BadenP

These are some really good ideas which I support, now for the reality, with the National structure the way it is professionals, especially top level one will never allow themselves to be accountable to volunteers and I seriously doubt that will ever change. Yet it is nice to dream isn't it.

I agree with desertrat77, the BSA needs a strong outdoorsman type, well connected in both the business and entertainment communities, an ex boy scout, who can get past all the namby pambys at National get elected CSE and turn this organization around before its too late.

Oh come on Eamonn, we both know most of the FOS goes to paying council professionals salaries, if FOS was boycotted National would have to supply that lost revenue. What do the boys get, in our council 10% off of summer camp and formerly 5% off of patches, but not anymore due to cash shortfalls. It would hardly even be noticed by the boys. It would force National to rethink their priorities salary and organizational wise, trim some of that deadwood in the upper eschelon.

Maybe this is just a ploy from the CSE's office to increase membership, heck maybe they are getting desperate watching boy scout numbers falling. That said I am sure that even the CSE would not allow that to happen, but I have been wrong before, lol.

After re reading the articles I think every scouter and scouting parent should write a letter to their SE and cc it to Mazzucca that unless this obscenely high salary is brought into line with other charitable organizations that they will boycott the FOS campaign indefinitely. I guarantee that will raise eyebrows at National, heck maybe another Boston Tea Party is in order, hmmm maybe we could throw those Chinese centinnel uniforms into the ocean as a protest, lol, after they start to fall apart that is. With Mazzuca making this overinflated salary just imagine what his underlings are making, and if you added it all up what kind of super scouting program we could have right now if we brought those salaries in line.

When I was a SM if a boy couldn't make dues because of financial trouble at home he would be excused until things got better, no one else ever knew either. No hazing ever occured over money either because most of the parents were hard working blue collar types and layoffs did occur with some frequency.

OGE Point of order, Mr Mazzucca is not even mentioned specifically in my last post, rather what most of the people who are or have been in the position of the overpaid CSE. If you want to insult me than at least have the courtesy of getting your facts straight. The post only discusses the National Office organization down to the local councils. Maybe your red beret is starting to get a little too tight OGE, lol.

desertrat Running the BSA is no more difficult or complicated than running any non profit company of a similiar size, which is not as large as you may think. Bob is more of an general overseer with regional offices and local council offices handling almost all of the everyday business. His main job is keeping the BSA in the National public eye, doing high level PR, and maintaining a National office of highly incompetent former DE's and SE's promoted out of the field and who come up with the many ridiculous rules and regs of the organization that we are obliged to follow.

I can assure you all that the the CSE of the BSA is not making less than his predecessor. He was promoted to that position on large part by his promises that he would reach out AND bring into scouting more minorities, esp hispanic, and restore the BSA to its pre 70's numbers. Lets see, hispanic cub scout soccer program fell flat on its face and now he is going for the computer nerds who have little interest in scouting, so the CSE is going to change the program to accomodate them, hmmm, seems like he is worth the fifth highest salary in the CEO category. Oh and lets not forget his most recent brainchild from when he was the ACSE, called CFC aka Crap from China has boosted supply division profits or has it? At least isn't it nice to know where all your hard earned contributions are going? LOL

Mike is correct, visitation really is aimed at the VIP's, adults or family members who want to visit a participant or group. A group of boys will get restless and like it was said will not be able to participate in any activities, better off going to regular camp or high adventure base. As an adult I visited the 05 Jambo and got to spend some time with my crew members there, I enjoyed it, but a group of boys? It would be like taking them to Disneyland and telling them they could only look in but not go on any rides.

Sorry Eamonn but National studies have been done and shown that volunteerism is down more than 25% from five years ago in the country, BSA was included. Maybe you live in a unique microcosm of everything is rosy, but I rather doubt it. You can believe what you will but the statistics are saying the opposite. BSA I think even did their own study on volunteerism in the BSA and concluded basically the same thing. Even your convoluted little prose does not change the facts.

Gern I agree with your post but I think if we wait for National to turn us back to our outdoor roots we are going to have a very long wait. The tools and guidelines are already in place and its up to the individual troops to create the program. Using some of the older BSA pubs on Pioneering, camping, backpacking and incorporating them with current pubs like the BSA Fieldbook is a good start. Training courses offered by some backpacking companies also offer some great experiences and insights. What it comes down to is once again we on the local level have to make it happen cuz it is fairly obvious National never will.

In our council the average volunteer term is 1-2 years period. Reasons include the position takes too much time, busy with work or other leisure pursuits, etc., etc., and the council does a good job getting these people fully trained in the first year. The saddest part is that when the parent leaves the program usually the kids do too, and thats what really gets me. I have seen so many good kids over the years who loved scouting have to drop out because the lack of committment of the parents to help out or even just get them to the meetings. It is indeed a sad commentary on our texting and twittering society today where "ME" is the only thing of importantance.

So has anyone put up the big bucks for the hardback version or the deluxe set yet? Are they worth the cost?

First of all as an ex DE I think Eamonn, and other volunteers are under the erroneous impression that the DE works and reports to his district volunteers, which is plainly false as the DE is solely responsible to the SE on all matters. He is commissioned by the National office to promote and grow scouting under the auspices and plan of the council exec and nothing more. He is not required to answer written or phone summons by volunteers. That said it sounds like this DE is interferring in areas of responsibility of district volunteers. The only time a DE needs to become in district activities is when it involves council property that may not be available on the date desired, other than that the district volunteers have their jobs and the DE has his. Eamonn calls the DE's work life poppycock, well Eamonn try answering and dealing with problems all hours of the day and night from irate volunteers complaining about den leaders , scoutmasters, scout leaders having affairs, and other trivial things that are not even a DE's responsibility. Yes it is part of the job but putting up with over demanding and overbearing volunteers is not. Why do you people think you get a new DE every year or two anyway? Less than 10% stay in the profession over five years, and they are usually the ones who get promoted out of district work. Eamonn, you constantly complain about several of your current and formal DE's, did you ever think that you might be part of the problem? I know that there are a lot of bad DE's out there but if you have a good one treat them right and they will want to stay with you for 3-5 years or more instead of wanting to get the hell out from the first day.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Kudu, I bet you are beginning to feel like Merlyn does in this forum, strong convictions with little support. You have some valid points which get lost in the arguments, I know from personnal experience. The BSA program is only as good as the training of the leaders, adult and youth, many troops I know have an excellent outdoor program following the basic precepts of BP, while others are little more than hobby clubs and rank/mb factories, unfortunately thats the way it has been for a long time and probably always will be. IMHO, it is not WoodBadge that is at fault but the lazyness and lack of committment of time and necessary training of a growing number of leaders. The good news is that many of those troops do not last very long, hence the serious drop in boy scout troops over the last 20 years, the ones that survive are stronger because of their sticking to a strong outdoor emphasis. I also agree I do not like the direction the new CSE is taking the program, however the good troops will survive. The good old days of scouting as you describe them are gone forever, but with all their good points there were also excessive hazing incidents, such as in my troop as a youth all the new scouts had to run a long gauntlet of paddle swats as an indoctrination into the troop. While I believe facing certain risks is part of growing up many scoutmasters crossed the line and exposed the boys to potential serious risks. Certain OA ordeals I witnessed also seriously crossed the line. So yeah the boys don't hike along the edge of the cliff anymore at the same time the world is a very different place than it was 20, 40, or 100 years ago. Kudu, keep fighting your fight for retaining and strengthening the outdoor emphasis in the BSA, that is a worthwhile fight which I support and don't sweat the small stuff, past history is exactly that time to deal with the here and now. YIS

The new venturing switchbacks at $60 yet another way to gouge volunteers and venturers, and with the cheap China fabric and shoddy workmanship. I went into our local National scout shop, felt the quality of the pants and talked to the manager, and he agreed with me saying that National has already received numerous complaints. He told me that they have only sold one pair so far, most come in look and feel them and say "Glad that we aren't required to wear these things", so maybe slowly supply division will get a loud and clear message that even they can understand.

If you are going to spend the money to go to the seabase and not going out on a boat/ship then you are probably better off going Philmont or Northern Tier. We stayed on Munson one day and that really was enough, we had fun but a week would be too much. Being on the open ocean is what the seabase really is all about. Our crew has been there twice now, Philmont once and Northern Tier once, and when it comes to their favorite hands down the seabase wins.

John REI is hardly the store to price compare, lol. I still have my old canvas backpack and frame from the late sixties when I was a scout, it has outlasted three of my REI backpacks with only one slight repair, and gets used just as often. Unfortunately the less expensive REI backpacks seem to have been getting much cheaper in quality as of late. My current REI pack is really starting to look like it is about to fall apart any minute, so I guess I will always have my old canvas pack to rely on.

I have taken both versions of WoodBadge and they were very different in their methodology and goals, while I enjoyed one much more than the other that had more to do with the quality of the instructors than anything else. Now with junior leader training I do see in my council an attempt to train them using a modified version of the current WoodBadge which I think is a big mistake because there is much less emphasis placed on outdoor skills than when I was a JLT instructor years ago. Like it or not in recent years there has been much less outdoor skill emphasis in these two programs which also seems to be the road our new CSE is following as well. While some councils are using other training programs to teach these "lost skills" mine is not one of them, as a result on camporees, etc. the lack of outdoor skills is sadly very apparent. At a recent council camporee one event was lashing together a tower, only one troop was able to create a structure that could withstand any weight without collapsing. To me this is where Kudu makes a valid point about the rapidly declining outdoor program. Ok maybe your council does a better job, I know this our SE was embarrased by what he saw and at a leaders crackerbarrel that night said he wanted some rapid changes made to both adult and youth training in our council. Scouting has changed dramatically over the years, and whether these changes have been good or bad only time will tell.

Yea Eagle92 but they have had over 10 years to correct this and have chosen not to, come on that is more than enough time even for National. Again you and emb 21 are going on someones word or opinion and making assumptions, and you know what that means.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

emb021 what you and Eamonn point are all very excellent reasons why sea scouting and venturing should be seperated under two different and exclusive programs. This sea scouts can earn this award and this award but venturers can only earn this award is both biased and elitist. On top of that emb 021 none of the current publications support your statements, so why this may be the intent of some National sea scouterit has yet to be put in writing and therefore is just opinion. Next you could have Webelos earning boy scout ranks the whole idea is plain ridiculous. I say again that everything you have stated are just personal ideas or intentions but not factual according to all the BSA literature. In the interim two more venturers in my district were awarded the Quartermaster this weekend, given to them by the SE, and they are not sea scouts, so I say again where are the facts to back up your claims?

skeptic Your opinions are duly noted. I do not hate the man at all, quite the opposite, he has a lot of charisma, but I do feel he is going in the wrong direction. On this forum I have watched good people in high places get viciously ripped apart by partisan bickering, unfortunately it is part of being in the public eye. Everything I have said is true and the facts of recent events from National, and why I admire your optimism I think it is ill placed. I will for your and others benefit tone down my rhetoric on the CSE, even though my intent was to appeal to him to have a change of heart and make the BSA the positive driving force that it once was in our society.

emb021 That's not what it says in the venturing handbook, Quartermaster is open to all venturers, including the girls, lol. Some venturing crews have a water emphasis and CAN pursue that award after they complete the Sea Scout Bronze Award no where in the Venturing Handbook does it say that only sea scouts can get the Quartermaster. Since this is the official BSA Venturing publication I can only assume you are wrong. Also check page 69 in talking about the Quartermaster award it states,"This badge of color, beauty, and symbolism, but most of all challenge, awaits every venturer who has the determination to achieve excellence." So again it says nothing about being a sea scout or only restricted to sea scouts, especially since there is a Bronze Award in Sea Scouting open to any Venturer. So emb021 it seems you are in error according to "official" BSA publications. I personally know of two sail boat venturing crews who have awarded the Quartermaster to several of their members, all they needed to know where the special skills to receive the award, no sea scout uniforms or ranks as in sea scouting. I think you now understand why the National Sea Scout organization wants to split completely from Venturing and preserve the Quartermaster Award as a strictly SEA SCOUT award. As it stands now that is not the case and I understand their frustration. Addendum, I also think that the Gold, Silver, and Ranger Award ought to be strictly Venturing awards and that is why the split between the two groups is inevitable and necessary.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

OGE That guarantee, if it is still even being honored is only for at most 30 days. But that is beside the point, WHY should scouts/scouters have to settle for poorly made and inferior quality uniforms with the premium prices that National charges for them. Is the new supply division motto buy high, get less? Any way you look at it it is just poor business practice with Mazzuca at the helm, and the really sad part is that the Chief Scout Exec. doesn't even give a dam*. So OGE when you wear your new centinnel uniform for the first time and the pant seams split and the plastic patches on the shirt begin to peal away you can say with pride this is what National thinks is a high quality uniform and the image of the BSA they want to present to the rest of the country and world, lol. Remember those uniforms back in the sixties, they wore like iron, now the BSA has the Chinese Cheap Fabric Fall Apart Uniform, GOD BLESS AMERICA!