MattR

Since I'm bored with coed scouts... I think the early biblical writings would be the Torah Actually, I got curious. In the dead sea scrolls the name of God is not blank, but it does use a different alphabet, or maybe it's just a different font. Anyway, the YHWH, called the tetragrammaton, is from the hebrew יהוה or Yud Heh Vav Hey, which could be translated as "he" plus the root of the verb "to be" and likely comes from Exodus where Moses asks God for his name and God says something that can be translated a dozen different ways (He is who He is, I am what I am, I shall be what I am, He shall be who I am, I am who I am, .....). Somewhere along the line the Catholic church wanted a Latin version of the tetragrammaton and translated YHVH into JeHoVaH. Maybe Latin doesn't have a Y? But, back to not writing it or pronouncing God's name. Throughout the Bible God is referred to by either the tetragrammaton or one of many nicknames. The tetragrammaton is never pronounced and it's usually pronounced Adonai, which oddly enough translates to "my Lords". The idea behind not pronouncing God's name is not so far off. Kings get new names when they're anointed and using their original name is considered rude. Even using someone's first name, if you don't know them well, is, or was, also considered rude. There are native American tribes where people are given a secret name that only the person and the medicine man knows. Used in the right way this name was considered to have healing powers and used in the wrong way was bad. Anyway, God's name is never mentioned. Even if anyone wanted to pronounce it they wouldn't know how because there are no vowels in the original text and unless someone told you what the vowels are, you couldn't say it. At one point in time there was someone that knew how to pronounce God's name and that was the high priest. It was passed down from high priests to high priest. The high priest only mentioned it once a year at the end of the high holidays after 10 days of prayer. And he had a special room in the temple where he said it and nobody else was allowed in that room. What I've been told, and I have no idea of it's validity because I find this rather humorous, is that there was another high priest that acted as a backup just in case the first team high priest got sick, died or whatever. That brings up the scenario of what if the high priest dies in the room? Apparently they tied a rope around him and if he didn't walk out they pulled him out and sent in the backup. Well, after the destruction of the 2nd temple the priesthood ended and Rabbinic Judaism started, and one thing that was lost in the transition was the pronunciation of God's name. That's why Jews never pronounce God's name. Back to the regularly scheduled subject....

But venturing always was coed, so girls can't be the reason for the drop. I think the drop in venturing holds the key to the problems. Two things I can think of is scouting in the US is seen as a way to stuff your college app by too many people. Imagine boy scouts without Eagle. How many scouts would drop out. Another other issue is friendships. They develop early on, before age 14. That doesn't explain a drop in venturing though. I'd be all for lowering Venturing age to 11. Whatever it takes to solve the venturing problem will surely help the boy scout side. The outreach programs I've heard of (Mexican and Vietnamese) have come back and said these communities want not not so much coed, but the whole family. Siblings tend to stay together, so when the older brother goes to an event there needs to be something for the rest of the siblings. There's nothing wrong with having a separate program, just make sure they can meet the same time in the same place. That's another way to make it coed. High school sports are not coed but we do have title iX. Again, what's wrong with an all girl troop that shares a CO with an all boy troop? That would certainly make life easier for parents.

So bearess, are you saying boys need to be around boys to learn how not to be idiots when they grow up and are not around women? I never thought of that. Skip, the problems your wife has with credit cards would never happen where I live. The bill is always placed in the middle of the table. There are plenty of cases where the fact that I'm married means nothing. I can't even ask about my wife's medical info without her written permission.

The all mail program sounds really boring to me. Not even all email? What's wrong with local option here? You want a troop that's for boys only. I understand that. Someone else wants girls only or coed.

We had 25 one year. It was really hard. If you can come up with a way to even things out, and everyone is happy with it, I'd suggest that. The first important question you need to ask is why all these scouts picked your troop instead of the others. If the others are running a similar program and these scouts just randomly decided to pick your troop then a friendly round table with the other troops is a great idea. If the scouts picked your troop because the other troops were rude, ignored the visiting webelos, or have a horribly boring program, then you have a bigger challenge. In this case, Eagledad's comments are good. So, call some of the new parents and ask. At the same time, I never said no to a scout. If at the end of the day they want to be in your troop, don't tell them no. You might just cause the kid to drop scouts all together. But Be Prepared for the chaos. Good luck, you have what's called a high class problem.

I have no doubt the recently large drop is due to the membership change. But I have no idea how this will effect things in the long term. Yes, it's been bad for 3 years. But I'm not talking about what has happened in the past 3 years. I'm talking about what has happened over the past 50 years. The numbers have been going down for one reason or another since the 60s even though the population has gone up nearly 40% in that time frame. I don't know what the scout membership was in the 60's but it's a lot more than now and it should have been going up, not down.

Funny? This is based on experience. The girls were singing Christmas songs and the boys were wrestling.

Why does everyone assume that coed scouts means every unit, at every level, will be coed? Would an all girls scout troop using the BSA model work? Now let's say that there is an all boys troop and an all girls troop that shares the same committee. Different SMs. Different calendars. Shared gear. Shared committee. Shared CO. The parents bring all the kids to the same place so family scheduling just got easier. If these units are really following the patrol method, when they do go to the same place to go camping and are 100 yards apart, would it be a problem? The girls can sing songs around their campfire while the boys beat the tar out of each other around their campfire.

I suspect different beliefs handle this differently. I have no problem with the concept of struggling with God; for all sorts of reasons. Others see it differently.

The parents seem to have 2 excuses. One is they're too old to do sleep overs and therefore have to drive home every night and that extra hour on either end of the day is really going to impede their ability to spend some time with their sons. The other is that those that will stay a few days ... really have no excuse. It'll cost them an extra $5 in gas or something. Split the added cost over the scouts in the car and it's between $1 and $2 extra per scout. I'm trying to figure out how to say this courteously but I'm having troubles. Tell the adults to just suck it up and stay for a few days. If they do they just might have some fun. Waking up before the scouts and enjoying the cool morning and sun coming up. Going to bed after everyone else, enjoying the sounds and the stars. If they can just get over being a little dirty they will experience something wonderful and new. Oh, and they'll get to spend some more time with their sons. And they won't be stressed out about traffic. I mean really. Okay, enough of the sarcasm. You do have a challenge in that you need to politely convince these adults that they are really missing out. What they call hardship I call a new adventure. Our closest camp is an hour away on small country roads. The furthest we've gone is 4 hours. Next year we're going five or six, just to try out a really cool place. Adventure is fun. Road trips are fun. I can't even imagine this scenario so is the real issue just a power struggle? That's not good. Good luck.

There have been other changes over the decades other than gays. One of the biggest has been that life is more competitive than it used to be. The economy is certainly more competitive. Someone once told me that decades ago if you asked a parent what they wanted for their children they would tell you they wanted their kids to be good. Now, they'll tell you they want their kids to succeed. Art is now competitive. Marching band, Dancing with the Stars, American Idol. Something is wrong when art is about winning. Whereas scouts used to be about being good, now it has to be about succeeding. If all you have to do is succeed then taking care of younger scouts is not a selling point. If the parents don't see the point of scouts then they won't volunteer. They won't make sure their kid gets to meetings or campouts. That's why the numbers are going down.

I'm curious as to what they mean by basics. We do something similar, NSP from when they join until summer camp. My PLs didn't say they lacked basics, they said some scouts lacked maturity. Some scouts would be able to move in to a patrol after one campout while others would take a year, or maybe more. How can I spread that out? I like the idea of not moving them into patrols all at once. I don't want the "last one picked" scenario. Maybe some sort of requirements to sign off. I don't know, 3 campouts with a positive evaluation of the Scout Law?

For me it's not mixed age vs same age. Personalities and friendships have more to do with it than anything else. Scouts need friends. Without friendships scouts start dropping around 13 when they start finding friends elsewhere. Friendships can be of similar ages or different. Similar ages are what everyone thinks about. If the ages are different it's more like an older/younger brother relationship. Depending on whether the "brothers" are respectful of each other defines whether the friendship will work. If it does it's magic. At the same time, a group of same aged scouts with different personalities can be just as difficult to form a patrol bond. I've seen similar aged patrols explode into mean girl territory. I've also seen a clique of friends stick together and help each other out to the point where they all had their ECOH together. Also magic. So, what to do? Forget graphs, charts and spreadsheets. Let them figure it out and then be there to help pick up the pieces. As for your son's patrol I see all sorts of red flags. The PLC decided to split your son's patrol up. Did anyone talk to the scouts in his patrol to get their input? Did they just randomly move kids around? This patrol has spent a year together and they are making friendships. Breaking those up is bad. Next, the reason the patrol is broken up is because the scouts aren't advancing. This is not a reason to break up a patrol. It might be a reason to sit down and talk to a patrol, but not to break up friendships.

I agree that relatively few scouts are looking for more challenging adventures. A lot are looking for recognition by adults as peers, but I wouldn't say all of them are. Many are looking for recognition from their peers. All of them are looking to see where they fit in and if they find something they like that contributes to the unit then they're happy as can be. It could be working with younger scouts or it could be bigger adventures. Some like OA. I have a scout I can't quite figure out and he certainly is looking. Very bright. Very witty. Good heart. He will try new things. But can come across as a smartass. He tried being PL but didn't like it. He had a challenging couple of younger scouts. So it's not that the adults were a problem shooting him down. A whinny 11 year old can do just as much damage to someone that is unsure. Then there are the scouts that just don't really want to be there but mom or dad is making them. I have one or two of those right now. They're not helpful or optimistic. Unfortunately, those scouts, or even those that have other problems, can make it very difficult for scouts that are just trying to figure out where they fit in. It's not like we just need to get out of their way and let them lead. Supporting them is a balancing act.

You know, after 19 pages there has been no blood spilled and we found something we agree on.

To paraphrase James Carville, "It's the program, stupid." Fixing MBs, fixing adult training, fixing the image, focusing on kids having fun while learning self sufficiency. I agree with all of these and that there are lots of things to work on. However, there's one place to start and that would be national. Talk about sclerotic. There is either no leadership or they have no idea what the program is about. There probably are some people there that have been in scouts and stay connected, but my guess is there are a lot of turf wars going on and no focus on the big picture. Honestly, if they'd find another job for the one guy that has to put a requirement about career options in every single MB then the collective time wasted by kids on mindless nonsense would decrease by a million hours a year. A much bigger issue is training parents in outdoor skills so they can take scouts on trips.

I think the only way around this is local option, but is transgender a local option? Gays scouts isn't. Gay adults are. Just wondering what was said.

blw2, just my 2 cents but here's another view of you being part of the solution. Rather than being confrontational how about going to the SM and saying, just like you've told us, "I'm worried about my son and the scouts in that patrol. They don't want to go to summer camp. Because of this my son is losing interest. Would it be okay if I talked to the scouts and the parents to find out what's going on? Can you give me any advice on how to talk to them? Is there a way the troop does this sort of thing?" Don't quote chapter and verse about patrol method, boy led. Just talk about what you see with your son. If someone asked me if they could find out what's going on with a patrol that's having problems I'd be very happy and encourage them. New scouts need to be making friendships if they're going to last. If the SM blows you off then, I have nothing for you. But likely it will be better than that. Talk to the parents, maybe they see similar issues. If you can get the scouts together then finding out what they really enjoy and really get bored with can start a good conversation. I hope you can find a way for your son to make friends and keep having fun in scouts. Good luck.

Adamcp, what were the ages of the people you worked with? Also, is there a medical diagnosis? I mean, who decides? If it's the parent, as the BSA says, this sounds like medical marijuana in Colorado and that was abused no end. I would think a doctor that really understands this would be able to make a better decision for a kid than scouters or parents.

Here's an old example of "a friend to all": At the end of a long day of political wrangling, President Reagan would often call Democratic Speaker of the House Tip O’Neill, and ask, “Hello, Tip, is it after six o’clock?†“Absolutely, Mr. President,†the Speaker would answer. “After six o’clock†meant work hours were over, and the two leaders of their respective parties could put away their swords and bring out their Irish whiskey and wit. I remember all the voters going crazy and getting personal over these two and yet they could still be friends. Now, showing any understanding of the other side is weak. Humility is for losers. I know, the people that scream the loudest that we should all accept our differences are currently in Berkley waging violence because of someone they disagree with. But that's not humility. Humility is something we're trying to teach scouts. They aren't the center of attention. They have to give more than receive. There are things bigger than them. Scouting is important. Maybe that's why fred was dodging questions.

I see two different issues here. The first is transgender and the second is coed. First the TG. Irrespective of how any kid comes to thinking of TG, the kid will likely have issues. Just like a whole mess of other kids in my troop. The kid wound too tight. The two kids that were legally removed from their parents. The kid with PTSD from watching his mom smoking crack. The kid with Down's. The numerous kids that saw their parents go through an ugly divorce, some of whom are seeing shrinks. The kids without fathers. The kid that cuts himself. The momma's boys. The kids that are just down. All the boys dealing with hormones . Honestly, these are the kids I have in my troop now. I mean, the odds of a TG kid joining my troop is 1 in 10, but even if one does, it's just one more kid with issues. As for going coed, I have mixed feelings. I see both sides of it. As long as troops can decide their own policy I can make it work. If I did have girls then patrols would not be coed. And you know, I wouldn't mind having a few girls go on a winter campout to shame some self appointed macho boys into getting off their lazy butts. The bottom line here is that I'm playing the cards I've been dealt. It's just like athletes that get bad calls by the refs. It's all part of the game. All kids have issues. They also all have a bit of God in them. So whatever rules come down I'll work with. The challenge I see with either coed or TG is not whether I have kids with issues, it's do I have parents that can help with those issues. My complaint with all of this is that fewer parents are helping out. I saw no drop in participation after the gay issue, but I have seen a gradual decline over 15 years of adults that will help out. Conservative or liberal, fewer adults are setting aside time to volunteer.

I like CalicoPenn's statement - the scouts don't eagle out so much as they quit. Earning Eagle is just one method, it's not the aim. There are a lot of people that don't understand that. Part of the real aim is to keep them interested for as long as possible so they keep learning new things as they mature. Some kids are just wired to only be interested in recognition. Fun or even challenge without recognition is of no interest. Those kids just want to get the patch and move on. I guess that's fine, we do what we can. But I'm not going to change things for them to make it easier or harder. The whole business about fumes and we have to get them to eagle before they quit is nothing I'm interested in.

Not quite sure I understand but if the idea is to get people with no hearing problems to understand then how about working it from their point of view. Give a presentation as a mime. Use slides so the audience has to read what you want to say. All you have to do is point where they have to read. Start off with slides that explain what you're doing. Go on to slides that tell a story. The first few slides are fine, everyone can read them. Just about the time the suspense thickens modify the slide so parts of the story is blocked. Just place a block over the text so the audience can only read some of the words. Put the block in different parts of the screen on different pages. Slowly make the block bigger. Better yet, the block could be pictures of things people do that make it hard to lip read.

Shift, it seems to me that what you really want, the purpose you're here, is to convince us that the BSA is not worthy and that we should leave. You never really asked a question. It was always a statement. So all I can think is you want us to join you in your denunciation of the BSA. We won't. While we all see weakness in the BSA we stick around because we know it also has it's good. Some kids learn something and have fun doing it. That's all we're looking for. You said "I can't teach young people about the Scout Oath or Law, when I know that is not what all scouts are." If everyone followed that logic nobody would teach religious school at any religious organization. For that matter nobody could teach a child anything about the police, the FBI, medicine or any other organization that claims to make the world a better place, because they all have their problems. You're done with scouts and that's fine. You're not the first to leave angry. I understand your frustration and don't blame you for it. At the same time I still enjoy working with kids and seeing them smile when something works. I don't expect a perfect organization or perfect kids. As long as I keep feeling like I'm making a positive contribution I will keep at it.

Chocolate and too sweet? I hate to say it but that sounds American. Our scouts really like cooking competitions and they come up with some really good stuff. They've recently been comparable to the adults. Part of that is some of the adults that used to have way too much fun (someone brought a smoker once) have aged out and the newer adults just don't cook. As soon as the competition is over the scouts go back to the usual nasty junk they do over and over and over, until the next competition. In other words, cooking just to enjoy good food? Nope.