Mike F

Eamonn - thanks - we're doing our best.

OGE - you have it right. Parents initially assumed we were discriminating because of the diagnosis. It's our job to determine if his capabilities (and ours) is up to the challenge. Scout does attend a special private school. It's a good idea to have the parents discuss it with the school, but I have to be sure they share the Philmont Risk Assessment so that's factored in. Thanks!

Philmont's words about emotional/psychological problems are not stated as a requirement - they are a warning. Philmont will allow participants with psychological disorders on the trail if the parents, family doctor, and trek leaders all agree that it's OK and they have an adequate supply of medication (if required). Since these situations require observation over a period of time, Philmont is not able to assess during in-processing. They usually only screen for the health threats that endanger your life on the trial - most importantly height/weight and blood pressure. If you're within their limits in these areas and your family doctor has cleared you, you're on the trail. (Incredibly, they reject about 10 people a year who show up and don't meet published requirements.) It remains a subjective decision and the Trek Leader has to honestly answer questions like the following: 1. Do I have enough knowledge and skill to handle this disability? If not, can I get help? 2. Does this participant represent a threat to themselves? Are they self-sufficient enough to be in a wilderness situation with inherent dangers from getting lost, protecting self from hypothermia, violating bear safety measures, etc.? 3. Can this participant function within a crew environment?

NJ, Yes - it says that in Risk Advisory handout for all participants and something similar on the medical form itself. I share your hope that parents will come to the conclusion on their own, but they are very emotional about fighting for their son's right to be included. I understand and would probably be pushing the system myself if I was in their shoes. We'll just have to see how the next shakedowns go. Doctor Dad will be there, so at least he'll see first hand. Taking him to Philmont to assist his son is an option, but not a good one due to health issues of his own. (And we don't really have room for him.)

I'm working an issue concerning how to determine BEFORE a high-adventure trip if someone really doesn't have what it takes to be successful on that particular trek. (Details unimportant, but some in another thread under "Issues and Politics.") There are lots of sources that tell us participants need to be physically capable of the challenge, be able to take care of themselves, and need to function within the crew environment. As trip leaders, it's our job to make sure every person has a reasonable chance of success and sometimes it's a tough call. The questions for any past high-adventure trek leaders: 1. Have you ever allowed a person (scout or advisor) to go on the trip against your better judgment and regretted it? 2. Same question, but the participant surprised you and the trek was a success for all involved? Thanks! -mike

Sorry, BW -- I've finally spoken directly to the Philmont Director of Program. To quote from the letter I'm holding in my hands, "Each group must carefully select participants that are capable of completing an Expedition." Sorry about the confusion about who was doing the excluding - I thought I made that clear when I wrote "...we must make allowances for him under the ADA" and "I could use some guidance on how to exclude." It was because we have raised the specter of excluding this scout that caused the parents to start making what we understood to be a legal threat. Per my discussion with the Director today, they expect the unit (or Council) trek leaders to screen out any participants that are not capable (in our assessment) of completing an expedition before they get to Philmont. Unfortunately, as the Trek Leader, there IS a need for me to place myself in the middle of this situation - it comes with the job. I'm not guessing about his abilities (physical and social/emotional) - I have observed this scout for the last few years, including a 2-day Philmont shakedown hike this winter where he struggled on a 7-mile hike on mild terrain at low elevation. He has multiple diagnosed psychiatric disorders that severely affect his ability to relate to others - especially authority figures. I pray daily for some breakthrough that will give him some more effective coping skills, but I am also mindful of a quote from the official 2004 Philmont Planning Guide, "Experience demonstrates that psychological or emotional problems frequently become magnified, not lessened, when a participant is subjected to the physical and mental challenges of a trek at high elevation, carrying a heavy backpack of steep, rocky trails." If - and it's a big IF - we can get the crew to rally around and support him, it might work and I agree they would all benefit. We owe it to him to do our best and I do believe in miracles. But I also have to prepare to make the tough call if I (and my other advisors) determine he's not ready at age 14 for this challenge. Proud Eagle - thanks - I used some of your thoughts in meeting last night. John-in-KC - thanks for the idea - I know both the Council Medical Advisor and Special Needs Chair and we're getting them involved to assist with our assessment. All - thanks for your support - this is NOT a fun part of the job...

Update. Local council wasn't much help. They say it's up to the unit, but can't cite a reference that clearly gives us the authority to exclude if we decide that would be best. (This reference would sure be useful if anybody knows where to find it.) I'm still trying to make contact with Philmont Director of Programs for some guidance. (Missed his return call this afternoon when I was on an airplane. Dang!) I met tonight with parents, CC, and SM - I think it went as well as it could. Lots of talking to clear up multiple misunderstandings. Main point from parent's point of view: They want their child to have the opportunity to participate in such a wonderful experience as Philmont. My main point: For their son, with his limitations, Philmont has the potential to be the worst nightmare of his life IF the rest of the crew doesn't accept him and resents him holding them back, helping carry his gear, doing his share of the work, etc. The adult advisors can only do so much to help avoid this and we can't control their emotions when they're getting tired during the daily grind. It's my job as the Trek Leader to make the judgment call on whether this is likely to be the case. The situation is not without hope, but right now my judgment is that he is not equipped to be successful. The scout will continue to participate in our upcoming shakedown activities. We will do our best to coach him on what he needs to do and we will assess his performance. Thanks for the thoughts. Wish us luck... -mike

In addition to chaining down, you can also buy a "ball lock" which goes into the ball socket and can only be removed with a key. (OK - you can probably get it off without the key, but it will take time and make noise.) They can be found at trailer supply stores.

Backpacking preparation should include a combination of aerobic (cardio-vascular) and anaerobic (strength) training for max efficiency of your training time. Aerobic: Builds up the heart and lungs and increases your bodys efficiency at taking in and using oxygen. (Even exercising at sea-level will help you when you get to altitude.) This includes about any exercise that gets your heart rate into your training range and keeps it there for an extended period of time. Thats about 120-160 bpm for most of us. (Consult your doctor before starting.) Activities include jogging, running, biking, stair-stepper/climbing, lap swimming, jazzercise, etc. Steady pumping for at least 30 minutes try to build up to an hour or more. To speed up your steady jogging speed, occasionally do some sprints. Warm up for a while (5-20 minutes) first, then try sprinting a block, followed by slow jog for a block, then do it again. And again. After a few sessions, youll find your comfortable, steady jogging speed picking up. Dont always do the same exercise they all use slightly different muscles and can lead to boredom (if you don't like this stuff). Start of by taking a day off between sessions, but build up so you can go 5-6 days in a row. (You dont get a day off on the trail and have to get the system used to constant pounding.) Vitamin M (Motrin) will be your friend - along with the anti-oxidant vitamins of your choice. And a cup or two of fresh brewed tea. My goal is to be running 6-10 miles at a time with an 8-minute/mile pace by the time I go. Strength: Do these to tone and add muscle mass especially to legs, but dont neglect the rest. These need to be done right to prevent injury. If youre not familiar with them, get some help or do some research. Form is more important than weight. If you have access to a gym, standard squats are the best all around. Free-bar is best, but squat/leg-press machines better than nothing. If you dont have access to gym, hold anything heavy in hands or try loaded backpack (loosen or dont use waist belt if it impedes squat motion). For squats, go for weight where you can complete 20 repetitions with solid effort. Wait 2 minutes and do it again. And again. That will get the quads talking to you. Another very good one is lunges. (These need to be done right to prevent injury, but too hard to explain in words. If you dont know, get help.) Great exercise for the quads (front of upper leg) and glutes (as in gluteus maximus you know what I mean). Calf raises a VERY important one for building strength and endurance in calf muscles. You can make a simple exercise device with a few pieces of 2x4 a long one sitting across to shorter ones fastened crossways at each end. This gives you about a 3 inch lift. Stand on bar with forward part of foot on the board. Lower the heels to floor touch lightly then slowly raise the heels as high as you can and count to 3, then lower slowly and do again. After you get used to doing it with both feet, try putting all your weight on one. Or add some weights as simple as holding a couple of gallon jugs of water. Or how about that loaded pack? (Hip-belt OK here.) Do sets of 20 repetitions. Sit-ups (or crunches) for trunk stability. Push-ups and pull-downs for upper body strength. Dont forget to stretch after a short warm-up and after youre done. If this is all new to your body, start out with little or no weight and fewer repetitions. Build up as you are able. Wait another day if somethings hurting its not yet ready for more abuse. But dont wait any longer than you must because your body needs to get ready for daily abuse on the trail. If youre unsure about this kind of exercise program, consider joining a local YMCA for a few months. They have trainers that can get you started on the right track. Considering how much money youre already spending on the trip, this little bit more will make a huge difference in the fun you have. As advisors, we worry a lot about the condition of the scouts in our crew, but 80-90% of crews are held back by adults, not scouts. Finally, try to get at least 8-9 hours of sleep every night. This is the most neglected step, but the body heals and builds new muscle best during sleep. Your body will complain over a period of time as you get started with this, but it will complain a lot louder if your conditioning program starts on Day 1 of the trail As you're grinding out the miles, keep thinking about the cool mountain air and the view from the top of the highest mountain around. You're almost there! It's worth every minute!!

Man, am I glad you're still up and on duty, Bob White!! I can see a ray of sunlight through the storm clouds. (And I really liked your analogies.)

We're preparing to go to Philmont this summer and have run into an explosive situation. We have a scout who has a mental/emotional disability which makes it very difficult for him to interact with other scouts and almost impossible to function as a member of a crew. We have allowed him to participate in shakedown activities with a prayer that he'll learn enough coping skills to make it, but it hasn't been going well. Now his father, a medical doctor, has told us that we must make allowances for him under the Americans with Disabilities Act. I sure could use a definitive reference to back me up here before we become one of those unfortunate press stories... All I can find is on http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba. "Scouts With Disabilities and Special Needs", under "Advancement." "This policy is designed to keep youth with disabilities and special needs as much in the mainstream as possible." But this mostly talks about alternative advancement programs. Other stuff on the same page talks about building programs to include everyone, but nowhere do I find a guarantee that every scout with every disability will have all of the same opportunities as every other scout. If this were true, we'd need a wheelchair ramp up Mt. Baldy. I appreciate all the guidance on how to include and we've been trying, but now I could really use some official guidance on how to "exclude" when you must. We'll start calling the local officials tomorrow, but I figured there's a good chance one of you will know where to point me. Help!

FOG, We think alike (scary!). What we've actually done is addressed the fact that SPL can't personally oversee such a large troop with 9 patrols, so we've divided the troop into 3 "Flights." Each Flight consists of 3 patrols who report to an ASPL. Our 3 ASPLs report to SPL. Each flight has an Asst SM assigned to oversee, assist, coach, etc. We're all meeting together right now, but working to get the Flights working more and more independently. I still don't know if this path could lead to creation of 3 really separate entities, but we're going to work in that direction for now.

I think we're splitting hairs here. In my experience in the two troops I'm currently serving, if it's disorganized, it won't be fun. It can, however, be organized and boring - then it still won't be fun. "Fun" is a valid measure of merit. Also brings in attitude of the leaders, etc. My older son is in a VERY large troop - about 110. When it's disorganized, nobody involved has any fun because the level of chaos grows quickly out of control. We're making progress on improving, but a year ago it wasn't unusual for my son to come home after a meeting saying he had just wasted his evening. (We've actually considered splitting this troop into two, but our CO will not allow us to.) My younger son is in a troop of about 30. It can actually tolerate a bit more disorganization because it's easier for leaders (scout) to keep it under control and still have some fun. This son has never come home thinking he had wasted his time.

Ora, I don't have reference, but - yes - the SM can delegate the authority to sign off on Tend - 1st Class requirements. SM (or troop) can set policy and restrictions. For example, in order to sign off, the signer must be at least 1st Class and must hold an official position of responsibility (PL, etc.) in which he is trained. In both of the troops I serve, within the last year they have both gone to a system where PL is responsible for the advancement of any scouts in his patrol that are not yet 1st Class. PL has the prime authority for signoff. In some cases, Instructors can assist PL with teaching certain classes and they can then sign them off, too. Those with signature authority know this is a serious responsibility. There is a danger that scouts will be either too easy or too hard in this process, so it bears some monitoring and training along the way. But the payoff is huge - all scouts learn their skills better and it frees up the adults to doing more important things like tending the coffee pot and staying out of their way. -mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

We have same problems noted - no great solutions, but an idea and an insight to offer. For big-ticket high adventure trips, we have separate fundraisers where scout gets to keep 100% of profits for his account. It may be the parents pushing, but we have a lot more interest in supporting these. A couple of years ago, we took our Venture Patrols on Spring Break Ski Trip. Since this wasn't exactly my idea of the ideal scouting high-adventure trip, I insisted my son pay half the cost. He was up early and out the door heading for the lift, barely breaking for lunch - taking advantage of every minute. At the same time, he was frustrated with some of the other guys who wanted to hang out around the cabin, wander around the shops, etc. One of them asked him why he was so intense about skiing so much. His reply, "I helped pay for this and I want to get my money's worth," left them flabbergasted. Seems he was the only scout who had been required to help pay his own way. It had taken him a couple of years to save the money, but he enjoyed it to the max. I'll confess that for Boundary Waters last year and Philmont this year, I expect him to participate in the fund raisers, but I'll pick up the balance without blinking an eye because I know how hard those things are and I know how much he'll grow from the experience. I don't want him to use lack of money as an excuse to back out. For Life Lessons in teamwork and perseverance, there's no money better spent.

Please forgive me for bumping my own message up to the active list. Hasn't anyone used (or know anyone who has) Kelty's new-fangled frame?? I am buying a new pack and am intrigued, but am suspicious of the reviews from magazines when Kelty spends so much money on advertising. Thanks!! -mike

Owl, The skeeters really caught us by surprise while backpacking in E. Texas this weekend. Luckily a few of us had small pump bottles of DEET stashed in packs. I put on windbreaker and pant legs (were zipped off) to minimize DEET required. Wish I had stuffed head mosquito net into pack - only weighs an ounce and would have saved me a lot of DEET on face/neck. Not to mention the skeeters I inhaled... Folks have talked about using some form of sulfer in an old sock to dust themselves. I forgot the details, but was wishing I had stashed some of that to give it a try. I've used Permethrin spray (pump bottle from REI) to pre-treat clothes with success. (Follow instructions - do not wear until spray has dried.) I know it's tempting, but I would avoid using wide-area broadcast sprays. Citronella -- I'm not a believer. -mike

Blaze, I love it!! We're going backpacking this weekend - I think I'm going to leave the tent behind and see what kind of reaction I get from the guys. (Skeeters aren't bad, yet. Fire ants could be a different challenge...) -mike f

Blaze, "our Troop quit using tents about three years ago" Wow -- I'm intrigued, but can't figure out how to make that work on the Gulf Coast with skeeters an issue about 9 months out of the year. Tell us more!

I'm considering a new Super Tioga and have option for old or new frame. Does anyone have any experience/comments on the new model with the curves built in? Thanks in advance! -mike f

We had an incident with similar overtones about 9 months ago. It was immediately reported to District. SM, CC, and COR pulled all involved scouts into room individually to get (and document) their stories. Our Top 3 then met with offending scout and parents. Because there had been previous discipline issues (although nothing of this nature), he was placed on 6 months probation and his parents were privately given a recommendation to get him counseling. Yes - this boy would definitely benefit from scouting, but our first responsibility is to ensure that the troop and patrol are a safe place. If there's doubt, there's no question he must leave. The boy did not come back after his 6 months were up.

We had an incident with similar overtones about 9 months ago. It was immediately reported to District. SM, CC, and COR pulled all involved scouts into room individually to get (and document) their stories. Our Top 3 then met with offending scout and parents. Because there had been previous discipline issues (although nothing of this nature), he was placed on 6 months probation and his parents were privately given a recommendation to get him counseling. Yes - this boy would definitely benefit from scouting, but our first responsibility is to ensure that the troop and patrol are a safe place. If there's doubt, there's no question he must leave. The boy did not come back after his 6 months were up.

My oldest son recently scheduled a visit with the volunteer coordinator at a regional VA hospital and came away with a number of very good options. He's working with our Eagle coordinator to refine one of them and will be turning his buddies onto the excellent lead for some meaningful projects.

We have mixed age patrols -- PL candidates must be at least 1st Class so they can sign off rank advancement for junior guys. I've also seen age requirements - both are listed as possible requirements in the handbooks. Some have participation requirements, but that gets pretty difficult to manage and I don't personally recommend it. The requirements depend on the demographics of your groups. Good luck!

Wow -- this is one of the best threads in a while! Lot's of great ideas!! We've recently started a process as follows: 1 - When PL unable to handle disruptions, he gets ASPL or SPL to assist. (SM/ASM only as a last resort or if safety/youth protection involved.) 2 - If problem persists, scout is asked to attend a post-PLC and they make sure he knows his behavior is unacceptable and they expect improvement. (Discussion documented in minutes.) 3 - If problem happens again, it's back to PLC for Final Warning. (Documented.) 4 - Next stop is SM for SM Conference. (Documented.) 5 - Next stop is Troop Committee with parents. Have seen some improvement in the last 2 months. PLs appreciate the support and disruptive scouts are rightfully concerned about having to appear before the PLC. Some have come before PLC, but none for the second time (Final Warning). Troop Committee has been alerted and are standing by to engage if/when required. If we get that far, I'll let you know how it goes.