MattR

Scout Spirit is an attitude and the SMART (acronym, not shouting) requirements for Eagle won't create it. What does create it is the scoutmaster, and it's very subjective.

 

That said, this is the crux of scouting, this is what parents want for their kids. Better training for scoutmasters is the only thing I can think of that would help.

 

If you like knots, para chord can be used for real cheap woggles. You need something less than 4'. http://www.troop54.com/knots/TurksHeadKnot/TurksHeadKnot.htm. The only challenge is figuring out the right diameter to start with so it ends up right. Sometimes you have to try a few times. If you like knots it's not a problem, if you don't, well, stick with pvc.

 

Something else that is very nice is, while making the turks head, between coming out and going back into the knot, is drop down a loop and tie an overhand knot in the loop. It looks just like the Good Turn Daily knot hanging off the bottom of the scroll in the scout badge.

Okay M&M, it's time for one of you to take the high road and step back from the keyboard. This conversation is not changing anyone's mind and brings nothing new to the table. Both of you have a strong desire to convince the other of something very important to you and, to be honest, neither of you will. What's left is the appearance that neither of you is willing to not have the last word. How do you teach your scouts to deal with another kid that won't stop arguing? Some times it's better to just walk away and know in your heart that you are right.

 

Anyway, please stop, before I start praying for Packsaddle to start singing

 

MattR, was your wife referring to volunteer help, or more along the lines of professional help? Good luck with you're plans, they sound good and worthwhile. Stosh

Strictly professional

 

I've been asking around for the volunteer type and this seems to have struck a chord.

I should learn to keep my mouth shut. I went to the meeting about rebuilding the camp and I gave them a synopsis of everything we talked about here, and they loved it. The good news is they want to start off small and slowly change it over a few years. The bad news is I have to figure it all out. Stay tuned.

Colorado.

 

Of course I need help, at least that's what my wife always tells me.

 

Since private messages don't work yet, send email to jsi6hgcw3oj6ceg@jetable.org. Then we can use regular email. That address is only good until 9:40PM Tuesday.

I currently have an exchange student from Germany staying with us. Yes, we do have guardianship. I'd ask the boy if he's interested in advancement. Most likely he has no idea what it's about and really is just interested in how Americans have fun and what camping is. He's here to learn our culture, not get Eagle. After one campout he may be done with it or he may really enjoy it. Give him a handbook, sign stuff off so he can be part of a patrol, and don't worry about it. He'll be gone before summer camp and will never get close to Eagle. Explain to him what the PoA means to us and ask him what he wants to do about it (stand respectfully or participate)

 

This is an opportunity for your troop. Ask if he'll give a presentation to the troop about his country. He does have a presentation prepared. I'd wait a month or two until he's a bit more comfortable with English. If he is from mainland China, he may be very subtle about talking about his government. Don't push him. But I've never heard of mainland Chinese exchange students.

Merlyn, I'm just curious. What drives you to carry the atheist torch so passionately?

 

Here's why I ask: I associate passion more with religious folks (emotional need to fill an unexplained void), and I associate reason with atheists (cold hard facts that God exists?).

 

But you seem to be passionately atheist, and I have trouble wrapping my mind around that.

I'd say there can be passion without religion, look at PETA, or the vitamin junkies at Whole Foods..

 

Passion can be a good thing, art, running, gardening, one's spouse, boy scouts.... Passion isn't the problem, the problem is when passion spills over into telling others how to live when they don't agree.

The only MB I had left to do for Eagle was Cit in the World, and I was living overseas at the time....

The sad part was I didn't even realize this until my son was close to Eagle. At the time I thought I had a long way to go. Totally clueless as a youth. Now, I fully support Eagle coaches

The only MB I had left to do for Eagle was Cit in the World, and I was living overseas at the time....

I should learn to keep my mouth shut. I went to the meeting about rebuilding the camp and I gave them a synopsis of everything we talked about here, and they loved it. The good news is they want to start off small and slowly change it over a few years. The bad news is I have to figure it all out. Stay tuned.

One scout from my troop went and he enjoyed it. Only negative was the miles to get to some events. He couldn't do some of the events because of the time required to get there. Maybe 20,000 cheap bikes spread all over the place next time?

 

What was great was he had no problem with the heat. At summer camp he ended up at the medic with pretty severe dehydration. It wasn't that he wasn't drinking enough water but wasn't getting enough salt. I had electrolyte tablets but he didn't like the taste as his stomach was already upset. He did ok with gatorade. When he was getting ready for jambo his mom offered him gatorade packets but he said he only wanted the electrolyte tablets "because Mr R said they were better." It warms my heart to know that once in awhile a kid listens to me.

I would contact the families that dropped out and request they donate the uniform to the pack closet. Probably a better use of your time. Best to just let them know the program is still there if they ever want to come back. Scouting isn't everyone. There are good parts of the cub program, but every day I grow closer to the "never ending nightmare of indoor crafts called cub scouts" view of the program. I know we are not supposed to "change" the program, but I have a hard time some days walking into a den meeting knowing it will not be "fun", at least for the more kinetic learners.

How about a game called "human pin ball." I'm not sure what the rules are but it sounds about right. We did human foosball and it was great. I tried a version of quidditch with 3 balls with webelos. That was a bad idea. Two boys looking at two different balls running into each other.

Having been the guy who wasted an incredible amount of time and effort chasing boys who need scouting don't do it.

 

 

Spend the effort on improving the program those who stayed.

A few years ago I hit the same realization that BD had, it may be better to spend time on those that want to get something out of the program. Maybe it would be better to send email out to all of the existing families and do roses and thorns with them. What do they like? What would they like to see improved?

Generally we have not had luck with car washes.........Of course some bad luck....The HS Flag corp was in bikini's up the block washing cars.....

JoeBob, if you combine the Bikini Girls with the Scouts then the cars will not get cleaned. There may be some clocks that get cleaned.

When I was a kid' date=' our troop was known for its "hammock boys," so a few years ago I went out and bought one o give the boys a laugh and maybe some inspiration. The first night I slept in it, I actually ended up on a picnic table to do the sleeping. The second time, I finally managed maybe 3 hours of sleep. 3rd time I was so kinked-up and stiff the whole next day I wanted to die. 4th time I said bollocks and it's been in its package since.[/quote']

 

Could be a number of reasons you didn't sleep well. You may have had the hammock strung too tight (the lines should be hanging at a 30 degree angle or so for best comfort for most people). Did you sleep at an angle?

 

In terms of Philmont, I think the main reservation against them is bears. Tarp camping is also not allowed at Philmont.

Bears? I've seen bears open tents wherever they want. They just run a claw down the side of the tent. What does a tent have that a hammock doesn't? Maybe the bear wants to sleep in the hammock?

 

Or is a hammock too much like a tarp? That begs the question, why not tarps?

I'd like to echo Packsaddle's opinion (not the whango tree thing, which is probably better then pack singing), only not just for the current circle of death. Back in January I put up a thread that referenced a bible story about how arguing to pulverize your opponent is not only wrong (people got swallowed up by the earth!) but also a waste of time. Arguing to understand each other and learn from each other, however, is fine. The difference is subtle but we need to back off, or at least be courteous when we cross that line. Since January we've crossed a lot of those lines.

 

What we're arguing about is whose beliefs are better, or wiser. There's an old saying that, to paraphrase, says wisdom without good deeds is not wisdom. We're arguing about wisdom and seem to be ignoring the good deeds. So how wise are we?

 

The amazing thing is that the beliefs we're arguing over have helped every one of us to do the right thing for the boys. We wouldn't be here if we didn't think we were helping kids. We're all doing good deeds.

 

The arguing is not a good deed. It's not helping us deal with single parent families or helicopter parents or selfish kids. In fact, it's causing problems. Eammon nearly left. What about AZMike and Beaveh? Anyone else we haven't heard from lately? Scouting in general and this website in particular should be a place where people help each other out. Sometimes it's hard to be friendly, courteous, and kind, but maybe we should just suck it up and take the high road. The kids might appreciate it.

My only suggestion is be a facilitator and not a professor. Our roundtables are horrible. Half of us only go because we know there's an after-meeting with golden foamy liquids. But, we are slowly working with the commissioner to improve.

Been a hammock boy for five years.

 

Pros:

1- EXTREMELY comfortable.

a- My back is fine in the morning. Don't have to climb out of bed, just swing my feet out.

b- .I don't snore in the curved posture (put a bolster under my knees)

c- Interior pockets for light and glasses. Hang a 'C' cell lantern under tarp for reading light.

2- Light weight,

3- Versatile, don't need no stinking level spot without roots and rocks. Quick set-up once you have your routine down.

4- Can be inexpensive - $45 hammock and a $10 tarp:

http://www.rei.com/product/736088/byer-moskito-traveller-hammock

 

Cons:

1- Have to cover your pack separately. (And close it when you retire.)

2- Carry a few extra ropes to adjust for trees.

3- I'm not good for below 30 degrees. Double Thermarests keep the backside warm, but my shoulders push so hard against the sides that they make a thin spot. At 25 degrees this past March, I just had to let my shoulders freeze.

Summer backpacking sounds like an interesting use of this. I don't know much about them but am curious. I use a syl-nylon tarp and sleep on the ground. It would be nicer to just move it all up a couple of feet. I've read that you can sleep on your side or even stomach if you sleep at an angle to the tarp. Doesn't that make it harder to get insulation underneath? Can you hang a down blanket underneath? My pad, which isn't that big, is really big compared to a lot of things I carry and getting rid of that would be a real bonus..

Jblake, I agree with you, absolutely. The selfish should be balanced by the selfless. That's a well rounded scout.

 

What can the BSA do? Based on JTE and the Venture rewrite, I don't see anything useful.

 

I like what you're ideas are, but they can't be requirements and check boxes. As you said, a culture change is needed. The only way I can see that is if the adults truly understand what the methods are and also how to implement them.

 

I'd like to see better training or information for scoutmasters. The scoutmaster handbook is a nice introduction but it could go a lot deeper into the methods of scouting. Not just a paragraph for each method but at least a chapter, as well as how the methods work together and how to get them working in a troop. The patrol method section could include a good description of what leadership is and how to develop it. I would really like to see such a manual and I know many other scouters that would use it, too. The next best alternative is discussions like this website but often adults are trying to fix symptoms and not the underlying problem. Most adults want to do a good job, but they just don't know how.

"Would you agree that the advancement part of the program is easier for people to teach than the leadership part?"

 

Yes. I tell my scouts that the scout spirit requirement is the hardest one for them to get checked off. They don't believe me until they ask me to check it off.

 

"I'm thinking the easy cop out is to simply make check marks in boxes than it is to sit down and work with boys developing their character and leadership abilities."

 

It's even harder when you're not quite sure how to work with the boys to achieve this. My point is only that I barely understand how to do it right because I've never seen it done right, and I'm ahead of most SMs in my district. I'm ever so slowly getting the adults to understand what I'm trying to do and I barely understand. This forum is one of the best sources of information I have but even then it's not obvious how to do some things. For example, when people say let the scouts run it and get the adults out of there, they're missing a critical point that the adults and scouts need to trust each other. The scout needs to trust that the SM has his back and has trained him well and the SM has to trust that the boy is responsible and capable. I've seen boy-led translate into ignoring the younger scouts because the older scouts just want to have fun. Boy led but not what we want.

 

"the only time we haul out our copy of the Oath and Promise is when the boys do something wrong"

 

That's one thing we do a reasonable job with. At courts of honor I have time to recognize scouts for showing exemplary leadership and scout spirit. At the end of every campout I'll also call out scouts that have really helped out. I'm not sure if it's enough, though.

 

This is also more than just servant leadership. It's really about doing the right thing when it needs to be done. Not just knowing the right thing but doing it. Duty to God and country, others, and self. The scout has to pay attention enough to what's going on around him and step up when something needs doing. They can't wait for someone to ask them to help out, they need to see it on their own. It's an attitude, how do I teach an attitude? Is it just constant repetition? This is as much art as anything. We're working with kids. Again, I need help.

 

"If SL isn't going to start at the national level, at least let it start at the SM/adult level in the troops."

 

Yep.

Jblake, I agree with you, absolutely. The selfish should be balanced by the selfless. That's a well rounded scout.

 

What can the BSA do? Based on JTE and the Venture rewrite, I don't see anything useful.

 

I like what you're ideas are, but they can't be requirements and check boxes. As you said, a culture change is needed. The only way I can see that is if the adults truly understand what the methods are and also how to implement them.

 

I'd like to see better training or information for scoutmasters. The scoutmaster handbook is a nice introduction but it could go a lot deeper into the methods of scouting. Not just a paragraph for each method but at least a chapter, as well as how the methods work together and how to get them working in a troop. The patrol method section could include a good description of what leadership is and how to develop it. I would really like to see such a manual and I know many other scouters that would use it, too. The next best alternative is discussions like this website but often adults are trying to fix symptoms and not the underlying problem. Most adults want to do a good job, but they just don't know how.

I don't think it's a tradeoff on advancement mill vs servant leadership, I think it's more the expectation and goals of the SM. If the SM wants every kid to get Eagle then the shortest path is an Eagle mill. If the goal is to have a ton of adventure then there's a different path. If the goal is to have boy led then servant leadership is important.

 

The challenge with the last option is it's difficult to implement. Part of this is the lack of training for adults and part is it just takes time working with kids. This, to me, is the crux of what scouts is about. To be a servant leader, or truly follow the Scout Oath and Law, you just gotta believe that being selfless is important. Getting Eagle has nothing to do with it, and I think this is jblake's comment. How you honestly believe it, as opposed to know you have to do it to advance, is nothing a book or class will cover. You have to see it and practice it. Kids are all over the spectrum on this one. Some get it right away and some are a struggle. It's all art.

When do you turn 18? I had a scout in my troop do a project without getting Council signatures and he is now doing it over. If you have the time then don't worry, you can just do the exact same plan again, only get the signatures first. If you don't have the time, you're at the Council's mercy. Tough lesson.

Given it would be the same project, 1.5 months is doable. You can't use any of the work you've done but you can use the plan. So my guess is any money that anyone has given you can't be used. So you need to find more donors. You asked about whether it showed enough leadership. That's always a tough call. It's not enough if someone gave you a plan and all you did was provide labor. I would say going around to collect donations would be good. Talk to the organizations that deliver them and find out what they need. They may ask for diapers. You don't know. You can also do a drive to collect from your neighborhoods. On one day put a grocery bag stapled to a list of what you need on 1000 door steps and a few days later drive by, pick them up, sort them, and make your bags. If you did something like that I'd say it was a good project.

 

I would ever so strongly suggest a meeting with your SM or someone from your troop, and the Council guy within the next day to get everyone on the same page, decide exactly what has to be done and when, and then start banging on it. Start making phone calls now. Forget about playing a Fall sport. Good luck.

When do you turn 18? I had a scout in my troop do a project without getting Council signatures and he is now doing it over. If you have the time then don't worry, you can just do the exact same plan again, only get the signatures first. If you don't have the time, you're at the Council's mercy. Tough lesson.

EagleScout441, jblake47 sure has a harsh way of saying things. However, if you look at what he said with the idea that he's really trying to help you be a better scout and not slam you, there are a lot of good ideas. I'll add my two cents as well.

 

I noticed that the original topic was that you wanted ideas on how to get the patrol method working better. Upon discussion this changed into the fact that you were being bypassed for being SPL by someone younger and less qualified. How about digging a little deeper? Danger ahead: This might hurt but my intentions are to help you do your best. You said the vote is just a popularity contest. Apparently you have never won the popularity contest. We both know that it should be more than a popularity contest but I think popularity is important. Leadership requires the skill to get others to do something. You have to motivate people to do something they might not want to do. Cleaning dishes, organizing a campout, showing up early to practice flags, .... Part of motivation involves making a connection with someone. If you're seen as just a guy that tells others what to do then there is no connection. You can ask them to do the best thing in the world but if there's no connection they will ignore you. If you're seen as the guy that can have fun with people and cares that they get what they want and also knows what's going on and also asks people to do things then that's different. First, there's a connection (you can have fun and you look out for them). So when you ask them to do something they will follow you.

 

As others have said, you have an opportunity here. Learn how to make a connection. You don't have to be the most popular, you just have to be one of them. Have fun with the scouts. Bring a deck of cards to a campout, teach the scouts stupid card games and play them in the tent until midnight. When they want to do something fun or silly, go along with them. Make a fool of yourself. By making the connection you will learn more about the scouts you want to lead. That will make you a better leader because you'll understand where they are coming from. They will also learn to trust that you have their best interests in mind. Then they will vote for you.

Our Council's camp in Gilmanton, NH is broken up into two parts, Hidden Valley and Camp Bell. HV is a traditional MB scout camp with the classes in the morning troop activities in the afternoon and we eat in the dining hall.

 

Camp Bell is a patrol camp with the scouts having to pick up their food and cook it at their site. The camp provides all the necessary kitchen equipment a standard menu is provided and they get a cookbook also. Only three problems occurred when we go and they are 1) The scouts trying to agree on how something is to be prepared, such as French toast or scrambled eggs and toast. 2) The 15 year old scout who's mom does everything for him and doesn't know how to even peal a vegetable. 3) I have to eat whatever they make because at Bell the scouts cook breakfast and dinner for the leaders. The leaders get together for lunch with the camp director and we cook our lunch.

 

At a pre-camp meeting the patrol leaders select what they want to do for the whole day. Say they choose waterfront for Tuesday then they spend the whole day at the waterfront

 

Our troop alternates camps each year. Some troops do both each year.

I'd be interested in what the patrol activities are.