BadenP

Pack I wasn't a math major in school. However my analogy that we as a society will have to pay for this crisis sooner or later is still valid. If we wait until the latter the cost is going to be much much higher than if we took the time to educate now. In fact eventually the need for a massive welfare program would phase itself out over time. A quality modern education, at least up through high school, should be a right of all children and not a privilege in our country. If not our country is doomed to become a mediocre third rate nation, uncompetitive in a rapidly changing global economy.

Pack Man you don't get it, even if welfare went away you would still have all these unemployable people living in the streets. Same thing happened in the Great Depression, if it wasn't for the government work programs and finally WWII our country would have been in a world of economic hurt for at least another decade or more. Yes science and math books can be out of date, most babyboomers would struggle with the way math is taught today,would you even understand quadratic equations which didn't even exsist when we went to school, and then there are new discoveries in science and scientific theory that didn't even exsist five years ago. Why do you think we are so far behind in science and math with the rest of the world, many schools are still teaching outdated curriculums with outdated books.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I love all the conspiracy theorists here concerning a birth certificate for Obama. This has been put to rest a long time ago, get over it already or get in line behind your fearless leader Trump who has now lost what little credibility he had left over this matter. To think that some people in this country are so easily manipulated that they want Trump as president, lol. Remember Ross Perot he was a serious candidate a while back too, until he admitted to being abducted by aliens and that there was a government plot to assasinate him and so he lost all his public support. Time to get a life people!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Barry In most cases these welfare kids get an inferior education and are not competitive in the marketplace after graduation,if they even graduate. Out of date textbooks, little to no equipment, teachers who don't really want to be there are just a few of the factors. My point is we can either help pay to get them a decent education now or we will pay them 100 times more when they become welfare receipients themselves. We need to be taking more people off of welfare not putting more on it, but that is exactly what is happening in our country.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Pack No not all public schools are in a horrific state but the majority are. Now take your same statistics and compare them to students in foreign countries, who are being imported at an ever growing rate to fill positions in the sciences, technology, and medicine and you will be amazed how far behind our kids truly are. A recent article I read on the jobs of the future, high tech and science that a recent survey of top high tech corporations stated 2 of every 3 jobs in these fields in the U.S. have to filled from outside our country because of the LACK of qualified American candidates. When you see on a worldwide basis in a world wide economy the USA ranks somewhere down between 17th and 20th place in math and sciences, whereas China, Japan, India, and S. Korea are always in the top five positions. Pack, to me that says we are failing both educationally and economically as a country and must reprioritize our current public educational system and set a much better standard of excellence or run the risk of becoming a third rate country, that too is a fact on which all the economic experts and corporate moguls seem to agree.

Joe Bob The only problem with your scenario with welfare/poor kids is that for one it was not their fault they were born to poor/welfare parents. Secondly, if we don't break the poverty cycle by giving them a chance at getting a good job with a decent education then like their parents they will be on the welfare dole supported by the state for all of their lives. A good education up through high school does NOT have to cost a lot of money and what you spend now will be a small fraction of what they will cost the state if they are on welfare. What delivering a quality education really takes is an administration that really understands how to develop and work within a set budget, and teachers who are knowledgable in their speciality and really love to teach. Instead the public school system we have today hasn't got a clue how to do or live within a budget, and we have teachers who are burnt out, really hate teaching, giving minimal effort, and are just lousy teachers being protected by tenure and unions instead of being culled out as what happens in charter and private schools. Who suffers as a result? The kids and the taxpayers do. It is high time the DoED was eliminated for their dismal record of performance, and that the entire public school system is either totally abolished or revamped into a system that puts the kids education first and foremost. Instead of harboring corrupt administrators misappropriating public tax money and lousy incompetent teachers who should have been let go years ago they should be required to meet a standard of excellence or be shut down. Charter and private schools have been able to meet these standards for years, and all we get from public schools are excuses and diminishing quality in their programs.

Some interesting points being made here, however for you folks who believe that any high school student should not be made college ready by the time they graduate is living in a world that doesn't exsist anymore. The charter school in Harlem I discussed earlier proves that any child can be made college ready, even the poorest and highest risk youth have the ability and potential, if it is nutured and cultivated. Even if they never go to college their education greatly will help them in whatever they do. Look at our industries today how many enginneers, scientists, and doctors are being imported from India, China, Korea, etc., etc. In the medical clinic where my doctor is located only two doctors are American born and trained, in all the hospitals in the large city area where I live the number of immigrant doctors at all levels is staggering. The same thing can be said for most of the high tech industries in our country today, just look at Microsoft for example. This is the reality of todays world, like it or not and if our kids are not properly prepared for these professions in a decade or two we will be outsourcing or filling these professions with foreigners who have been trained. I don't know about you but I don't want to ever see our country sink to the level of a second or third class nation because we insist on perpetuating the current public school system that has been failing our kids for a long time now.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

pack I hear what you are saying however in a recent survey I read on a nationwide basis high school drop out rates are averaging 40-50%, if that is not a failure I don't know what is. We need to demand more of our educational systems and the public schools are falling further and further behind every year. Yes charter and private schools cost more, put if the same public money were to be given to them based on results it would significantly bring down those costs and make most of those schools affordable. The public school system when it was created over 100 years ago was fine for the needs of those times, but not anymore. Public schools are cutting music, art , PE, sports, and many other programs just to get within their budgets. This is nothing more than an ever increasing failure of the public school system. Look at some of the inventive programs of education in poor inner city areas are seeing. In Harlem one man started a program charter school to help 10,000 at risk youth, and EVERY one of them not only graduate from high school but all of them who apply to college are accepted. These kids get personalized attention and motivation. This school receives no public funds which instead go to the public schools in the area whose administrators admit they have not been able to meet even the basic standards in their schools.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

FOS is always a two edged sword for me, as a former DE, it has been 20 years ago, for my two districts we would put together a slide show, no power point then, with some motivational music of all the district and council events of the past year and followed it with a short 5 minute talk about the value scouting brings to the youth. That seemed to work well and my districts were always well over the goals set. It also helps if the council has not squandered any money and has been receptive to the volunteers for the past year. It seems over the years since in many councils there seems to have been a shift in professional scouting with emphasis in what I call "Empire Building", using funds inappropriately to make the SE look good so he can get promoted faster, a deemphasis on supporting district activities and training and more funds used to build up council facilities and properties, and very high salaries given to SE's, FD's, etc., similiar to what is going on at the National office. In other words the chasm between professional and volunteer scouting is growing wider and wider each year.

Better yet abolish the Dept of ED and all state and district school districts,which are nothing more than another level of unneeded bureaucracy, thereby eliminating the need for ever increasing property taxes. Then allow charter and private schools the opportunity to establish their own curriculums and let the parents choose what they like the best. Public schools are miserably failing our kids today,and have been for a long time now from the stupidy of the unions protecting lousy teachers to local school district administrations becoming more and more corrupt, siphoning funds for pet projects and personal use.

Dances Take a silver coin to a coin dealer or one of these buy jewelry back places that has one ounce of silver in it and see what you are offered, I will give you a hint, it won't be anywhere near $40, so yes any surplus coins left over can and will be sold for less than that amount. One reason is not only do the coins have to be melted down but the base metals have to be extracted before they are worth anything, and that process costs. Second, silver prices are much more sporadic than gold prices. Ask any coin expert who will tell you silver is not the best investment over the long term, like gold tends to be, unless the coin is pure .999 silver, which these coins are not its value is subjective to the market buyers.

Ok let me try to refocus this discussion, when at the end of the year National Supply is stuck with a large inventory of these unsold luxury item coins and has to sell them at a loss for half price or less, as we have seen on other items in the past, how do you think this loss is passed on? Like any retail business they raise the prices on their better selling items, uniforms, books, awards, etc. So my question is then WHY does National Supply whose primary mission should be to supply the scouting community with the best quality supplies at the best possible prices continually investing their money in things like $200 Scout Garden Gnomes, $70 coins which have a very limited customer base to begin with? An investor looking to buy silver can get a much better deal for $70 than this coin and with a much higher silver content. When the prices of uniforms and badges go up again, even though the BSA is getting them MUCH cheaper from Asian sweatshops, aren't you going to wonder why? Doesn't National Supply have any moral responsibility or fiscal oversight at all?

Well if you ever had any doubts about National Supply being in it only for the money, take a look at their latest offering on their website. Collectable scouting coins, 12 in all, limited editions, going for $69.99 each, and they are not even made with silver or any other precious metal. All will be issued this year so if you are a loyal scouter and willing to shell out over $840.00 in these tough economic times then this is for you. Just what the he** is National Supply even thinking with what I consider to be their best scam to date? What do you think?

Frank You need to get your facts correct first of all and nothing you stated in your last post is even close to true. You are a very small man Frank and each post here just continues to prove it. All that aside, yes I am on a first name basis with Bob and have been for many years, since he was my SE. Here is another fact that is really going to frost you good Frankie, two years ago I was offered a position at National, but turned it down due to my current career/vocation and the fact I would never want to pull up roots to live in Texas. Yes I strongly disagree with certain paths Bob is taking the BSA down, but he truly believes that the BSA will not attract this country's vastly diverse ethnic youth and non outdoorsy youth, or even possibly survive if some drastic steps are not taken. The uniform issue is strictly a monetary thing for National nothing more or less, but I have told him it still sends the wrong message on many levels. We both agree to disagree and since he is the CSE he is in the control seat, at least for now. So Frankie you can now get off your high horse and concentrate on being a decent forum moderator for a change. By the way the CSE is not a dignitary or head of state and he does not stand on ceremony when being greeted by any scout/scouter.

Frank Your unscoutlike behavior and false accusations prove how pathetic you are as a person. What I related here comes direct from a friend at National, and Bob and is 100% true. It is not my attempt to discredit Bob at all but rather the wrong direction,IMO he is taking the BSA. Frank you might be interested to know at the 2010 Jamboree Bob and I actually had lunch together and we discussed some of these issues. We both have had a good relationship and friendship over the years as my former boss and now a friend, so Frank your are just being nothing more than a malicious little prig. To all of you forum members Frank comes off to me as a former scouter with some real chips on his shoulder and a very bitter person, why Terry made him a moderator is beyond me. Take anything Frank says about me or anyone else with a grain of salt, because that is all it is worth. Frank I hope you will start acting like a man and end your little attacks because you come off as just being pathetic.

To all you new posters, we here have pulverized this topic into the ground on several prior threads you might find interesting. Yes the BSA has gone to foreign manufacturers(aka Asian sweatshops) for all uniform parts a few years back when Mazzuca became the CSE of the BSA. The idea was that there were no longer ANY clothing firms in the USA that could make uniforms at a reasonable rate, which was a blatant falsehood started by National. I sent a personal letter to Mr.Mazzucca, and supplied him with a list of some domestic suppliers who could do the job at a competitive rate, to which he wrote back thanking me and that he would have someone look into it. Over six months later and NO action has been undertaken by National. Go figure. So here is what I think the motivation is: National is now buying all uniforms at a lower price from these sweatshops, but has not lowered but raised the prices to all scouts and scouters resulting in more PROFIT for the National Supply Division of the BSA. Another interesting tidbit of information recently passed on to me is that the CSE and other key leaders at National have their uniforms custom made by an American tailor/manufacturer because the standard uniform at supply division, just doesn't fit right and is very uncomfortable.

In spite of OGE's remark I think we can all agree that recently this country has elected too many Bozo's to Congress from ALL parties and the result has been over a decade of infighting and inaction. The new candidates get elected swearing they will change things in Washington and they then realize that Congress is not open to or willing to change. In a nutshell Congress is broken and nonfunctional, with the lowest approval rating in history and it won't get any better if the people keep re-electing the same nutjobs. IMO, a 2 term limit, just like the president, should be mandated, so these life long career politicians do not have the opportunity to build their little empires, that would be the best first step in reforming the Congressional debacle.

As far as Eagle projects are concerned the only thing I would change is the criteria of what an appropriate Eagle project is and setting some perameters. For example a scout who spends weeks developing and building a nature trail in a park with ID signs, laying a pathway, removing debris and in the end there is a resouce for the public to enjoy and understand more about nature versus a scout who goes to a local paint store, gets them to donate some paint and then and goes paint three benches at his church on one Saturday with one other scout. Both of these were approved Eagle projects on two EBOR's I sat on during the same day some years back. Now which of these do you think was truly a legitimate Eagle project? This is what I mean by there being a serious inconsistancy in what truly qualifies as an Eagle Project. Some scouts skirt through this requirement giving,IMO, much less than minimal effort in the type and execution of their projects. The guidelines currently in place are too open ended and need to be tightened up.

Twocub First of all the Summit was a gift to the BSA by a wealthy benefactor, a huge tax deduction for him. Mazzuca on his own would never had scored this gift, as he wouldn't want to divert funds from his urban diversity and science camp scouting programs, he was just in the right place at the right time and this was given to him (BSA). Any upgrades to the Summit will be paid by large donations from other wealty benefactors, and from all the PR it looks like the CSE wants to make it into some kind of scouting Disneyland. So we will see what happens, but don't expect National to veer too far from the course Mazzuca has set. In all honesty I truly hope my predictions concerning the BSA and the outdoor aspect of the program are wrong, but there are no current indicators to make me feel differently.

Reading all these posts there seem to be some common problems with the OA: 1)The election process needs a redo. 2)No real incentive or draw to encourage a boy to run/join. 3)Little interest in dressing up or dancing like Indians. 4)OA viewed as a "slave work force" to the boys. 5)A viewpoint that the OA does not do enough events that are fun. 6)OA being a Scoutings Honor Society instead of the Honor Camping Society of the BSA. IMO, most of these could be addressed and corrected fairly easily and quickly. Over the years the powers that be seem to have lost their focus and vision and the organization has deterioated into a "sash and dash" one time experience with little support of its membership, most of who are inactive.

Frank Always out of touch with what is being said. Ok just for Frank, first and foremost the responsibility for a solid outdoor program in your troop or crew is the responsibility of the units adult and youth leadership. Now to what was being discussed here, if National continues to de-emphasis the outdoor program, continues to modify or eliminate outdoor skills and rank requirements the scout leaders in turn will get the message very quickly that outdoor skills are NO longer important and begin to eliminate them from their programs, especially when they are no longer included in the handbook.

Amen, Brother Beavah, no truer words were ever spoken. I feel that we as scout leaders need to know, as Kenny Rogers would say, when to hold em and know when to fold em. As we get older are we really doing the youth a favor when we know we aren't quite up to energy level we once were. It was one of the hardest things for me to step down as Venturing Advisor for a crew I started and watch grow from 10 teens to 65 teens. Now as CC/COR and still playing an active role in the crew, going on occassional outings, watching the new Advisor and Assoc. Advisors, who were founding members of the first 10, growing into and thriving in their new roles assures me that I made the right decision. Now I have the best of both worlds, working behind the scenes to help get the crew the support they need, acting as a counselor for the Advisors when they have problems, questions or need advice, and to be constantly invited to go on outings with the crew, which I do on a limited basis as a guest and not the leader. Too many leaders hold on way too long, maybe out of fear of losing part of their identity or feeling their way is the only way to run the unit. Letting go is always hard, but we all have to at one point or another. Otherwise we risk being asked to step down by the committee, the parents, or even the youth.

jet Maybe in your mind this situation is more interesting, but I think Beavah has it right nothing more than "making mountains out of molehills". In reality all this truly was is a case of the complete breakdown of leadership by both the adult and youth leaders of that patrol. Time to replace that ASM before she allows something truly serious to happen to any of your scouts. Sorry for being so blunt.

jet First of all this is the kind of issue that you should be able to handle fairly easily within your unit without getting third hand advice here. You are the SM so act like one, if your ASM screwed up talk to her, tell her what she did wrong and why, then reverse the actions she took. Next explain to the boys exactly what they did wrong, and why you did what you did, case closed. IMO, your ASM sounds like she needs some more training, especially on how to deal with boys during an outing, or maybe you need another more competent ASM to fill in for you when you are absent.

j rush I think history has shown, especially recent history, that professional politicans in all parties make some of the worst presidents as well. People are tired of all the squabbling going on in DC and want action. Maybe its time for a president who will stand up to all these crackpots and say, "You're fired".