like and when out of uniform wears pink silk.. I disagree with this statement by the OP (although not looking at it as his opinion, just that he is mis-informed.) I understand that BSA is against homosexuals and bisexuals, so this boy's continuing BSA membership and chance at finishing his Eagle are in jeopardy. The BSA's policy is for Adult leaders, not youth.. It is supposably their way of establishing moral role models, although their take on morality is another issue, since you can spend your days in a whore house and be considered morally up-right enough to be a BSA leader. (now if in a police raid that is another issue).. Their policy on gays has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with scouts, only scouters.. This boy could still earn his Eagle even if he was homosexual.. This inquesition was also done at a boy scout meeting, during the scout meeting hours, not even held at the end of the meeting after other people left. A definate attempt to make sure it was public knowledge. Highlighted by the points made that the other boys were not kept engaged, but stood outside waiting for the inquesition to be over, and the comment one of the adults in the room filled her daughter in on the goings on.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I don't know if you can or should use it against him for his advancement, I will let others better qualified weigh in on that. After all others in your troop may be doing the same thing on off-scouting hours, they are just not vocal about it. I do think it can be used for a educational tool.. This boy should learn from others that others will look at this for evaluation, future colleges, future employers.. And that what he puts on his facebook may cost him big time.. We had to "educate" a scout who turned 18 and became an adult leader in watching what he wrote as the younger scouts were looking up to him. BSA is the "safe" place to learn about the world around them.. It seems like a perfect time to educate.

SR540Beaver is correct about any new assignments. For boys already working the MB with her, I don't think you can force them mid-stream to change. But, you can let them know that you would be open to anyone wishing to change mid-stream.. I believe once working with a MBC it is their call, to stay with them or not.

I'd take the story with a grain of salt. ALL the parents might be 1 or 2 exaggerated by a home sick kid. Also 6 hours is a long way to travel for one or two hour visit. If that is not round trip, then that is a 12 hour drive! Also personally I never felt guilty about not doing what the "other parents" were doing as long as I knew my son was not neglected.. Other parents give thier kids $20 a week allowance, too bad $5 is good.. Other parents bought thier kids the latest game system.. You have the computer & games for that and gameboy, you don't need the latest fad.. Other parents bought their kids a new car.. Sorry work to buy your own car, and insurance and upkeep..

the Pack was a long time ago, but I do not remember people being upset over one scouts bling over another and comparing it.. I do remembe our den looking at the other den of the same rank, who was churning up and getting all the advancement (none of us though grumbled that it might be pencil-whipped, we thought they were really working hard and had their nose to advancement & advancement only.) We all asked each other if we wanted to start cranking up our advancement to keep up, consensus was "NO" we were enjoying our time in cub scouts, and would earn what we needed for the rank, but did not need to go above and beyound.. Just have fun.. The other group never made it to webeloes cross over, some big high tension blow-up between the adults and they all dis-banded.. Meanwhile we just kept having fun. Now in BS, surprisingly our old Den Leader suddenly zeroed in on our sons advancement, and started comparing it to his son, and got competitive. Things were said by him like "Your son could have gotten to that rank, because mine is not there yet.." Well we only lasted a year in that troop and moved on. But, whenever we met up the father wanted to match our son's advancement to his son's advancement.. I think it was because one time I blew up at him about something. The patrol leader couldn't make a campout, and I found out left the patrol high & dry about food on the night of.. I called the old Den Leader to suggest our boys get together to do the food shopping to both earn the rank advancement.. (Ok, not more then 2 months out of cub scouts and still in helecopter mode..).. He said he had to check something and would call me back.. No call, so I called him up to say it had to be now or never, and I was ready to go with my son to the store.. The answer I got was don't worry, I had my son take care of it.. There was not enough time to work together.. Well I did see red, because if that was his opinion, he should have let my son go alone, rather then yank opportunity away from my son give it to his son to do.. And I went up one side of him and down the other.. I guess he was such a great and fair Den Leader, this action was the last thing I would expect of him.. He really lost my respect and trust that day. After that he was in a constant "My son is better then your son" type of attitude.. And always comparing the two..

Well, I don't think most troops do push that level of EXPERT.. Ours did not.. True are citizenships are usually done by lawyers (we have two).. We have a fireman & nurse in our troop (and I hear the head of ER to our hospital whose son just crossed over).. so first aid & Emergancy prep and some other items are covered. Rest of my family took anything water related as they all got Red Cross Life Saving & Swim Instuctor.. We had a high rank officer in the National Guard doing the physical fitness & emergancy prep until he left the troop. Me, I am more low key.. I took Computers, being a programmer, Family Life due to my Psychology & Sociology Major, plus personal interest still in the subject.. And Art due to personal interest.. Most MBC's in our troop are more low key also in our troop, with just an interest in a subject matter, or due to normal average common place type of knowledge due to their normal average everyday type of job.. And I think that is average for most troops. Can you know ALL the merit badge subject?? No.. Do you have personal interest or your job brings you in general knowledge of 5 or so MB.. Yes, I think most people can find at least 5 MB that they could be a counselor for.

Yeah, I have always been an MBC for anyone, but I really only had scouts from my troop approach me. Since I left the troop, now going on 3 years, those from the troop who come to me have been slowly fading as new scouts now don't know me anymore. Now, my husband and son & Daughter-in-law do get outside troop requests for the swimming / lifesavings MB's as there are few in counsel who can teach them as you need to be Swimming Instructor certified to be an MBC for those. I would imagine the shooting sports are similar, although maybe less so as they are an elective. But the scouts tend to go to people they know, and troops don't encorage them to expand their horizions..

Congradulations.. Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job. But.. Yes they know a good thing when they see it and will latch on with all their might. So again, for you to notice BEFORE they suck you under is a good thing.. Keep evaluating and start saying "NO" when it is too much, and you will do fine.

A few my son did that if the camp has the proper items was great for my son. Horseback riding, metalwork (the one with the blacksmith stuff). I guess some may disagree, but I thought the pottery & basketry.. Yeah arts & crafts and you can do indoors, but I guess I spent many (non-BSA) camps doing this type of artsy-craftsy things at my camp simply for the fun of it.. Those are simple, easy fun courses..

It is sad to see this with any young person. But scouting has an organization is sadly not in the position to teach this particular value of treating all people as equals. They can't state that thier predjudices are fine, but yours are not. Treating all people as equals, is not something, I feel the Boys Scout program could help me teach my son, due to their views. It was something that had to be taught at home, (as other values that scouting could help to reinforce.).. They can teach at least to treat them respectfully, in passing.. So the verbal insults should have been redirected. But, they can't promote that scouts be accepting and inclusive and without predjudice. Because they can't walk the walk, so they can't talk the talk. Now an individual SM or adult leader, may be able to instill these types of values, if they have them in their own personal lives. Sadly this boy did not have these values taught at home.. Most probably his values were even fostered from his own family values. It is sad, because the world is changing these beliefs and his views will find him more and more people who are intolerant to him for them. So can he have these poisonous beliefs and still be an Eagle Scout?.. Sadly yes.. Not one that many will respect though. Like you yourself.