mk9750

I hadn't seen all of the examples listed here, but I did notice that the host of the "Trading Spaces - Kids" show had on a Cub Scout shirt in one episode. Really supprised me! Mark

Bob, Don't be so hard on yourself! That ONE was funny! Cincinati Chilli? UGHH! Sliders? YABADABADO! Chowder? New England, NOT Manahattan. Best food yet? The first meal a new Scout cooks on his own! Mark

As I have done a few times in the past, I'd like to steal a line form one of our fellow posters: I love this Scouting stuff! Contratualtions to you and to your new Life Scout! Mark

gjensentroop301, I may have been a bit more biting in my statment than I meant to be, but I did mean it. Although I accept that many of us will have different methods to get to the same result, I believe that it is more likely a Scout will benefit from thinking of these issues on his own WITHOUT prior input from me than if I told him how he should think by doing a presentation. After the boy has presented his ideas to me, we spend some time talking about them. This conversation has rarely lasted less than 45 minutes for the first two requirments. I find it both amazing, and spiritually uplifting, to hear the revelations Scouts come to on their own about what a family is, and what their place in their own family is. Just like MaineScouter, I find the most valuable lessons a Scout learns in this badge come from listing 10 reasons they are important to their family. When we first begin to discuss the requirments, I let them know that I view this as both the most important, and the hardest requirment of the badge. In every single case, Scouts have reported to me that the first 6 - 7 reasons come pretty easy, but they spent hours trying to come up with reason 7 through 10. It is this dificulty that I use to bring them to the realization that they are important. Let's face it: Everyone is important to his family becasue of his sense of humor. But how many kids would come up with "I'm important to my family because of my priciples: Without Scouting, there wouldn't be anyone in my family that my younger sister could look up to except my parents!" This was a real answer from the last guy who did the badge with me. And I don't think he would have come up with something like this without having to think of it on his own. Being a MB Counselor is a tremendous job. The influence we have on maturing boys is almost frightening. Even though I may disagree about using a a canned presentation, I am sure that just by asking you are exhibiting the qualities that matter most: Concern and empathy. You'll be fine. Mark

I had a similiar experience to Maine's. When my son crossed, the Troop went from 9 to 20. At that size, the SM spoke about having the critical mass needed to make things happen. We've been as high as 48, and are at 35 now. My personal observations from my experience: 1) I'd have a hard time imagining how we could maintain the program in our Troop without having at least 20 25 members. 2) For every 10 Scouts added, I really believe the Troop goes through a radical change. Every SPL we have had in place when the Troop grew significantly had a very hard time keeping a handle on things. We've considered changing our election cycle to more closely coincide with Webelo crossing, hoping that a new SPL won't feel the difference with a big influx of new guys. 3) We never got to this point, but we were VERY worried about whether we had the skill, ability, and resources to handle much more than our high water mark of 48. Unfortunately, I think we may have subconscientiuosly worked to limit our Troop size, because we had a 6 year run of getting a nice size new class every year to only getting 5 last year and 2 this year. I suspect that we might have given signals that we didn't think we could handle more guys to new Webelos and their parents. We did all of the same recruiting activities that had been successful before, with @ the same number of Webelos, but weren't as successful. With the exception of one very large Den last year, who was never going to cross to our Troop, almost none of the Webelos we lost joined other Troops. I think we've gotten a bit of a wake up call, and are back on the hunt for new guys for next spring. 4) As mentioned, recruit adult leaders along with the boys you recruit. 5) Work just as hard to keep your Scouts, especially older Scouts, as you do recruiting new ones. Quality program, chosen by the Scouts, goes a long way toward keeping the older guys in. Even when other priorities begin to surface (school, sports, jobs, cars and girls), boys will make time for a Scouting program that provides them oppurtunities to do things they can't do elsewhere. Best of luck to you! Mark

My dad's from PA... Just outside of Uniontown, Brownsville. I'm only aware of one brother, who lives down in Dayton. And he's not the kind of guy who would be involved in Scouting. I doubt OGE is him. But, you'll never hear me complain if I get called OGE's long lost brother! Mark

Sorry Bob. I missed it in an earlier post, but it caught my eye in yours. I hope no offense was taken. I do understand what you're saying, I just think that you're off base. As you say, words have meanings, and I for one am constantly preaching this. But "my" in this case has two legitimate, reasonable interpretations. the majority of posters here seem to be able to make the distinction between the two, and mean the more positive one when they say "my". Certainly, a few can't (or at least can't convince others that) they do understand). I disagree with them a vehemently as do you. But for those of us who use the phrase diferently than your interpretation, I think your suggestion that we could improve is off base. I have acknowledged my level of training, and it is inferior to most here. But in no way do I believe I have any other role in my Troop but service. That doesn't preclude me from accurately identifying my association with it by say it is "my Troop". Again, I don't believe you're wrong. I just think your seeing this from far too narrow a perspective. Mark

TwoCub, What a terrific timeline explaination for most of these threads! It is so accurate, I disturbed someone else laughing while I read it! If I can try to rephrase Eagle74's post so that my pea brain can understand it: The style of leadership imployed depends on the circumstance. If the person to be lead has no need to be taught, coached or convinced that the leader should be the leader, or that that task must be done, directing can be an expediant way of accomplishing the task. If the person to be led doesn't know how to complete a task, doesn't want to do it, doesn't understand the reson behind it, or doesn't accept the authority (I'd like to have used a different word here), then one of the other styles of leadership is better. In any of these cases, Directing may still be the expediant way to accomplish the task, but there is no value other than task completion. If I have this right, I agree 1000%. Mark

Can't wait to see it! Congratulations to your Troop! And I think you seem rightfully proud of your son for making the decision he did. Congratulations to him, and to you for being such an influence to him. Young Spiked Eagle? If you'll allow me some personal opinion, you need to influence him just a shade more (LOL!) Mark

Bob, I've got to tell you I think you missed this one. Not that you're wrong, but that you're not seeing the issue from all sides. As has been pointed out by many, speaking of a Troop (or any number of other examples used) COULD mean that the speaker believes he owns the Troop (or any number...). but he legitimately could be indicating simple association with that Troop. Surely, saying "my Troop" is not as clear as "the Troop with which I am associated", but it isn't incorrect, and it is much shorter. You have said a few times that I am one of the people on this forum that "get it", and I am flattered that you feel that way. If that is a given, I think I have demonstrated that although I say "my Troop" quite often, I don't say it with negetive connotations attached. And If I can use that phrase without indicating I feel a sense of ownership of the Troop, I'm sure most of the others here can, too. I'll use one more anology. I often refer to this forum when I speak of it to other Scouters as "my Scouter forum". I can assure you I don't feel as though I own it now, nor do I believe I will ever feel that way. I am honored to be associated with it, just like my Troop. But I know my place - as a long winded poster, and nothing more. Your comment about using "our" instead of "my" seems to make sense, except that it doesn't do enough to identify who "our" is. From the standpoint of accurately refecting the intend of the speaker, I don't think it is a wise use of the vocabulary available. OGE, I've metioned to you before how remarkably similiar or lives are. We've PM'd each other a couple of times talking about it. You want to know the next amazing coincidence? My wife is an MRI tech. X-Ray tech for 15 years, then when an MRI unit went in, she asked to be trained. Had the same kind of experience you describe: The Radiologists all fought here moving to MRI because no one did X-Rays as well as she, especially G.I. exams. Seems she had a knack for Barium. Eventually, she did move, and now all the Radiologists get ticked when she isn't the tech who did the image they are reading. It is frightening to think of all of the parallels you and I have discovered about each other! Mark

Bob, Do you have any details as to the when or where? We have been trying to bring this to our Troop (the Troop that I serve), but the closest we can find it is 175 miles away. Any help anyone can provide will be VERY apreciated! Mark

gjensentroop301, Are you a Scout working on Family Life, or a MB Counselor? As a Counselor, I'm having a hard time figuring out why a Counselor would need to do a presentation. And I also am having a tough time seeing why a Scout would need resources like you describe. And any resources you may find would defeat one of the values of doing these two requirements: Contemplating what a family is and how you fit into it. No canned information can lead a Scout to those answers for his family. If I am misunderstanding, let me know. Mark

OGE, I presume your question is directed at those who continually refer to the Troop with which they are affiliated as "my Troop". If so, I'd like to make two comments. "My" when used like this, can denote ownership, or affiliation. "My company" could be spoken by the person who owns the business, or by the employees who have a sense of belonging to the company. Both are very appropriate. Also, typing "my" is easier than typing "the Troop with which I am affiliated". I think that even for the most objectionalble people in this forum, most use "my" without trying to infer they own or run the Troop. Mark

Pack, I agree that hazing should not be permitted. My difficulty is in how we define hazing. Sending a kid on a snipe hunt is not hazing. Making him stay all night without shelter is hazing. A joke or two at his expense might not be hazing. Making him feel worthless is hazing. Sending his undies up a flagpole is not hazing. Leaving them there all day and making him go without is hazing. Reminding a boy to be responsible by singing is not hazing. Embarassing the boy to the point of losing self esteem is hazing. Obviously, in my scenerio, there is a major flaw: Where is the line? Is it closer to simply making the boy sing, or is it closer to the loss of self esteem? Obviously, it depends on each boy. And because the target moves, it's vital that adults monitor the situation, and err on the side of caution. Sometimes, no amount of fun is safe. And the adult must enforce that if the boys can't differentiate. That would make the easy thing to be that we define all such actrivites as hazing. That's the easy thing to do. But if there is value in some of these activities, and I believe there can be, then we should not lump them all together and disallow them. IMVHO. Mark

Victim defined harassment is one of those slippery slope issues, to me. I agree that to some degree, perception is reality. If the victim feels they were harassed, they were harassed. But this has led to a number of very negative changes in our world, including going too far with the right of victims to claim harassment for things that were really meant to be harmless. I'm not saying that where we have gone is wrong, but I think we may have just gone a little too far. On the other hand, we do need to consider what value some of these things have for Scouts. I have been witness to, even condoned, some of the pranks listed here (shorts up the flagpole, singing for lost items), and feel very comfortable that they promote imprtant aspects of the program. In our case, the skivvies going up the pole was actually done by younger Scouts to the older Scouts, and the entire week of back and forth promoted a comraderie among all of the guys, across all age groups, that was well worth the risk of embarassment. We ask Scouts to sing for lost items to help them become responsible for the equipment. Heck, we have a couple of kids who complain when they AREN'T asked to sing for their stuff! We had one boy who was obviously too shy to sing, and the SPL recognized it right away and told the PL who had the boy's stuff to hand it over as an early Christmas present (boys actually CAN recognize when someone is about to be harmed!). My point is that it obviously is wrong to put boys in a position that they could be harmed seriously by a prank. But if done with the right intentions, and monitored to prevent going to far, I think they are important components to a program. OGE, I don't believe you are wrong to feel as you do, but I do think legetimately bad things that happened to you as a youth make you over sensitive to the issue. But that doesn't mean I'd prefer you didn't object: Quite the contrary, who helps us identify when we have crossed the line if someone who has lived the experience isn't permitted to point it out? And lastly, I think that it is very hard to find an instance where the kind of pranks listed above are appropriate for adults to pull on kids. I'm not saying impossible, but tough to imagine. As one poster pointed out, the results of some of these pranks often can be making a trusting boy who desires to please feel distrust and contempt for those who would ask him to do something in the future. I'd rather encourage the boy to continue being that kind of guy, than to risk him changing his attitude. Mark

Not only that, but if the Scouts structure things properly, I would consider giving them credit for the appropriate rank advancements for cooking. Good luck. We've tried a couple of times to do cooperative campouts with Girl Scout Troops, and can't seem to make it happen. Everyone talks like they want to try, but when it comes to planning, our guys keep coming back complaining that the girls don't want to do anything they find fun. We've offered to climb and rapel, kayak, or backpack, and all they want to do is sit around the campsite (this is the report we get back from the planning committee who meet with the girls). We very much would like to try to do something like this. If you are part of a GS Troop of girls 13 - 17, and are from northeastern Ohio, please let me know. Mark

Mines not all that creative. MK are my initials, 9750 is my street address. In someplaces on the web, I am golfermark76, the 76 being my low 18 hole score. If I buy anything from you on ebay, please give me a discount! Mark

Andrew, Boy, am I embarassed! As many times as I have repeated and reflected on the Scout Law, for me to miss that was silly. Thank you for pointing it out. NJ, I wholehaertedly agree. Assuming we are close in age, back when we were kids, a boy like this would have either been removed, or "the boys would have taken care of the problem themselves", meaning the kid would have been ridculed or worse into either leaving or conforming. I think we all would agree that that isn't the best way to handle it, although even I sometimes wish... I certainly did not mean to suggest that the boy whose behavior is unacceptable should be permitted to continue being antisocial. And believe me, I'm not a big one for "Let's all sing KumByAh and hope everything will be all right. However, I think it is important to utilize the oppurtunities we get to teach life leassons to these guys. And this IS an important one for all. Friendly - I think I will make a big effort to work on the fourth point of the Scout Law tomorrow. Mark

I want to talk only about my situation, because I'm not sure how relevant it may be to others. But I am the Adv. Chair in our Troop. Five years ago, if you were to rate my effectiveness on a scale from 1 to 100, it would have been 96. Everything was perfect, save for those very rare times when I, or someone else acted human. Today, if you rated my effectiveness, it would be like 60. What's the difference? Our Service Center moved from directly between my home and work, to about 45 miles away. I was used to the convenience I had to drop stuff off, and if there were any descrepancies, getting them fixed the next meeting and dropping them off again. That luxury doesn't exist now, and even after five years, I haven't made the adjustment. I blame no one but myself, but the move is the reason. My point is that it may be helpful to try to find the root cause of the problem and see if that can be fixed, or accomodated. It might not be the advancement chair, it might be a situation that can be resolved creatively if you know the real reason for the problem. Mark

NJ, I did feel a little rumble in my seat when I read your post. Oh, I'm sorry, that was gas...(lol) Mark

I think that, of course, having the boys make that decision is the best choice. However, I think it needs to be preceeded by the oppurtunity to teach all of the guys in the Patrol a life lesson. My dad had a cliche' for everything, and the one that fits here is "It takes all kinds to make a world". Somewhere along the path to manhood, these guys are going to have to learn that finding a way to getting along with everyone is an important life skill. It would be beautiful if they could learn to like this guy, and I'll bet eventually they will. But it isn't vital. They just have to be shown that in most any situation, they will be required to deal with people they don't particularly like. "Freindly" isn't a part of the Scout Law, but Courteous and Kind are, as well as Cheerful. If you can impart that leasson on these guys, then you have done your Good Turn for the day, and supported one of the Aims of Scouting. Good luck. I know it isn't easy. Every Troop has a guy or two like you describe, whether he has been diagnosed with ADHD or not. But the percentage of Scouts that are like this is not much different than the percentage of people these boys will meet in every day life. Learning to deal with them appropriately now will go a long way in their futures. Mark

I think I have recounted this before, but one of the top three or four memories I will take from my Scouting career is the the scene where one of our Scouts, with Down's Syndrome, finally kind of broke away from dad for a while at summer camp to sit around the campfire with just the guys (no adults). they were doing a type of "whose like is it anyway" thing, and this kid was having a blast, and the other guys were really having fun with him (positively). Dad wandered over when he realized his son wasn't in his tent, only to have the boy tell dad to "go away, I'm having too much fun!" After he said it, he must have realized he'd never spoken up to dad like that before, because he got a little scared. Dad thought it was the greatest thing in the world: His son, who always needed someone there to help, showing a little independence. To steal a line from one of my favorite posters, "Man, I love this Scouting stuff!" Dave, I'll bet that even though most of your freinds and aquantences don't know what your affliction has been named, they recognize that you struggle with it none the less, and I'll be ttheir admiration for you is high because of it. I know that I am proud to know you. I bet they REALLY feel proud to know you. Mark

Hey, HEy, HEY! Keep it down about COs being able to limit membership to their own group! Our IH has complained loudly for three or four years that only 35% of our Troop are members of our Parish. If he knew he could limit our membership to only Parishoners, we'd get almost no one to cross over, as we have been horrendously unsuccesful recruiting boys from within the Parish Cub Program. We have tried and tried to help them, but the Parish School kids just will not leave Scouts in their school alone without picking on them unmercifully. In my 8 years with this Troop, 3 kids who went to the Parish School crossed over, and only one has stayed more than a year. The only way we get kids who belong to the Parish in our Troop is if the public school kids who belong to other Packs happen to be in our Parish. Tthe problem is that our program needs a certain amount of inertia in the form of new Scouts or we will die quickly. The "see one, do one, teach one" method we use only works if there are people who still need to see one, and therefore people who need to be taught. Mark

We also have such a meeting. In our Troop, it's called a tavern meeting, becuase we sit around our SM's nicley appointed rec room bar when we do this. We have the SM, the ASMs, me (advancement chair), and often the SPL ans ASPL. It is at this meeting that the Scoutmaster corps and the youth leadership determine what issues they need to bring to the adult committee. Thanks for your kind words. Mark

Ah, personal crusades! Mine is men wearing hats indoors. In our Troop, I am the hat nazi, without any doubt. It obviously isn't an important manner any longer, but that doesn't matter to me. I have been calling Scout's name as they come in the door and pointing to their head for 8 years now. I'm starting to get through, but every new class of Scouts need the same reminder for about a year before it's habit. The most difficult time I have with this is two ASMs who are folicly challenged, and refuse to set a good example. But I keep trying! you'll never go wrong teaching manners and respect to youth. It will pay off. I am certain of this. Mark