MattR

4 hours ago, UKScouterInCA said:

My father was a Scoutmaster in post WW2 inner city Bristol. This was a city that was pretty much leveled by bombing and poor areas of the city were incredibly deprived. He saw Scouting as the perfect vehicle to give these kids opportunities that were completely inaccessible to them, to be in nature and the outdoors and learn life skills and leadership, respect for others and reverence for the institutions and natural world around him.

I wish I could understand how he did that. If there's anything that could help scouting it would be to replicate that here. There have been attempts in the BSA but most have failed. 

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

As I understood their argument, they allege the BSA is allowing false claims in hopes such alleged people jump at the chance to get the $1500 "take it and run" offer, thereby inducing them to vote for the BSA's plan. I believe that's it...

I understand that part. It's the evidence I'm wondering about. What's the proof that the BSA accepted false claims, given that they did complain about the intake process.

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

But I do think that knocking something that is 90% to 99% effective because it is not 100% effective

What do you mean by "knocking"? Punishment for a crime? Are you saying there should be no punishment for the crimes? 

My guess is your fear is that this will destroy scouting? If so, that's a very different topic. This one sounds like a statistical argument as to why the whole thing should be dropped. Getting back to my human dignity argument so many pages ago, that's not anything I'd get behind.

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Note that Century has accused the BSA of allowing thousands if not tens of thousands of false claims to remain on the books.

Is there any explanation as to why Century made this accusation? Standalone, it sounds far fetched.

Okay, it's pinned.

@ThenNow, If you go to the home page you'll see that the forum is composed of numerous sub forums. This thread is in the issues and politics sub forum (why, I don't know but it is). Anyway, if you click on the I&p sub forum there is a list of threads sorted by last mod date, except for those pinned, which are kept at the top of the list.

High Adventure trip anyone? What are the prettiest couple hundred miles with plenty of camping.

Is this one of those start in Florida in March and get to the end before fall gets too cold.

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Hopefully others will continue to be attracted to the thread title and venture in.

I'm assuming it would help survivors when they're ready to talk, to whatever level they're comfortable with. You were the first to have the courage to speak up and there have been a few more since.

We can pin the thread so it stays visible when people look through the forums. Just let me know if you think that would help.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Would you consider reposting this on the main Chapter 11 Part 175 thread?

It would likely get lost in that thread, especially in the next few days. 

If I could I'd set up a sub thread for everything related to the bankruptcy to keep some of the many subjects cohesive, but I don't have those powers.

41 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

So BSA is saying their current offer is better than what would be provided if the entire BSA is liquidated.

How is that possible?

56 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Some years ago, I bought a pair of Bundeswehr  (german army) winter trousers from my "surplus " store.  

You must have gotten the newer ones. Mine have no elastic. I do find the buttons difficult to work when it's cold and I really gotta go, but wool is great in the snow while active. Mine cost $15 army surplus but the price went up once everyone realized how great they are for snowshoeing.

But, back to rain. It's all about breathability. I'd think the skirt with summer weight gators might do the trick. 

Interesting. I'm always more comfortable in snow than rain. Now I know why. 

15 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

I had an odd thought, last night.  Since there will never be enough money to compensate victims for what we have gone through, how about if BSA sets aside and maintains a network of local and national campgrounds for the sole use of survivors? 

I had the same thought months ago. If it could help then I'd be in favor.

Not sure about the electrical hook ups, though

Unfortunately, any feedback is just speculation. We don't know. 

2 hours ago, AMRC18 said:

It's interesting to note that the Webelos shoulder knot originates from the Rover Knight shoulder knot, with the colors of the 3 sections (yellow for cubs, green for boy scouts, and red for Rovers).

Fun fact. Thanks.

@MGinLA, welcome to the forum and, uh, sorry about losing your first post.

I forget, what's after Storming?

That reminds me. In another thread I asked what people needed for their kids to enjoy scouting. It was yet another attempt to get people to focus on being constructive, and it was ignored.

Anyway, I thought of one more thing that would really help. Leadership. From the very top. Someone that has a vision and can get everyone on the same page. I read about this somewhere. Or maybe it was in a class I took. Something about animals and parking tickets?

It's surprising how difficult it is to find a real leader. 

Has anyone considered that .07% is a really bad number when it comes to quality? That's 1 in 1400.

If 1 in 1400 cars had serious failures, to the point where it goes to court, people would be really upset.

We should do better for our children.

When it comes to quality there is no acceptable failure rate. There is, however, an acceptable change in failure rate. 

Unfortunately, that money is gone. It's time to let it go. 

How about a small fundraiser to get you through the rest of the year? 

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

My child joined a pack and later a troop to experience scouting (lower case).  Yes, the BSA program is good and nicely developed.  But most people are not in the BSA because of the organization. 

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Just as in the bankruptcy thread, it will be impossible to discuss this topic because none of us can leave emotions and beliefs out of this.

Maybe not. What is it that your child needs/needed to enjoy scouting? I'll answer for me but I'd like to hear your and other people's opinions on this.

My son needed a camp that was big enough for a bunch of scouts and not too far away. He needed a bunch of like minded kids and adults that also enjoyed the outdoors and the ideal of scouting. Finally, the adults that did all the work needed a program that they could follow. I'm not sure there's any priority to this list. One more thing that needs to be added to this list moving forward is a YP protocol that will keep us from ever coming back to where we are now.

For us, the camp we most used was the biggest but the rest, as far as we were concerned weren't nearly as important. They made it easier to put on a monthly camping program. That was nice but we spent most of our campouts at one place. It was an easy place to go camping and big enough that we could do a lot of activities at. We camp in a lot of places but many have nothing to do with scouts, so occasionally traveling to find new places is also in the mix.

Those were hard assets. The people and program were soft assets but they made it much easier to create a calendar.

If we can keep a nearby camp, can still attract families and have a documented program that we can argue about here, then we'll do okay. We don't need HA bases. We don't need OA. A district would be nice but we certainly don't need council other than taking care of the camp. We don't need a lot of things. Put the scout store on Amazon. We also will continue to have the same problems we had before all of this came about. Kids still want to do more than be lectured at. Adjusting or tweaking the program will do a lot more good than saving Summit or preventing the loss of some of our smaller camps.

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

From a legal standpoint, it does. The court will look at BSA's negligence (and that of LCs and COs.)

The fact that OTHER organizations may ALSO have been negligent will never, ever be allowed into evidence or as part of the trial because it is irrelevant to the question at hand: was BSA (or the LC or CO) in negligence in caring/protecting for the minor and/or in the supervision of the abusive adult leader.

It was the "to darn bad" comment I was referring to. You could have just left that out. 

I agree that "just because others are doing it" is not a good defense, mostly on moral grounds as I don't understand the law.

27 minutes ago, yknot said:

Before anyone can answer that question you would have to consider at least two additional things: Scale and comparable time periods. There are 3.5 million teachers in the US and 57 million school children creating many opportunities for abuse. There are far fewer scouters and scouts. For example, in 2014, there were 1 million adult volunteers involved in scouting and 2.6 million scouts, creating far fewer opportunities for abuse. 

A useful comparison of incidents would also have to select for comparable time periods. 

I think the one good thing that might come out of this mess is better data sets and societal awareness regarding the incidence of child abuse.  Do I think BSA, given all the other aspects of this issue that we know, should be held less accountable? No. BSA was near custom designed to be a pedophile buffet and did not recognize the warning signs or effectively act on warnings, many of which were issued from its earliest inception.  

 

I'm not sure comparing rates is much help. Youth were/are being abused and the number is significant. I did a search on school districts sued for child abuse and the exact same subject came up for a few districts as for the bsa. In the one case I saw teachers were passed around much like priests in the Catholic church. Maybe a better question is when/how will what we see at the bsa turn up in school districts.

16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Too darn bad. The fact that other organizations were negligent does NOT absolve BSA's negligence.

This is the type of commentary that doesn't help. 

42 minutes ago, Rabid said:

Please don’t lock the thread. It’s a valuable resource. And I’m sure there are others lurking quietly, watching as well.

Thanks for the feedback.

Okay everyone. Let's all step back for a bit. I can lock the thread and force it but I'd rather not.