Mike F

Our SM was just directed by our Committee Chairman to sign off on a 1st Class scout's leadership requirement for advancement to Star. The term of office is over but the SM didn't think the scout had come close to meeting expectations and wanted him to further develop and show his skills by accomplishing an additional leadership project. This signature block is the SM's. Can he be forced to sign it against his will? Background: Position - Scribe. Scout has some minor mental disabilities. He was put into his position with consultation of previous SM who departed after new leadership term started. Scout did attend troop JLT and was trained in his position. He also had a written outline of the position description, specific duties, etc. Scout was physically present for most activities, but by his own admission pretty much didn't do anything. One very significant failure that wasn't the boy's fault - he didn't get much (if any) coaching and guidance along the way. (Troop leadership - Scout & Adult - recognizes this and is working to ensure won't happen again. This was one of those myriad details that got missed during somewhat chaotic handover of SM and the boys didn't think of it.) During SM Conference, the SM told Scout that he felt like Scout needed the opportunity to develop his leadership skills a bit more and we would find him some appropriate opportunities. Scout was disappointed, but seemed to agree. SM also explained this to one of Scout's parents in 2-hr conversation after SM Conference. Parents upset - went to Committee Chairman. After some discussion about rationale, the CC finally told the SM he was hereby directed to sign off on the requirement immediately and then to help Scout grow through those additional responsibilities. Either way, the Scout will presumably have met the spirit and intent of Star leadership requirement within a few months of sign-off, so we won't have undermined the foundations of Scouting too much, but it brings up a serious issue and the SM is about to throw his badge into the campfire. Wording in SM and Committee handbooks isn't clear enough about how to handle disputes. CC is basically saying they have the authority to direct, if required, since they selected SM. SM thinks he gets the last call on this since it's his signature in the block. COR isn't in the picture - he works facility and support requests with CO and won't get involved in things like this. SM consulted with District Commissioner (who supported him), but that caused a real eruption in-house. We know we all need to do a better job about preventing this kind of problem from getting to end of term and surprising Scout/parents. Not to mention giving Scout the support he needs to be successful. No arguement - please don't beat us up over that - we blew it, we know it, it won't happen again. Can the SM be directed to sign a requirement he doesn't believe has been met? Thanks in advance for your insights.

Thanks, Dan. I'll verify. -mike

DSteele, We have a family in same circumstances (their church requires them to be registered in their troop). I don't know how they do it, but father and multiple sons are all in our troop and (I've been told by them) do not participate in anything with their church troop. This has been going on for a number of years. Since they're only active in one, there's no issue with advancement requirements getting tangled. So far, so good. Oldest is approaching Eagle -- could something happen to cause him trouble at this point? Thanks in advance!

Here's the link I was looking for (thanks to Eagledad!). http://www.daltonlp.com/scouts/pnames.html It's the best compilation of patrol names on the web -- trust me -- I've looked everywhere. If you back up to the "scouts" page, there's a ton of other VERY good stuff, too! Happy surfing and thanks (again), Barry!! -mike

I saw a couple of great lists on-line a month or so ago, but didn't grab them at the time. After searching with no luck for an hour, I seek your help. Any links to share? Thanks in advance! YIS -mike f

This reply is mostly to LauraT7's last note. You mentioned PL's usually being elected based on popularity. I've seen a TON of something else that I think is even more damaging - who hasn't been PL yet? At least with popularity, the other kids like him and want him to be their leader. When the boys sit in a circle and debate whose turn it is to be "stuck with the job" of PL, it can really go downhill. The others don't really respect and want him as their leader -- they just don't want the job themselves. As for periodic training, a portion of each PLC can be used to present one aspect of leadership. For starters, let's say "communication." Start with some of the stuff you used in the more comprehensive troop JLT, then open it up for discussion -- what is/is not working in their patrols? Kick around some ideas for improvement. What are some guys using that the others haven't thought about? Ideally, the SPL will be the one to lead this effort, make the presentation and lead the discussion. SM and SPL could work together behind the scenes to plan a strategy to address certain topics in the months to come, based on their perception of troop's needs. If necessary, the SM or another skilled trainer could make the info presentation, then back away and let the SPL lead the discussion. (Helping prepare these 5-minute info packages might be one way you could help.) Another way to keep reinforcing leadership is through quick SM Minutes. I recently drafted up one on "Teamwork" for our SM after we had a bit of a meltdown on a campout. He appreciated the help.

This one is new to me too, but there's an important word in the "chapter and verse" from DSteele: CELEBRATION. I would consider modeling it after a regular Eagle ceremony, adapting lines as required. Make it a celebration of the joys and victories the young man had in Scouting. Recognize the difference he made in the lives of others in his too-short time on this Earth. And best to wait -- this is going to be hard on his buddies and leaders, too, but a great life lesson. Our days are numbered, but we know not the tally. My prayers are with Troop 91 and his family, too. Mike F

My two Scouts used to cringe at the BSA stickers on the back of my van -- especially when I was picking them up at school in front of their friends. Then one day I explained to them that Boy Scouts represented some of the finest of America's ideals. Those stickers are my way of publicly saying I share some ideals that won't be swayed by the changing winds of political correctness. No more problems with the van stickers and the boys have recently been "caught" wearing Boy Scout t-shirts to school. The little radicals!!

The guys did GREAT in speaking up! Most of the offenders probably knew it was wrong and were shamed into knocking it off. All it took was for one new guy to speak up. No big deal - no federal case - no screaming and yelling. Just a minor course correction. That's worth more than a dozen hours of mandatory sensitivity training. Brings to mind a favorite quote: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke In addition to doing good, I suspect your son and his friend will have gained confidence from this experience and will be ready to speak up again when it is required.

Beav, You'll be hearing from lots of folks about building relationship with local Packs. Another idea is to encourage Scouts to invite friends - we haven't had a lot join that way, but they have all been really good scouts. Consider having events where guys can bring non-scout friends. Maybe lock-in at Rock Gym or Troop Movie night (watch one of the great movies mentioned in another thread in here somewhere). After they have the opportunity to get to know some of the guys, invite them on a special campout which is open to prospective members. (Make it a good one.) The best way to recruit new boys? Have such a great program that your scouts and parents won't stop talking about it. Good luck! -mike

I appreciated all of your input on this one and thought I'd give an update on how we finally did it. Formed panel consisting of myself, SM, CC and one CM. We met and rank-ordered Adults based on these criteria: 1. Philmont is NOT a father-son activity. Selections will be based on who can best support and enhance the program for the boys. 2. Priority given to adults who have been actively supporting troop high-adventure program. (This did generate some controversy - we have one active young adult with no son in the troop, but he has lots of high-adventure experience and a GREAT attitude.) 3. Level of participation in the troop program, especially the camping program. 4. Fitness level. 5. Attitude 6. Some consideration given to son's age. In other words, will this dad be around for a few more years so he can continue to support the troop program with his experience? With a bit of debate, we formed a list and have rank ordered the adults on waiting list. I called all adults to let them know where they stand. For the first 5 on the waiting list, I told them their position -- they really must to be ready to step in because the likelihood of needing them is high. For the guys lower on the list, I didn't embarrass them by telling them where they lined up and none of them asked. The rank-ordered list will never be posted. I encouraged all of them to come on our shakedown hikes to enjoy the experience and so they'll be ready if they're serious. Later, after we break into our 3 crews, we'll have the Standby folks function as a separate crew so the Philmont-bound ones can get used to working together. So far, so good. Thanks again! -mike

scoutdad, Take another look at the money your troop has sent Philmont. We're going in '04, too, and have only sent $50 per person. Next payment ($212.50 each) is due on 1 Oct (next week). It's possible that your troop was collecting money in small chunks before it was due. If so, the only money actually on the hook right now is the $50 that has already been sent to Philmont, unless they sent the next payment early. Money for first boy - Idea of approaching parents is a good one. Hopefully they'll see the value. Boy can also make money mowing lawns, etc. - my son earned about $400 toward canoe trip this summer. Replacements - get the word out at Roundtable, etc. There are guys out there who will never have another opportunity to go if they don't go with you. Standby List - very important - things come up. We're blessed (sort of) with 8 Scouts and 12 Adults on standby. They're expected to take part in all training activities so they can jump in. SM - good luck...

OGE, Good point. The data for our council came from Tour Permits on file. With over 1500 units, they couldnt consider specific demographics or circumstances. Nor could they judge the high-adventure quotient of a normal summer camps add-on High-A program, so they ignored them all. The 5% number they came up with was quick and dirty, no doubt, but illustrative. This isnt meant to slam anybody especially if theyre in a recovery/rebuilding stage. I just thought it was interesting to note that only 1 out of 20 troops in the Houston area went on a hard-core high adventure trip this year. I would have guessed the number would be closer to 25-30% -- recognizing that some programs are building up, some dont go every year, and some arent interested or dont have the adults to make it happen. Does anybody know if this is a common number at the council level?

Rusty, Sorry I wasn't more clear. I don't think a boy can (or should) belong to two formal patrols. We basically have two different kinds of high adventure activities: 1. Venture Patrol activities (like weekend or Spring Break backpacking trips) that are conducted separate from the rest of the troop. Only Ventures invited. They plan and run these activities just for the older Venture patrol members. (Yes - younger guys want to come along - gives them something to look forward to.) Venture PL (or his delegate) takes the lead for these. Actually, we have 3 Venture Patrols, so Venture ASPL (or his delegate) usually takes lead planning role and the Venture PLs work under him -- just like a troop SPL and PLs when the whole troop involved. 2. Big-ticket trips (Philmont, Boundary Waters) that will include a lot of the Ventures, but are also opened up to include older boys from the regular patrols, if there is room. For the purposes of these trips, we call them "Crews" and they have a "Crew Chief." They do have a lot in common with patrols, but each boy only has one patrol. The crew is made up of boys from different patrols. Crew will have special meetings and activities, but those are scheduled to avoid any conflicts with regular troop and patrol responsibilities. Another smaller troop I work with doesn't have Venture patrols at all, but a few times a year the older boys get together and plan something special for the 14+ guys. Again, not conflicting with, but adding to the regular troop program. Bottom Line: You're right - lots of flexibility - use what works for you. Mark9750 -- Sounds like a great program! -mike

I was hit with a really depressing statistic in our local council last week -- only 5% of the troops in our area participated in a major high adventure activity last summer (2003). This number does not include the optional activities offered at many summer camps (mountain man, outback, etc.) in addition to the merit badge programs. We supported a Council High Adventure Rally on Saturday by setting up a table with slide show and video of our Boundary Waters canoe trip. We had handouts with a summary of how we organized, planned, and conducted our trip. When I counted the leftovers, there were only 45 gone and I'm sure most of those went to other units supporting the rally, not inexperienced ones looking for ideas on how to get started. That's a pretty dismal show of interest in a council with over 1500 troops -- lots of guys missing out on one of the best parts of the program. Are things this bad everywhere? (Somebody please cheer me up!) -mike

Rusty, Sorry to muddy the waters, but you can still operate with all of your older guys as part of the regular patrols and still go do separate high adventure activities. Most of the time the guys work in their regular patrols (weekly meetings, campouts, etc.). The high adventure stuff is worked outside the patrol structure by forming temporary "crews" with a boy "Crew Chief" leader. The guys going on the trip will have some extra meetings to plan and usually some extra activities as "shake downs." Do your best to schedule these so they don't conflict with other troop activities so the guys on crew can continue to support and lead the troop -- they're usually some of your best guys. When they get back from the trip they'll have some exciting tales and new skills to share with the other (mostly younger) guys in the patrol. And you read the SM Handbook exactly right -- a troop "can" have 3 kinds of patrols -- the tiered system is optional. It works well for some, but not for everybody. If your older guys are all really active in high adventure stuff and want to hike 15 miles on a weekend troop campout instead of the 5-miler the rest of the troop is taking (for example), then it probably would be best to split them out into separate Venture patrol(s). If the older guys can satisfy their desire to be around other older guys during outside crew activities and still be happy providing leadership down in the trenches (regular patrols), there are some advantages. Sounds like a great troop program you have going! I'm sure you'll work it out to everyone's best benefit. Keep up the great work!! -mike

LV, After getting down the basics, might try climbing stadium or, better yet, a stair well, so can practice tight turns. And maybe an obstacle course of fallen trees and rocks hidden beneath muddy pools. And don't forget the swarm of mosquitos so can practice one-handed balancing and swatting while maintaining balance on greased rocks. You're absolutely nuts, buddy! I look forward to meeting you someday, even though I'm not sure I could measure up for a crew. Keep 'em coming!!

When our guys get a POR, part of the training includes going over a form specifying what it will take to successfully complete the tour of duty. The Scout reviews the form with the SM and both sign it at the beginning of the term. In essence, its a contract. It includes space for the Scout to write down examples of things he did to meet each requirement. At PLCs and other tag-ups, their progress at meeting the requirements is discussed. Coaching and additional training is applied as required. At the end of the term, the Scout signs the completed form and turns it into the SM at an end-of-tour SM Conference. The Scout has to state whether or not he believes he honestly did his best and met the requirements he agreed to at the beginning. They know for example, it's pretty obvious if he cant write down anything under the block Independent Patrol Activities. When they come up short, its usually not by much and the shortcoming can be made up by completing an additional leadership project (organizing a skill class for 1st years, etc.) that the Scout and SM agree upon. We started using this system about a year ago and its helped a lot. Might be overkill for small-mid sized troops, but it works for us in a very large troop. We have had to completely remove a Scout from office on very rare occasions, but most of the time theyre trying and willing to learn just lack the motivation to put forth the extra effort or get clobbered by school, etc.

SagerScout, Interesting observation! I know what you mean about feeling of energy, but for me that's only for "normal" activities like office work or working around the house. I've never tried it for prolonged heavy physical exertion, like a day (or 10 of 'em) on the trail. A 10-mile run definitely has me dragging worse than normal if low-carb -- I'm extrapolating that experience into assumption about the trail, but could be off target. -mike

I would personally NOT go high-protein during the day while on a trek. The metabolic by-products of turning protein into energy -- what it takes to get over that ridgeline, etc. -- are much harder for the body to handle and lead to early fatigue. Under these conditions, not all calories are equivalent. Carbs and fats are easiest to burn during the exercise. Balanced evening meal restocks the glycogen reserves for next day and rebuilds muscle so you're ready to go again. I've used Atkins a few months before a trip to get down to fighting weight, so I'm familiar with it, but gotta be careful - it's hard on the system. I can really feel the difference while running long distances (5-10 miles). And the difference in running ability is incredible after switching back over to more normal diet -- makes the miles much easier. For weight loss, low-carb/hi-protein works. For optimum performance (i.e., keeping up with the boys), balanced is best.

Trail Pounder - I've used the Western Omlet breakfast recently - sure a lot better than they used to be! Need a little oil, and a Teflon pan will be worth the weight, although in a pinch I've cooked them right in the packet (add water, mix, suspend in pot of boiling water -- it's odd, but it's protein and a lot easier to clean up). Still kinda bland -- a pinch of dried peppers or splash of Tobasco (after cooking) helps a lot. Salt & pepper a must. Good idea to use in the evening! eisely - concur. During the day, heavier on the carbs is the way to go (complex carbs best for slower release). And a handful of simple carbs (sugar) is sometimes just what the doctor ordered to get energy (and spirits) up. Extra protein at night.

Along the lines of "Your favorite comedy movie", which movies would you recommend before departing on an expedition? The night before catching a VERY early airplane to Minneapolis for Boundary Waters canoe trip, we watched "Jeremiah Johnson". The boys groaned at the beginning, but were quoting from the movie throughout the trip. (Considered "Deliverance" - but only for a nanosecond...)

Our cross-over rate is terrible, too, but I don't have the numbers. I've talked to a number of parents and potential scouts, but they feel like they've "already done scouts" or "it's boring." One idea we're trying to get off the ground is to put together a slide show of scouts from the local area in action. Summer camp, high-adventure trips, campouts, etc. This will be composed of pictures from many different troops. Important that they all be local troops. Then we'll take this slide show to Pack Meetings to show the Cubs & Webelos the fun with emphasis that this is all going on right here in our community -- and you can be part of it. Follow up with small teams (from different troops) to visit Webelos 2 dens early in their last year. With the wide-spread use of digital cameras and photos developed on CD-ROM, it hasn't been hard to collect a great bunch of pictures.

packsaddle, Falling out of canoe ain't nuthin' -- you win!

Dan - RE: Weight limits -- at the risk of derailing this thread, I happened to have the official word right here: You're right - weight limits are based on height, with one small exception for youth. For adults (over 21) - will not be allowed on trail if exceed max weight based on height. For youth -- Philmont doctors will assess fitness and may provide an exception of up to 20 lbs on max weight, but still cannot exceed an absolute max of 295 lbs. (This must be discussed with Philmont BEFORE you get there.) (My guess - this is to make allowance for very muscular football players, etc., with consideration to ability to rescue a youth who gets into trouble with ankle, leg, etc.) Note: There's also a minimum weight recommended for each height. They don't harp on it as much, but you can readily see the problem at low end of scale. A 5'0" person below min weight of 97 lbs is going to have a hard time carrying a 35-50 lb pack while staying within pack weight of no more than 25-30% of body weight. If we want to discuss this more, let's please start another thread. Thanks!