mk9750

Acco, Some of your lecture is misdirected. It wasn't FOG who wrote that he required a particluar MB be completed before another, it was me writing about our SM who does this. Frankly, he knows it is not proper to do this, as do I. And that is why I make sure anyone who wants to pursue any of these badges knows he is more than able to contact another Counselor. None of our guys choose to. The boys who have gone through (what they jokingly refer to at Eagle COHs as) the "Triumverate of Terror" all tell the younger guys that this was the best way to do these badges. Doing it like this has made it much easier for Scouts to understand the interelationship between the three. But before a boy takes a blue card, he knows that if he wants to work on one of these, he can go to another Counselor (including me. I am a Counselor for Community and Nation, but never actually counseled a boy on these. Our SM does a much better job than could I on these. Just hated someone getting the knock for something I wrote. Mark

How many boys registered? 31 How many boys active? 30 with one completely inactive and to be dropped from the roster in January, one more teetering. How many Patrols? 3 Does your troop go to summer camp in or out of Council? Out, alternating between two different. Does your troop go to Dist/Council Camporees? Only Klondike. Does your troop support FOS? Mildly Does your troop sell Popcorn? If not, what are your fundraisers? Yes, plus yard cleanup, car wash, and pancake breakfast. Does your troop use NSP, FCFY method? NSP Sometimes, depends on size of incoming class. FC Emphasis? I think. The program provides the opportunity, I don't know if that counts. FCFY? We don't specifically recognize boys who accomplish this. Does your troop have a Venture Patrol? Yes, but the current make up of it has gotten a little lazy. They've not done much. Does your troop have a feeder pack? Yes, although they are are smallest source of Scouts. We draw from four other packs, too. How does your troop recruit non-Cub Scouts? We've not put much effort into this. It's one area just ripe for improvement. Has your troop seen your Unit Commissioner in the past 6 months? No. He showed up at a COH in a Scout shirt and jeans 2 years ago, and was embarased with all our guys in full uniform. Hasn't been back since. Is your Unit Commissioner helpful or a pain? N/A Does your troop leaders attend Roundtable? Another area for improvement. The Rounstables are weak, and rather than helping improve them, we have opted out. How many members are on your troop committee? I think we have 23 registered, with 12 or so very active. We have 7 "real" ASMs, and five more who are alumni but away at college now. Is your troop boy led? At yesterday's event, very much so. At Tuesday's Troop meeting, not hardly. Most of our adults would tell you that our boys are not grasping the opportunity we give them to run the Troop. I am beginning to believe we adults pay more lip service to the concept than actually provide the boys the chance to run their own program. Purcelce, Nice idea here. I kind of wish this were the way all of these kinds of topics were presented. Mark

Hops, Here's some off the wall commentary I bet you won't get elsewhere. My oldest son also bought the Ranier that Eagledad mentioned. It's a great pack, and I was pleased with what I paid for it. HOWEVER: Everytime my son went on a backpacking trip, the SM complained about his pack. Seems the most efficient way he found to put eight backpacks in his Chevy Suburban was to stand them up. The frame on the Jansport was about 3/8" too tall to allow this one to be stood up straight. It's a minor point, but check out how the pack will best fit in the vehicle it will most often ride in. Mark

We don't have too many problems with this. Every once in a while, a kid will slip and use a word he knows he shouldn't. When it happens, an adult giving him a look is enough to remind him not to do it again. Hell and damn have become acceptable in our Troop. I'm not particularly on board with that, but it falls into the "where to you want to pick your fights" realm. Most everything else is off limits for boys and adults. If we started having a problem, and couldn't control it with looks, or the "Scout - Like" sentence, I'd suggest to the SPL instituting a "cuss cup". When ever someone hears you swear, pitch in a quarter. Knowing our guys, if they went for this, they'd use the money for extra presents for the veterans at the VA Hospital (we're going tonight, if the weather allows). Mark

KS, Your post hit while I was composing mine. Some of the points might seem contradictory, but I think with a small amount of explaining, they might seem more complimentary. I think the extra that we get out of our guys is not better memorization, but better understanding of the hows and whys. Discussing the Bill of rights is the basis of one of the requirements for Cit / Nation. Many of our guys go into their sessions with the SM having memorized the basics of each of the first ten Amendments. By the time they're done with the session, they understand why freedom of religion was so important to the framers. They understand the concpet of geo-political borders, and the have an appreciation for why Japan's economy has an effect on ours. Unless a guy sits in a MB session and just shrugs his shoulders during these conversations, they take on more of a teaching opportunity than asking a boy to come back to be tested later. I'm not so sure any of our guys could get a Poly Sci or Economics degree because they had any of us as Counselors, but we all recognize they are capable of understanding the whys of things they know because of the MBs they earned with us. Mark

In our Troop, we have four very active MB Counselors. One does the three Citezenship badges, one does the Scout skill type badges (camping, hiking, etc.), one does the aquatics MBs, and I do what I call the soft skill MBs (Communications, Personal Mgt., Family Life). This covers most of the required badges. We specifically do not do First Aid or Personal Fitness, to force a boy to seek a Counselor outside the Troop. If you do the Citizenship badges with our SM, you WILL do Community first, Nation second, and World third. The way he works on these makes one a prerequisite for the other. I have sat in on some of his sessions. From my experience, and that of my two sons, earning these MBs have helped them tremendously in school. All of the guys in our Troop get remarks from Social Study teachers saying it is remarkable the knowledge these guys come to their class with. If you do Personal Management with me, you WILL have either a part time job, or some other significant income before you write your budget plan. I am a firm believer that one cannot learn the value of planning a budget if the plan is to cover a $2.00 per week allowance. When guys get done with the MBs I work on with them, they each know the value of planning. It is quite embarassing, but during every Eagle BOR, the District Advancment Chair askes candidates which MB they got the most value from. Every time, Personal Management has been the answer. I used to think that they said this just because I was in the room, but at some point if someone was trying to kiss my posterior, they's say Communications or Family Life, just by accident. My point is that what boys learn from these MBs boils down to what the Counselor expects of the boy. Could a boy meet the requirement by keeping track of his $2.00 mommy gives him every week? As long as $0.30 (or so) goes to "pay yourself first", sure, I guess. Could a boy earn Citizen of the Nation by remebering for a few minutes who your U.S. Senators are? Yep. But a good Counselor, IMO, asks for more. And when you ask, most every boy will delivery. I suspect some might interpret my answer as putting artificial barriers in front of a boy advancing. I'm sure it looks like that, but we allow any boy who wants to pursue another MB Counselor if they want. So far, only one boy has done so, and he came back asking me to go over some of the requirements with him because the resume' he wrote was criticized by a school teacher to whom he turned his into for a project. I am very clear when writing out Blue Cards for Scouts that they likely will find another Counselor easier than the four I listed above. Somehow almost all of our guys would rather take the high road. Mark

Acco, Can I phrase a small part of your post slightly differently? Could it be that Sturgen, despite being techically permited to wear an Eagle badge, really isn't being an Eagle Scout? I hadn't thought about this like that, but if that's what you meant, the idea has some merit. Now that I'm thinking along those lines, I had an association with a Scouter in a Cub Pack that displayed very similiar traits. Never seemed to want to conform. Worked hard to raise the ire of District and Council folks. Rarely seemed to be completely honest about many things. Seemed to think that decorating his Den's uniforms with various awards, patches and recognitions was the purpose of Scouting (OK, maybe that's not what Sturgen's thinking, but the personality traits are similiar). He presented himself as an Eagle Scout, but there were plenty of things that made me question the veracity of the claim. I always held the belief that even if he earned it, he was one those few people for whom the phrase "once an Eagle, always an Eagle" doesn't apply. Maybe I've met a second? Mark

Just wanted to point out that was my shortest post ever. Mark

Eh?

Bob, I want to believe you made an unfortunate, unintentional mistatement when you said that the reason was unimportant. I cannot recall one instance in my experience when knowing the cause of a problem wasn't the easiest and best way to solve the problem and keep it from recurring. It's possible to correct a problem without knowing its origin, but the best, and usually the easiest, road to repair includes an evaluation of the root cause of the problem. To all: Again, parts of this discussion have deteriorated, and a major reason for this is the inability or unwillingness of some posters to try to understand what another poster is saying, then picking on one small phrase and showing how it could mean something different. The discussion about whether this Troop really exists is the most recent example of this. Bob was asked if the Troop existed. It may have been easier to just say "Yes, it does", but instead he used a phrase that I understood to mean that it not only does exist in his experience, but it most likely exists in every Council. Could it be that this language was used to trick the reader into thinking the Troop existed when it did not? OK, I guess it could. But I think it is obvious what Bob meant. Those who called him out on the point, in my opinion, did so just to pick a fight. Where does this serve anyone? If you want to criticize his manner for making his point, have at it, but I'd personally appreciate it if it was advertized as such. Before some of you jump on me for being one of Bob's puppets, I think you should know that I've criticized Bob in the past, too. Sometimes his ability to make his position known without sounding like a know - it - all is lacking. And I've told him so. But some of you guys attack him for sport, it seems, and I find that unScoutlike. Mark

Bob, I asked a question about how we can classify our Troop concerning FCFY, and although I appreciate the gentle correction you made as to terminology, I really didn't see (or maybe I didn't understand) and answer. Then Eagledad makes a point that was pretty much what I was trying to say. I believe our program is designed in such a way that a Scout has the opportunity to earn First Class in about 15 months if he particpates. we don't call it First Class Emphasis, we just call it our annual program. But although the opportunity is there, only some Scouts take take the initiative and advance. My question was whether we satisfy the intent of the elelments of First Class Emphasis. If we do, I think all some of us are arguing over is semantics. It sounds to me like Eagledad and I have the First Class Emphasis, we just don't call it that. However, if success in getting boys to First Class in a year or so is required to say we utilize that program feature, then a guess I'll have to say we don't. If success is required, we could make this happen. But in my experience (and it is limited to only one Troop), the only way to do so is to force boys to advance. I know you would never advocate that, and I'd rather quit than do so. Provide the opportunity? You bet! Make it happen? Never! Mark

I think there is recognition for your time spent as a Scout. It's the Service Stars. Sure, they don't identify what rank you were, but they do help identify your time in the program. Mark

OGE, My mind was wandering down the same path yours did. Can you imagine how outrageous someone has to be to get FOG worried he's going to sound like Bob? I think FOG used the best analogy on this topic (hitting the soccer ball with a 2" x 4"). FOG, you do realize that one is likely to boonerang on you, right? Sturgen, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your Troop does what it does because you believe it is in the best interest of the boys in your Troop. If so, if you really have the best interest at heart, please reread the posts from those who differ with you with as much objectivity as you can. Your methods are not Scouting's methods, and most of what you describe as your methods really don't help accomplish the Aims of the BSA, IMVHO. If you can't reread these post objectively (it is difficult to try to be objective when people are attacking a position you hold dear), try this: Make an appointment with your District Executive or Scout Executive and discuss your philosophies with him or her. They are the profesionals that are required to understand the program and why it is what it is (the rest of us only Promise to know, understand, and deliver the Program as designed). Let them give you their reasons for why you should alter your actions. If you do this, I'd love to hear the results. Good luck to your Scouts. Mark

NJ, Agree or disagree, makes no matter - I love ya man! (And no, that doesn't indicate a softening on my position on the gay issue! LOL) Agree new adults' packs should also be inspected. We do that. I disagree that boys can't do this. If they've developed to the point where there as expert as the adults, they have the ability to protect neebies from harm. I can tell you for sure that I would rather have any of 15 boys in my Troop check my pack than all but two of the adults. Mark

MARK (imagine this in as large a font as you have, and think of the words of John Hancock)

Bob, I have heard comments about FCFY helping retain Scouts before. I've also heard stats about the percentage of Scouts who go to summer camp their first year and what their retention rate is. I believe our Troop can lend credence to the ascertation that significantly more Scouts that go to summer camp their first year stay with the program. But I don't know how to classify our Troop as to FCFY. The boys in my Troop make an annual plan that includes the opportunity for each boy to learn all of the skills required to make First Class in about 15 - 16 months. My first question is whether that qualifies as FCFY. Second, although I am very confident that our program provides this opportunity, the results from our Troop (in terms of actual advancement) are not as predictable as I think you lead people to believe they would be. Historically, we usually have 1 - 3 (out of n average class size of about 8) boys actually earn FC by the end of the 15 month program "year". Most get there in about 24 months, and it seems every class has one or two guys who take as many as 36 months. At first, I suspected that this was caused by us not usually using the NSP method. However, even when we have (3 times in the last 8 years), the results seem to be about the same. So does providing the opportunity qualify as FCFY, or do the majority of the Scouts need to be successful at FCFY? At the risk of speaking for Hunt, I think you might have misinterpreted his comments. You're right that it only requires three campouts, but I thought he was referencing the requirment to attend 10 Troop / Patrol events. In either case, I think his point was very valid: A FCFY emphisis is likely to cause a more interesting program with fun events. Mark

Checking packs in this instance is vital. It should not be overlooked. Of course, it should be the boys checking them. The way we have done this is to have everyone bring their pack the Tuesday before the weekend event. the SPL unpacks his pack completely, and verifies that he has everything on a checklist, and that he can justify carrying anything else not on the list. The ASPL does the same thing. Then the Troop splits into Patrols, and the Patrol leader does the same thing. Once everyone has seen a few of the leaders' packs inspected, they have an idea what needs added or subtracted, and why. After that, they leave it up to the boys to decide whether to add or subtract anything. Boys who have had a history of mispacking always seem to be in the crosshairs of their PL until they prove they can pack properly. Our guys are considering eliminating the pack inspection for all but new guys to a specific high venture event. It's become more time consuming than the value it provides, as everyone seems to pack well unless they are new to an event. Mark

Sturgen, I agree with you that there is much value for the vast majority of Scouts by working through the advancement program more methodically than it would take to become an Eagle at 13 or 14. I believe this with all my heart. And I think Saltheart has the proper method for helping that to happen: Adult mentorship to get each Scout to be certain for himself that they have met the requirements. In this manner, those very, very few boys who meet the requirements properly at an early age are rewarded for their legitimate effort. And, on the flip side, this would prevent another problem I have witnessed. I have seen circumstances where a boy had NOT made Eagle by the time he was 17 or 17.5, and it became almost a "well, he's gotten this far. We can't let him fail now. What do we need to do to make this happen for him?" scenerio. This is no better than an Eagle that is "too young". However, I have three very significant problems with your Troop's philosophy. The first is your comment about the SM's role as only dealing with the SPL and the JASMs. You're right, training the boys in these two important jobs is the most identifiable role a SM has in a boy run Troop. But that is by no means his only role. EVERY boy deserves his SM to get to know him, understand him, and help guide him to be the best man he can be. This is not a job to be delegated to youth leadership. This is a job specifically and soley for the SM and the ASMs. Any SM who maintains a hands - off approach except for the SPL and JASMs is not doing the most rewarding of his jobs. Secondly, your boy run Board of Review, quite frankly, is a horrendous idea. First, as Bob White is fond of saying, you might be doing this in a Scout uniform, but it isn't Scouting. Second, a Board of Review is not a test. It is an opportunity for the Troop Committee (which are all adults over 21) to review the program from the boy's perspective to assure that the program is meeting the Aims and Methods of Scouting. Although I would applaud a committee of boys meeting to review their efforts in this regard, an individual's BOR is not the place for them to do this. And third, one of the benefits boys get from a BOR is the opportunity to interact with adults, leading them to become more comfortable when other instances, like job interviews, come the boy's way. By taking away this very importnat aspect of the Scouting program, you deprive a Scout valuable life experience. I personally like the idea of a boy review of skills before a requirement is signed off. We do this as much as possible in our Troop. A boy learns the skill, he practices (at campouts and Troop competitions), and then he is tested, usually by an older Scout. We also provide an opportunity for a Scout to teach the skill to someone else to reinforce it, but this is not a part of the requirment. But once an older Scout has initialled the boy's book as requirement complete, it's complete, and no one - Not SM, not boys, not SPL, and not BOR can undo this. Don't get me wrong, I generally agree with your premise that young Eagle Scouts are rarely good Eagle Scouts. But it does happen (look back through DSteele's history in this forum. You'll meet a man who single handedly convinced me that it isn't impossible to be a 13 year old Eagle). And to create a rule that would prevent even one guy who deserves the rank would be wrong. Welcome to the forum. I hope you find guidance here. Even when we disagree, we usually won't bite. Please don't take anything personally. Almost everyone here can hate the idea and still like the person. Mark

Rooster, I think I know what you're trying to say, but I think you and I see such things in a slightly different light. For instance, you regret being so preoccupied with girls. Although it may not have caused a specific positive trait that manifested itself later in your life, I still thnk it was valuable to helping form the person you are now, and from my seat, I think you're a fine person. Would you be better for not having spent time chasing skirts? I'm not so sure you could really make that case. The wall of your life is made up of all of the stones used to build it. Most are average, a few very big, and some are just fillers. One or two have flaws. But even the flawed stones are what give the wall character. I'm not so sure we should be questioning things we did in the past so critically. If what we've done made us less of a person for it (for me, being lazy and gaining weight are examples), then yes, maybe we should be critical of our past. But you are the good person you are specifically BECAUSE of many of those experiences you describe wanting to change. You have always been very open about how important your faith is to you. Do you not feel as though having been a wanderer earlier in your life helped bring you to the understanding of God you have now? And if so, although I can understand your wish that you had the benefit of such understanding longer in your life, you have to acknowledge that perhaps your understanding would not have been as clear if you did not come of it in the manner you have. I know I'm rambling again. Sorry. But I think you are being tougher on yourself than is called for. Mark

KS, As the movie critics might say, as I ready your response, "I laughed. I cried. it was a terrific story." Good stuff on the transfer. Kind of goes to prove a saying I have heard once or twice: Don't ever do anything too well. You never know when it will cause you more work. But I'll bet you didn't drive home swearing under your breath about it, did you? As to your status as a hero, OK, I'll buy that to some degree. The guys who are in places that make them unsure whether they will ever get home sure qualify for a higher level of hero. But they can't do what they do without guys like you doing what you do. If your humility won't let you accept it, fine. But I've got tremendous respect for ALL of you. OK, I'll end the lovefest now. Mark

I guess at times I am guilty of being too proud of myself, but I feel I have done an acceptable job being an example to my children, and a loving husband to my wife. These are the two responsiblities I feel I have been charged with on this earth, and I feel good about how I have done so far. The only two things I can think of that I would change would be to have worked harder in school, and to avoid gaining the weight I have gained in my adult life. I think both of these have caused me difficulty setting an example for my sons. I've tried to use the negative to try to make positive statements, but there is a limit to how much "do as I say, not as I did" kids will accept. Other than that, any changes I might have made are minor. I would nto have started smoking. Quitting was the hardest thing I ever did (DS, you can do it if you want! If you've risen above the other obstacles in your way, you can quit. I know it!). And I had an opportunity to sign a minor league baseball contract when I was 19 and didn't do it. I knew then, and know now, that I was not talented enough to go far, and I had a job paying more than baseball would have, so I passed. Now I kind of wish I had done it, just for the experience. Mark

Right On DSteele!! Couldn't agree more with you about KS! I think everyone of you folks in the military should be thanked every chance we get. I think everyone one of you folks in Scouting should be thanked every chance we get. Thank you, Thank you! KS - I'm curious as to how you ended up as SM after your move (I am assuming you are the SM in your new Troop). how'd that work out? BTW, I agree 100% with you. A few years ago, I moaned constantly about having to pay to volunteer. Now I realize that I don't pay enough for what I get out of this program. I am convinced I have been exposed to some of the finest people I will ever meet because of Boy Scouts. I've learned some of the most important lessons I will ever learn from Scouts (well, except for putting the toilet seat down!). And my sons will have had an oppotunity like no other in Scouting. I am indeed a very fortunate man. Mark

KS, You're one of my favorite (or favourite for Eamonn - LOL) posters on this board, and you'd have to be a lot tougher on me to offend me. I agree 100% with you, and our Troop works very much the same as yours when it comes to SM conferences and BORs. I tried to go back and count how many of these occassions I remember, and I think it was three or four (I admit to throwing a number out that I hadn't really thought about before I typed it). If the most recent is representative of all of them, the boy was a friend of my son's, who was over our house all of the time. He spoke very freely one day while having dinner with us about an incident harassing a girl a school with a group of other guys. He felt it was quite funny, and couldn't understand why the Assistant Principal was all in a tither about it. During the weeks before our CoHs, it is very common for the SM to do conferneces in almost an assembly line fasion, and then send the guys over to our area where a group of adults do BORs. In this case, the SM had no reason to know of this, the Scout did not mention it to the SM, as it was probably 6 - 8 months before the conference. But because I knew about it, and keep the same kind of notes it sounds like you do, I brought it up in his BOR. In no way do I want to portray our SM as derelict. He is very thourough at SM conferences, particularly for 1st class and up. He just didn't know about this one, and I did. In another instance I remember, I was acting as SM at summer camp, and our SM was not there. One boy had a number of insances at summer camp that the SM was not aware of. On the other hand, the SM has dealt with issues at the SM conference that we as a BOR would not even know existed. I recognize that everyone feels as though the way they do things is best, or at least works for them. I don't mean to sound as arrogant as I'm sure I will when I say this works for us, but it does. I'm very proud of the character, and the skills, that our boys exhibit. Whenever presented with a venue where I can compare guys in our Troop to guys in other Troops in our area, I've never failed to feel proud. Thanks for the challenge. I hope my explaination makes sense. Mark

EaglenKY, This issue has been discussed at least a couple of times, so you might want to review some old threads for some insight. I am the Advancement Chair, not a SM, but I've had to formulate a game plan for dealing with this issue too. What I've come up with, after reading so many of the great posters here, is that I now have a philosophy that gets the boy to satisfy himself that he has met the requirements. When it comes to Scout Spirit, during BORs, I (or one of my co-conspirators) asks a boy if he has demonstrated Scout Spitit in his everyday life. When he says yes, we ask for examples. If we are aware of occassions when he has not, we ask him to explain how these acts square with his assertation that he has lived according the the Scout Oath and Law. The conversation usually is a great back and forth that leads to the Scout understanding that failures are a part of life, and that if he is making a full effort, and correcting things when he goes off the path, he can feel comfortable knowing that he has complied with the requirment. On occasion, we've had boys who know themselves that they need to improve this significantly. the conversation then centers on him coming to the realization that he needs more time to work on this. Once he does, I offer the Scout the chance to suspend the BOR and set a date for when we could reconvene to review his effort at Scout Spirit. Some Scouts have been slower than others at realizing this, but I have never denied a Scout at the BOR. I've had five or six ask to suspend the conversation. Mark

Eammon, One of the only laments I have consistently had over my 12 years in this great program is that it has to be run like a business. There's no way in $^&& that it should have to be, and, at a unit level, I don't think it usually is. But at the district level and above, unfortunately, it does have to be run like a business. And sometimes that means making numbers look good. If it isn't illegal, immoral or dangerous, it sometimes is "just the way it is". ON THE OTHER HAND - if there is something either illegal or immoral, than it is important that anyone who sees the problem do all they can to stop it. I agree with Bob: In many walks of life we carry out instructions we view as distasteful. But no one should be asked to carry out a plan that does not meet the above standards. My father's favorite saying was "All that is necesary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I'm not there, I can't see. But if you feel as though someone is stinking up the place, I'm behind any effort you make to fumigate. Good luck to you. Mark