MattR

I have no idea what you're talking about. Please educate me.

This thread has gone from 18 yo scouts to following rules to bad beer humor to women scouters to substance abuse and a strange reference to Rabbinic Judaism.

It's New Year's eve. If there were ever a year where it would help to end on a high note, this is it. Please help me out on this one.

A cat herding thread or a raccoon thread?

I have bird feeders. And squirrels. So I got a bird feeder that shuts when the squirrels climb on it. Great, but what does this have to do with raccoons? Raccoons are not only smarter than squirrels, they are much heavier. They figured out if they just swing from the bird feeder they'll pull it off the tree and, voila, bird seed everywhere. I assume they shared with the squirrels. They did drag the feeder away and it took awhile to find it. I used their weight to my advantage and hung the feeder way out on the thin branches. Even the squirrels haven't figured it out. Then the hawk showed up.

9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Also, providing feedback to get rules fixed.  

There's a whole other thread on how that's not working. Feedback, scouts in an advisory council, volunteers  etc.

Rules work great when everyone believes in them. In my town it seems red lights are a suggestion for the first second - kind of like the 5 second rule for dropped food. The BSA, like most large organizations, is run by people that honestly believe they are like captains on a ship that make small changes to a rudder to move the entire organization in a new direction. Maybe a better analogy is, rather than a ship, we're just a large gas that is following its own rules of physics, with a leadership council making proclamations upon high. The only way to steer such an organization like a boat is to make prolific use of ropes, stones and boats, as grimly described in Matthew. No, the only way to control a large organization is to understand the directions it is inherently moving anyway.

I used to believe I could change the direction the adults in my troop wanted to go. Of all the great ideas I found about scouting I was sure I could at least take small steps towards scouts taking on more ownership. But reality sucks. We'd talk, agree and have great plans, but half the adults just did what they always did. They kept ensuring there was extra gear when patrols forgot to check. They'd refuse to let the scouts to fail. I could explain what and why or could have created all sorts of rules, including ropes, rocks and boats, and those scouts never had to worry about running out of trash bags. If I had the energy to do it again, I'd have to accept the adults as part of the game.

But back to the 18 year old scouts. Leadership is about figuring out how to motivate the people you have, not the people you want. It's less about rules and more about understanding what drives people. I'm not saying rules aren't needed, just that nearly everyone needs to agree on the rules, or they will be ignored.

Merry Christmas, if that's what motivates you.

I did receive some email about how eagle isn't the only purpose of scouts. Maybe there's a bit of change?

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

SO, do you think the BSA will take any suggestions from these young people?

I don't.

 

Really. Given the amount of feedback accepted from volunteers this is almost laughable.

And yet, it would be nice if the organization existed to make use of it. Every 18 yo scout I talked to had very similar feedback for me and I've represented their opinions here to the best of my abilities.  Less book work, more doing, etc.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Not this one. It was my singular motive when all of this surfaced for me 20 years ago. He escaped by a whisker when younger men were unable to step forward and testify, not yet to the point of full recognition of what he did. As I’ve said, I bet there are at least 5 of us among the survivor claimants. 10+ wouldn’t surprise me one itty bitty bit. I spent years dreaming of other means to hold him to account. If several of my family members where unleashed, it wouldn’t be pretty. I won’t risk identifying their professions, but let’s say it would be precise and untraceable. Ok. Sorry. I guess it’s not too deeply buried. It came up with them again when I was completing my POC. A, “Just say the word,” scenario. “No,” was the word that day.

First of all, it's good that you did hold everyone back. But when will the criminal SOL rules change? We've talked so much about civil SOL laws but not much about criminal. I would have thought those would change first but I don't know much about any of this.

Deciding "fair" sounds like deciding art, it depends on who you are and what your circumstances are. What would be fairer to everyone would be if the BSA had not been withering on the vine for the past 60 years. Without that there would be more money and more donations. If 20% of all available kids were in scouts then whether or not the BSA fails would not be an issue. So I'm not sure "greed" of those seeking money really has much to do with any bad news. Sure, the bankruptcy may be speeding any demise up, but I have no illusions as to the BSA's plan of increasing membership in a few years. It reminds me of the Soviet's five year plans. Goals are easily written. What has made scouting good are the volunteers. The money saved in coffers has less to do with the quality of the program. Sure, summer camps can be nicer with a lot of donations but it's the day to day people that make the program work and those are volunteers.

Anyway, while I have fond memories of what scouting has done for many scouts, I just can't see how the bankruptcy is really going to make a big difference in the long run. Camps are just being sold earlier, that's all.

My guess is that they assume the parent is more reliable at keeping up the membership? I asked my son if he wanted any of the email I get for him and he said no. He's busy and I can't blame him.

In order to mitigate pine beetle and fire hazards our camp and state and county parks have felled lots of trees. Maybe the forestry MB mentions this.

BTW, those hooks to move logs I've seen. They work much better than a long prybar. I will leave prybars for rocks, tiles and 2x4s.

35 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

I'm pleased to observe that 'Paul Bunyan' has returned.

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/ScoutsBSA/PaulBunyan.asp

In the mid sixties this was a hands on course offered over a few days at Scout Camp.  I learned the skills from a great teacher, and stepped up to fill the void when he left.  Our award had a button hole in the end of the handle and dangled on your right pocket under the flap. 

What's a prybar used for in the woods - assuming no nails are involved?

55 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

In teaching kids to use tools safely, I find many have an expectation that both easy and QUICK work will result.  I cringe at speed competitions where tools are involved particularly at the beginner level. We can teach a beginner to use tools SAFELY,  IMO QUICK requires experience and may never come by choice.

After my 7th grade wood shop teacher taught us how to properly use handsaws, he held a sawing competition. I want each of you to cut your board to these lengths and these angle cuts... And we were off. The first one done yelled I win, so the rest of us stopped sawing. Our instructor yelled at us, I told each to you to cut your board. Get back to work!

When the last student was done sawing, our instructor measured the lengths, the square and angle of the cuts.  He explained he never said he wanted the cuts done quickly, rather he expected them done to spec - we are craftsmen. One of the slowest was closest to those specs, though not perfect. His point,  take time to think the cut and PRACTICE.  Advice I would hear again later at summer camp in a whittling class.

My $0.02,

Good story. We had an awesome competition and everyone said speed and I said precision. So it was how many times can you split a log, and you had to use the smaller piece of any split for the next try. That was fun.

9 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I started my adult leaders wood-tools training class by explaining that the worst damaging flesh injuries in scouts came from saws. Not from not knives, not hatchets, and not the really scary axe.

Except for when, using an axe, they use a wrong stance and nearly hit their foot. That can prevent them from ever walking again.

Table saws are a whole different class of how to hurt yourself. It's one reason why I prefer hand tools in my wood shop. While I have a table saw I would like to get good enough and have nice enough hand saws to replace it. Hand tools are slow but they're much more enjoyable. It's the difference between walking in the woods and driving at rush hour.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

So, the question for the BSA case.  I wonder if there is any chance a plan is approved with DOJ/TCC rejecting the plan.  That seems like it would be ripe for appeal.  

Another question: why doesn't the doj declare the plan illegal now?

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding girls troops, initially the local girls' troop was forced to do joint activities due to lack of gear and adults. Now that they equal their brother troop, they prefer to do things on their own. In fact,  this year they are doing two different summer camps the same week. This is something the girls wanted as they believe the boys are holding them back.

 

Nice patrol method!

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

As Eagle1993 noted, in fairness, we need to recall the layers of complexity as we’re not dealing with a single monolithic entity, regardless how large. The 250+ LCs, 1000’s of COs and their major affiliated entities, time frame, innumerable properties, desire for non-party releases, 50 states + territories, pages and pages of insurance policies, and claim valuation variables make this a simultaneous code brown in a nursery of 500 babies with only two diapers and one nanny. Also, the way the article bundled the discussion, it appeared the contingent fees were being rolled up into the estate fees conversation. That was not clear and I think it bears clarifying. I won’t be the one to do it, however. My abacus is done busted. Anyone want to help a brother out? I’m tired...

I completely agree with you how complex this is. I would have thought the BSA's lawyers knew that as well and might have told them the quickest and cheapest way out of this would be an honest discussion with the TCC. I mean, if the biggest chunk of legal fees is from the BSA's lawyers and they have nothing to show after 2 years and 40% of the BSAs total value being wasted ....

The coalition and TCC aren't driving this, yet.

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

So, at least somebody in the media thought to take note of the Elephant.😬

But in most cases, other than this one, the legal fees are small potatoes compared to the value of the company. The example in the article was that for Enron it was 2% and for the BSA it's already 40%. 2% wouldn't have much impact on what survivors get.

I'd like to see that 40% split out by the various groups of lawyers. I have a hunch the BSA was sold a bill of goods by its own lawyers. Their plan has been to drag this out while trying shady deals with whomever told them what they wanted to hear. That doesn't seem to be working very well for anyone but the lawyers.

There absolutely was a problem with adults not following well thought out rules. However, there was still a failure and a scout was badly hurt. So maybe there isn't a need to add more adults but there is a need to have more adults follow the existing rules. The current model of watching an hour long video isn't working and it never has.

I started a thread about improving quality at the unit level because of this exact scenario. Adults at one unit get lax and all of a sudden every unit suffers, as well as a child. It's in everyone's interest to make sure everyone follows these rules. I have no idea how to make that happen in the BSA as it currently exists.

Welcome to the forum,  @ToKindle96

I agree that dual troops are essentially coed.

I have not seen any of the boys be idiots but it doesn't surprise me. If I were still SM and I did see it we would have a discussion.

I have also not seen the girls take over. They like their patrol. They also like a bigger troop with a bunch of patrols. It's doing more to promote patrol method than anything else.

Welcome to the forum, @Scouting412

I'm not sure boy led is a binary thing. Some scouts need more help as they learn. Where are they not leading?? Do they know what could be fun and are just not motivated or are they just out of ideas? Are they overwhelmed with how much needs to get done? Do they have a process to come up with a good calendar/plan and are stuck at some point or are they just flailing? Are they just afraid of failure?

My point is keep it boy led but figure a way to help them improve. That's your job description. I think you're going in the right direction.

6 hours ago, ThenNow said:

PS - Could there be (is there?) a different thread that talks about specific things BSA could do to foster transformational change, ....

Thank you for the laugh. There are many such bits of threads. There could be a sub forum.

Anyway, I will give you my thesis. I'm doing this on my phone so be patient.

The common complaint is that BSA seems to have forgotten what scouts really enjoy about scouting. Call it the core program. Or better yet, The Game. There are certainly other challenges like teaching adults, well, everything (outdoor skills, working with youth).

Where this comes from, from my perspective, is what we call silos and also really poor hiring and advancement practices. Look at the top levels of leadership and the silos are writ large. So is the board. The NEB is huge and has broken itself into lots of committees. The NEC is mostly a group of committee heads. It's not clear to me whether any committee is primarily responsible for The Game. So The Game has been ignored for a very, very long time. Even if there is a committee to protect the game from other committees, that would only mean one person on the NEC. The BSA itself also looks like these committees.

So, my thesis is that to fix the BSA the NEC needs to be replaced by the right people. All of the ideas of how to make scouting better will lead from that. Fixing advancement, summer camps, adult training, safety and all the rest will come from getting the right people in place that understand scouting. That starts with a real board.

The problem is the current members won't step down and the upper echelon of the BSA probably either doesn't have the power or knowledge on how to do that. It would likely take a true leader to convince the entire NEB to step down. Instead, we have a scape goat that was installed to take the fall (and is likely not legally liable for anything since he was a volunteer).

2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

First of all, I moved this sub thread to the appropriate thread.

Second, to answer your question, I'm not sure our opinions matter at this point. What will happen will happen. As an aside, I'm almost done reading War and Peace, which takes place in Russia during Napolean's invasions, and a common theme is large organizations have a mind of their own irrespective of what most leaders wish. 

So, as I watch the BSA, my guess is that while everyone will blame the bankruptcy and covid on whatever bad luck happens, it most likely stems from events and decisions made many decades ago. Case in point, back in the 40s and 50s there was Hillcourt and an organization that ran the BSA. They weren't on the same page. They never were. But Hillcourt was a force in that he wrote all the manuals that everyone used. It didn't matter what the rest of the organization did; Bad hiring; Inbred; Focused on fundraising. That organization created a monster of bad leadership that was kept at bay by Hillcourt's persona. But then he retired and the monster took over. While Hillcourt was good at writing and connecting to scouts, he couldn't change national. Furthermore, the 60s, millennial, and all the other cultural excuses people like to blame also didn't change much.

And the bankruptcy and covid aren't going to change much of anything either. A new Hillcourt could turn things around but the BSA can't let that happen. This is an organization that has a mind of its own. Irrespective of what any one wants, the organization will keep bringing in the likes of Mosby.

Sorry for sounding grim.

I moved a sub thread that had little to do with the actaual court case to

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Cover my expenses for travel, meals, accommodations, uniforms, etc. to fulfill the role, and I'm in..

Yes, but can you show the scouts how to gut a yak and sleep inside the carcass for an emergency shelter? Face it, that would make scouts cool.

10 hours ago, SSScout said:

Extra momentum when you tried to swing it all the way around the bar....   Not very easily possible with the present hard rubber seats. 

Unless you have a solid bar for the "ropes" of the swing it's impossible to do a loop on a swingset. But, I suppose not many students took physics back in your day, either.