mk9750

Yeah, that's kind of how I was thinking. I'm sure it's got to be tough in that environment to get role models, to find money, etc. But I wouldn't have thought that the program itself changes. But I want to keep an open mind, so I'm going to wait for Ed, or any one else who has experience working specifically in that setting, to set me straight. Mark

There once was a man who was in a horrible train accident. He had to have his entire left side amputated. He's all right now. Everything I do physically is left handed except mouse. Everything I do mentally is right. And don't forget it! OGE, I'm kind of disappointed. This is probably the first thing we've not had in common! Fun facts: There is a higher percentage of left handers in MENSA than right handers. In that I was born in Feb., I take pride in the fact that there is a higher percentage of Feb. birthdays in MENSA than any other month. Doesn't mean I'm in MENSA, but if I'm a left hander born in Feb., maybe I should be? Mark

Ed, I've lived in comfortable suburbia all my life, so I truly am ignorant here. Is there a difference between my Scouting experience and the urban Scouting experience? I'm not trying to be flip here, I'm serious. From my perspective, I can't imagine much of a difference. But I've got a very one - sided perspective. I'll agree that Scouting may be more difficult in the city, although that I don't even know for sure, because I've never tried to do it. But I'm struggling to see how it would be different. Mark

KS, Again, I wasn't clear enough to be understood. If the boys set this up on their own, with no Troop involvement at all, I don't see it as a Scout activity. Saying it isn't allowed to be done by Scouts is like saying they can't go 4 wheeling. Of course they can't as a Scout activity. But if a group of people get together to do so, there isn't anything wrong with it. Just because a kid's friends happen to all be Scouts doesn't mean they can't do something the Scouts saay is illegal. In your scenario, I agree with you. Allowing the announcement to be made at a meeting is easily identifiable to me as the Troop aiding the activity planning, and I think there would be a problem with that. Mark

The only MBs we have any luck at all doing en masse are Rifle and Shotgun, and then only the demonstration of the parts of a rifle and rifle safety. This is basically a canned NRA presentation expanded to about four times their depth because we don't think that their safety program is detailed enough (interestingly, we find the BSA's program even LESS detailed). After this demo, all requirments are done individually. We've tried to do many MBs in groups, in and out of Troop meetings. We can't make them work. My suspicion has always been that that's why BSA discourages the idea: It doesn't work. Now, except for the two field sports above, the closest you'll ever see us get to doing a MB at a meeting is when a Patrol has expressed an interest in doing an outing designed to work on a MB. Then, the Counselor spends 10 minutes or so explaining to the group his expectations for completion of the badge. One time as a favor to a Scout from another Troop, I agreed to work on either Communications or Personal Management with him and his buddy at the same time. This became a disaster, as I never was confident that either completed the requirements on their own. Now, if I agree to work with someone like that, I seperate them and work individually. Mark

Boy Scouts do plenty of activities, in and out of Scouting. Some of these, they do with all of their friends, some they do with just their Scouting buddies. Our guys do laser tag and paint ball on a semi regular basis. Most of the time, it is with a mixed bunch of Scouts and non Scouts. Sometimes, it's just Scouts that go. But as these are unauthorized activities, when they do them, they are NEVER Scout events. I think if they are defined specifically as non Scouting, and everyone understands it that way, you should have no problem. I'd guess you might run into trouble though if you had a Tour Permit (obviously it wouldn't list laser tag), if you specifically arranged for two deep leadership (especially if the SM were there), or if the boys wore uniforms. I think you'd have a tough time convincing anyone that this was a non Scout activity. Mark

NJ, Your post hit home a little with me. Before the summer camp we do in PA, we also have a meeting with each of the Scouts to arrange a schedule for completing the badges on which they want to work. I spend some time counseling each Scout on what seems an appropriate badge, so that 11 year olds aren't working on lifesaving without having swimming, and 15 year olds challenge themselves with badges tougher than Basketry. But the real reason for this meeting is so I can write out blue cards for the guys to take to camp. this saves time for everyone at camp (actually, now the Scribe does this). But during this meeting, I'll bet that I come off sounding as if I want guys to work on multiple badges. I encourage (actually, it is stronger than that) young guys to use Trail to 1st Class (your Dan Beard program), but somehow that always seems to fall by the wayside. I suspect that's because we will not sign a requirment off just because he went to class, we want him to come back and demonstrate what he learned first. When they hear that, I think they tend to steer themselves toward things they get more instant gratification for: MBs. My point is that I think even people who diagree with the MB mill concept might work to enable it. I think in at least one way, I have done so. Now, what to do about it? I think the first thing is to voice your opinion about weak MB programs to your Council representatives. If they don't want to respond, vote with your feet. We did this about 12 years ago. Our local summer camp program was horrendous. After complaining vociferously for two years, our SM investigated other options and the Troop chose the alternate camp schedule we have now. Both are out of Council, and our Council is well aware of our reasons for not going to our own summer camp. They have improved the program over several years, and have asked us to send a contingent next year for a few days to check out the improvement. If the program they offer is better, we may move back there every other year. But it took being away for 12 years, along with other Troops doing the same thing, for them to realize they needed to improve. Mark

OXCOPS, Welcome back! I like the idea that you're actually planning how to go about this, rather than going at it half baked. You're already halfway to success! I like the idea of involving a college marketing class. I think that sounds like win - win. My only criticism is the initial mailing. Although less expensive than the other tiers, it is VERY expensive per response for the results you'll get. You could probably reduce the cost per hit by having the marketing class do some target marketing to limit who gets your mailing to those who, for instance, are known to spend money on team building events. Good luck! Mark

This is especially for Bob, but I'd sure like to hear other's comments as well. Eamonn's description of advancement dominating some Troops' program is true, I am sure. But I don't think it is all Troops. I think plenty of Troops keep advancement in it's place: one of the Methods to attain the Aims of Scouting. But I do believe that for a very large majority of Troops the Merit Badge mill at summer camp is accurate. I say this knowing that this is accurate even for my Troop at least every other year. So a few questions: Is hunting Merit Badges at summer camp wrong? Is it still wrong if some controls are set up to assure that boys are meeting the intended requirments? If such a heavy concentration on Merit Badges is wrong, than what should / would / could replace the time that is now spent at summer camp, especially for boys who are 1st Class and higher? As I have mentioned in the past, we alternate summer camps every year between a camp in PA that is highly MB oriented and a camp in Canada at which we develop and execute our own program, consisting of only 4 or five MB offerings. The rest is fun stuff and relaxation. Both of these seem valuable to me. I love the fact that in Canada, our guys can spend one, two, three hours a day working on a MB if they want, instead of running from one class to another. I love that they play games and share in the comraderie of their buddies. I love that they spend time alone to contemplate all of those things that teenagers do. But I also think it is a great oppurtunity for these same guys to go to PA and have the chance to work on 3 or 4 or even 5 MBs at summer camp. They can do this because they aren't distracted by having to cook, because Aquatics is only 3 minutes from Pioneering, and because the camp has recruited and developed MB Counselors for 35 badges, instead of the 5 or 6 we can bring to camp. So again, my questions are is this really wrong, and what would change if we decided to change it? Mark

Bob, Say it ain't so! You weren't perfect? Git outta here! (Please note the tongue wedged with great pain deeply in the cheek.) Mark

We treat JASMs as something between SPL Emeritus and Assistant Scoutmasters when we have them. We don't always fill the position, but when we do, that person (or people) is responsible for all Troop level boy traing. They do Troop JLT, Den Chief training, and they are responsible for following up to make sure boys who have been given presentation assignments are on schedule, and assist them if they need help. I don't think we do this intentionally, but all of our past JASMs have been 17 years old. Coincidence? I'm not sure. Mark

Laura, I think you've got it right. Now all you need is half the committee to agree with you, and regardless what the icon says, you can make the program work. Keep working on the folks on the committee. Either get them trained, or unofficially "train" them yourself. Almost all of the program, when described properly and supported with the "why" makes sense. People of intelligence will understand if you lead them there. Good luck! Mark

We have had two boys who over the course of two or three years, just could not get themselves elected or appointed to POS. I don't mean to sound judgemental, but it was understandable. The SM used this option to provide an oppurtunity for both boys to advance. They were both given younger boys who were struggling to advance, and were basically appointed to be individual Troop guides for these younger Scouts, guiding them to advancement. One had to get a kid from just short of Tenderfoot to 2nd class in order to make Star, and the other had to get a kid who had been stuck on Tenderfoot a long time to 1st class. This second one was the subject of my piece in the 4 styles of leadership thread. The older Scout fulfilled this requirement for his POS for Eagle Scout. I have mixed emotions as to whether the use of this option is good or not. I know in both of these guys' cases, they were never going to be elected or appointed, and I know that they showed a tremedous amount of leadership to accomplish what they did. If all instances were like these, I'd say OK. But FOG's example certainly exhibits the other side of the coin, and I'd have a tough time accepting it. sidebar - During the most heated (ugliest) of the spears and arrows being chucked at Bob White, I made a conscious decision to ignore Fat Old Guy as a rude, overbearing creature who was not participating in this forum in the way I think we are expected. But I have been paying attention to his posts over the last few weeks, and noticed a decided shift in his demeanor. Even when I have disagreed with him, he has expressed his opinion with relative politeness, and I think he should be congratulated for being more civil. I am sure my approval means nothing to you, FOG, but I'd like you to know I am coming to appreciate you being here more and more. I suspect you're differences with Bob will never go away, but as long as you act like you have been, like Ed has acted even though he and Bob disagree adamantly, I'd like to be able to reverse my treatment of you. I hope you'll accept. Mark

Rooster, Although I suspect you're right about parents not being too keen on th idea, (and everyone please try to take this the right way) we don't care. It's a great idea, the boys had it, and I think there is a whole heck of a lot of reason to do it to support the Aims. If they decided they want to do it, it's valuable, and it's done within some framework so that it remains civil, it's going to happen. Parents can decide to keep their kids home that night if they want them to miss a great educational event. We don't much care. I was the one who suggested to them that they include a debate teacher. I'm even hoping that we can contact one to teach them real debate format and technique (it's been a long time since high school debate class for me!). We will certainly insist this is done properly: Define the one or two central issues to be discussed, limit presentations in time and in scope to facts only and their effects, provide time for a rebuttal of the facts, and that is it. My vision, although I won't have the final say, is that the guys take up saides on the issues and work as a team to research. Those who really don't have any idea will likely side with their friends, or remain neutral, and could be used to gage effectiveness at the end. I haven't been this excited about something our boys want to do in three years! I have also promised to do some research to see what requirments for Merit Badges the participants could cover. I certainly believe at least one or two for communications would be appropriate. Mark

After thinking about it, I worry all I've done here is create open season for each side of the "aisle" in our little campfire to take pot shots at each other. I hope we can refrain from that. This was not intended to move the debate over which party is better to this forum. I'd love to leave it in our kid's hands. Mark

It never ceases to amaze me what this program provides our boys. After the monthly PLC on Tuesday, one of the boys was assigned to sending an e mail and following it up phone calls to advise everyone in the Troop that Troop elections were scheduled for the last meeting in Sept. At the bottom of his e mail, he added a blurb about thanking a Democrat if we saw one for a whole litany of things that this boy found wonderful about Democrats. One of the other boys responded with all of the things that are bad about Demograts, and all of the great things about Republicans. It went back and forth a few times. It was very entertaining, and us adults were very impressed with both the breadth and depth of the knowledge of topics being kicked back and forth. Last night, a couple key members of the PLC were shopping for an event this week, and they were entertaining themselves talking about the verbal volleyball going on. All of a sudden, it seemed like the lightbulb went on in their heads at the same time: "Let's have a debate!" We talked about it for a while last night, and they pretty much decided on the spot that they were going to use one Troop meeting night, just before November elections, to debate the good and bad points of the Ds, the Rs, and the value of the two party system. They want to bring in a debate teacher from the local college to mderate and or judge, and they have talked about having some representatives from each of the parties invited, too. We have a bit of a tie to our U.S. Representative, and they are hoping they might get him. This is a huge generalization, but it seems so obvious that much of the youth in society is very one dimensional, and not very interested in topics like politics. I am convinced that Scouting provides so many opportunities for teenage boys to take an interest in things beyond Nintendo and sports, and this is one example. I've since found out that this debate, that I just now was exposed to, actually started in July during a trip to Washington D.C. I guess it started in a motel shuttle van, with two elderly ladies in with some of our Scouts. They pulled the SM aside after everyone piled out of the van and told him that they learned more in a 15 minute van ride than they figured they would learn in a four day trip to D.C. They were hugely impressed, as I understand. We have a couple of very passionate Democrats in our midst, and at least one arch conservative. If this comes off like I think it will, it's going to be VERY interesting, VERY informative, and VERY valuable. Thank you Scouting! Mark

Rooster, If I indicated my son thought the money was tacky, or that he didn't appreciate it, I'm sorry. That wasn't what I meant. I was very proud of his reaction: Appreciation and a sense of humility. I was the one who thought that giving money was not in the spirit of the event, which I phrased as tacky. Hopefully, you'll let me get away without explaining my reasons for feeling this way, because I don't think I have any reasons. It's just the way I feel about it. Mark

Sorry NJ, but I have to disagree. There IS value in teaching boys how to cook using a recipe and not premade ingredients. There IS value in teaching the proper uses for even those things that can become evil (and there is a place for it in Scouting). There IS value in using the oppurtunity to discuss how the difference of opinion between the SM and the campmaster could have been resolved better (I'm not suggesting that we should bring alchohol just to provide a reason for these two guys to argue!). And lastly, I don't think there is much difference whether the bottle was cooking sherry or Southern Comfort (I use Southern Comfort as part of the hot sauce I make when I make chicken wings, although I've never made them at a BS camp). If alchohol intended for cooking is wrong, it's wrong. I'm not so sure I think it is. Perhaps we may be wiser if the adults controlled the bottle, to prevent mischeviousness, but even if we didn't, I am VERY confident that if there was a full bottle of drinkable liquor in our campsite, and all knew it was intended for cooking, it could sit in plan view of all, and still be full (less what was used for cooking) by the end of the campout. This is a credit to the parents of our Scouts who have done a fine job raising great kids, AND to our Troop that supplements the parents by also teaching right from wrong. And if I am right, there is positive value in bringing the bottle, if for no other reason than to provide an oppurtunity to prove to the Scouts how great they are. Sorry, I got interupted three times typing this, so it might seem rambling (I mean more than most of my posts). I hope you decipher what I meant. Mark

Here's what my oldest son did in the same circumstance, although you've got to be careful, because there's a fine line: It became very apparent to our oldest son, the SM and I that my younger son felt "overshadowed" by his older brother, the SPL, the guy closing in on Eagle, the "star" of the venture Patrol outings. We all agreed that the younger son needed to find something that he could "star" in. Both were taking kayaking through the American Red Cross in preparation for a spring outing. My oldest son arranged to have to work the weekend of the planned outing, leaving his younger brother as the only family member there. The young guy had shown a great aptitude for kayaking, and by the end of the weekend, was considered by all who went as the "star" kayaker, even by the guys from the ARC who helped with the event. Ever since then, my younger son makes a point to seperate himself from the older: Older didn't earn shootgun MB, younger did. Older was Eagle Scout at 17, younger insists he's going to do it before he turns 16. Older only served 6 months as SPL, younger says he's going to serve for a full year, and do it better. This competition has remained healthy, not negative, mostly because the older son treats it well. "If you think you can get to Eagle by 16, go for! It's tougher than you think!" rather than "there's no way! I'm a better Scout than you'll ever be!" But the whole thing was set up by the older son recognizing that until the younger guy got out of the older one's shadow, he was always going to try to make things harder for his older brother. hope this helps. Good luck!

In the past, core adult leaders in our Troop presented the new Eagle with something special. One of our ASMs is a tremendous wood carver and wood burner, and he has gotten in the habit of wood burning canoe paddles for each Eagle Scout that are just unbelievably beautiful. I usually give each new Eagle Scout a Good Turn Coin. Our SM usually identifies one trait or experience that stands out in his mind about the Scout's career and makes a presentation of something related to that. The 1st Eagle COH I attended was for a boy who, on the SM's first campout, brought along a lounge chair. This happened for the first few campouts, until the SM had enough and flung the chair deep in the woods. It was a memory that was discussed over many campfires. The SM presented the new Eagle with a new, very cheap, folding chair. Also, each Patrol in our Troop gets together and presents a gift, usually an Eagle stutue (although lately swords have become popular!). I was under the impression that this was the extent of the giving that happened at Eagle COHs until my son made Eagle. I never figured anyone did anything more than come, celebrate, and bring a pot luck dish for the social. When my son got home from his, he started opening envelopes and counting money. I think he received over $400.00! I was shocked! I've nver considered giving money for an Eagle award, and still see it is tacky. On a positive note, he also received a few actual gifts in addition to his canoe paddle, and an engraved spatula from the SM (long story). One was a hand embroidered throw with a picture of an Eagle and his name and the date of his COH. He got this from the Den Leader of the den he was a Den Chief for. It is beautiful, and his appreciation for it was deep and sincere. After all this, my suggestion is to certainly give a card, without money. But if you can make a gift of something meaningful absolutely do so. I was thinking about it. If there was a way to take a small group of rocks form his project and make a small sculpture from it, he might appreciate that. Mark ps - How generous and thoughtful of your mother (and I'll bet you, too) to direct contributions in memory of your dad to Scouting, and specifically to an Eagle project. You must have some mom! mk

Ed, You're right, it was your post that prompted the memory. It's obviously not been a pressing issue for a year, so it really isn't a big deal now. Just thought I'd ask since I was thinking about it. Mark

Thanks, great reply. I hesitated asking anyone from Council, figuring I might be stepping on someone's toe. I was particularly glad to see a couple of sugestions that included the potential Den Chief's participation. I have a real aversion to doing presentations that involve all lecture, but I had almost no ideas myself for trying to make this more hands on. The time frame that your ideas need might be longer than I have been given, but that may just mean I have to ask for more time. but in the meantime, any other ideas, anyone? Thanks so much. Mark

And again, great responses show me I've left a few points unclear. It was the campmaster who had the problem with the sherry being at his camp (there's an endorsement for disallowing possesive words in Scouting!). This happened over a year ago, and although we didn't make it a big issue, none of our parents had any complaints. One commented that they were suprised that the adults don't bring a bottle of wine to share with some of the gourmet meals the boys prepare. It is the practice of the boys in our Troop to make things "from scratch" at the campsite. If a meal of this magnitude was planned, and a Scout brought premade sauce, he'd never hear the end of it (well, that's an exageration, but I think you know what I mean). It is a real badge of honor for our boys to make everything at camp. If they were going to bring premade sauce, it would be Prego. I understand the opinion of one poster who thought the reaction of the mom was a bit strong. It isn't unusual though, that someone defends their recipe vehemently. I recall when my son was doing cooking MB, he was making a lunch that included a baked potato soup that his mom gave him. It really is fantastic. Tastes just like a real baked potato. The SM wandered under the dining fly and sampled the soup. He came over and mentioned to me that it tasted burned, and that if it were him, he would add more salt. It being my wife's recipe, I was indignant. I said "It's supposed to taste a little burnt. That's the "Baked" part of the soup. And if it were me, I'd keep my nose out of other people's recipes!" After lunch, I mentioned the conversation to my son. His reaction? "Oh my gosh, I forgot the salt!" Needless to say, I was a tad embarassed. Mark

Does anyone have material they would be willing to share covering Den Chief Training? We had an adult who was going to do a Troop version of this (our Council's DC training never seems to coincide with our need to train Den Chiefs in the late summer / early fall). but she has unfortunately let us down and I have been asked to do this training. I only have 8 days to prepare. I could probably come up with something from my experience as a Den Leader, but I'd rather use real information than stuff I make up. Our Council office just confirmed that they either never had, or no longer have, video training on this topic. I've printed a number of good helps from sites I was able to find doing a Google search, but I am hoping someone has all of the material put together in a handy presentation. Please let me know if you can help. THANK YOU (ans I meant to scream that!). Mark

In another thread, mention was made of marinading in wine. It reminded me of a bit of a controversy our Troop found itself in a few years ago. We tend to cook in one of two manners: Very simple (hot dogs on a stick), or very elaborate (smoked pork roast, veal parmesean). Every elaborate meal our guys cook comes from either our Troop cookbook, or from a recipe they bring from home (which, once a year, we vote whether to add to the Troop cookbook). For one campout, one Scout brought a recipe for a meat based Spagetti sauce that included cooking sherry. While packing for camp, the Quartermaster noticed it and commented. The boy's mom said it was an intergral part of the recipe, and that if it couldn't go in, there was no sense in making the recipe. The SM agreed to let it go. At camp, the campmaster strolled through camp while dinner was being prepared. He spotted the sherry, and a very heated debate ensued between he and the SM, ending just short of us being thrown out of camp. I think we all know that alchohol is not permitted. And we have become more vigilant about monitoring ingredients before we leave for a campout. but under the circumstances as described, what is everyone's opinion? By the way, the sauce was VERY good, although I'm not so sure I could tell one way or the other that sherry was in there. Mark