MattR

Packsaddle, I could see how one survey would be better. I read that they are sending out 1.1 million surveys. With only 3 million scouts, that's real accurate. They'll know unit by unit.

 

The process is odd but I think it's slow for a reason. This is a big change. Change is hard. Maybe they're trying to minimize the fallout. All the talking and blogs and angry comments and grandstanding media sessions are just filler to give people time to come to terms with this. Some will go no matter what but a lot will probably realize that scouts is still a good thing and hopefully figure out how to work the system to get where they want. I don't want to see people leave, no matter their view on this.

 

To me, this process started when the chairman of the board, or whomever it was, said he wanted to change things from the inside, and didn't get replaced right away. That's when I knew this was coming.

Well Packsaddle, I just got a survey and it's pretty much what you wanted:

 

1) Should the National Organization remove the BSA's membership restriction regarding sexual orientation?

 

2) Would this change to the membership standards affect your involvement in Scouting?

 

3) If there was no change to the membership standards, would your involvement in Scouting be affected?

 

4) In your opinion, what is in the best long-term interest of the BSA regarding the issue to remove the organization's membership restrictions regarding sexual orientation?

 

5) How are you affiliated with Scouting?

 

 

Question 4 was open and the rest were multiple choice. I suspect leaders are getting different questions than parents. Makes sense.

Packsaddle, you must be old to be making Ross Perot jokes. And I must be old to understand them.

 

I applaud them for asking any questions at all. I'd rather see what the parents of scouts say than those that would be just fine with destroying the BSA to win an argument.

 

I think the clarity comes from forcing people to think about real situations. I doubt most parents understand the relationship between the CO, the unit, and the council, so using scenarios seems like a good idea.

 

Unfortunately this whole thing has little to do with logic, so there's no point in reasoning about it. You're welcome to toss all of my arguments. I won't be offended.

Paraphrasing the questions, I read:

 

1) Can gays be in scouts?

 

2) Can gays be morally straight?

 

3) Can gays tent with others?

 

4) Can leaders of cubscouts be gay?

 

5) Should the CO be able to decide about gays?

 

6) Can a gay leader go camping with boys?

 

7) Can scout adult leaders be gay?

 

8) Can gays be in scouts?

 

9) Should the CO be able to decide about gays?

 

10&11) What's bothering you?

 

12) Is the issue of gays a core part of scouting?

 

13) Will you leave if it doesn't go your way?

 

There's a lot of similarity between the questions and questionaires often do this to make sure they get a consistent answer.

 

1, 2, and 8 ask whether gay scouts should be allowed

 

4, 6, and 7 ask whether gay adults should be allowed

 

12 is a combination of 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, and 8

 

5 and 9 are about whether the CO should decide

 

10 and 11 are a chance to talk

 

3 is about fear for your child

 

13 is about how you will deal with the change

 

Looks like a pretty solid survey to me. I'm not sure what else they can ask for considering they're sending out a million of these.

 

Too late, I've already made plenty of mistakes. But I know exactly what you're talking about. Troop culture is very hard to change.

 

 

Barry, thanks for the ideas. I agree with most of what you said. I like the time and "everyone is accountable". I've done it some but it could be more.

 

A lot of what you're talking about is problem solving. ILST mentions communication, planning, and EDGE, but not problem solving. The PL and SPL handbook talk about conflict resolution and problem solving, why not ILST?

"Merlyn, you're not paying attention."

 

Yes, I am. You're clearly bigoted against atheists.

 

"]Someone who is truly atheist cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others"

 

Someone who is truly Jewish cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

Someone who is truly Catholic cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

Someone who is truly Muslim cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

 

Bigot.

 

You are a PERFECT example of how the BSA encourages bigotry against atheists. And people criticized ME for removing school-sponsored BSA units...

If I had a couple of tenderfoot scouts that sounded like the two of you I'd put them in the circle of death and wait for just one to stagger out (no, not really) or sit you down and make you shake hands. This falls under the category of a bad argument. Neither one of you is going to convince the other of anything. So give it up, make your peace, and move on.

Hi Barry, I'm asking because I'd like to modify the existing syllabus. Mostly I want to extend some of the ideas with concrete examples. The duty roster is an example of making delegation easier to do.

 

When I ask PLs what their biggest problem is it's almost always dealing with a scout that won't help out. There are lazy kids, self centered kids, and kids that want to check the boundaries. Fortunately it's not many but even one, for a 14 year old PL, is hard to deal with and it ruins the cohesiveness of the patrol. The average teenager doesn't want to rock the boat so his first tendancy is to back off and avoid confrontation. That's what I see anyway. That's the easy solution but does nothing for building a team or learning leadership. There are better ways for the PL to solve the problem and ways to teach that is what I'm looking for.

 

Leadership is about gaining respect. It's part servant leadership and part Machiavellian. Confrontation done the right way is a useful skill. Confrontation done the wrong way can be seen everywhere. This isn't described in the ILST. Respect is barely mentioned and how to confront self centered scouts in a positive manner is nowhere to be seen.

Hi Spiney, I'd be interested in seeing your syllabus for scout leadership training. I've struggled with using the standard syllabus because it seems too vague for a scout. How to set up a duty roster is concrete. The importance of communication doesn't really help with a scout that doesn't want to help clean dishes. The vague concepts are important but there are some common situations that a patrol leader should know how to handle.

A new rabbi comes to a well-established congregation. Every week on the Sabbath, a fight erupts during the service. When it comes time to recite the Shema prayer, half of the congregation stands and the other half sits. The half who stand say, "Of course we stand for the Shema. It’s the credo of Judaism. Throughout history, thousands of Jews have died with the words of the Shema on their lips." The half who remain seated say, "No. According to the Shulchan Aruch (the code of Jewish law), if you are seated when you get to the Shema you remain seated."

 

The people who are standing yell at the people who are sitting, "Stand up!" while the people who are sitting yell at the people who are standing, "Sit down!" It’s destroying the whole decorum of the service, and driving the new rabbi crazy. Finally, it’s brought to the rabbi’s attention that at a nearby home for the aged is a 98-year-old man who was a founding member of the congregation. So, in accordance with Talmudic tradition, the rabbi appoints a delegation of three, one who stands for the Shema, one who sits, and the rabbi himself, to go interview the man. They enter his room, and the man who stands for the Shema rushes over to the old man and says, "Wasn’t it the tradition in our synagogue to stand for the Shema?"

 

"No," the old man answers in a weak voice. "That wasn’t the tradition."

 

The other man jumps in excitedly. "Wasn’t it the tradition in our synagogue to sit for the Shema?"

 

"No," the old man says. "That wasn’t the tradition."

 

At this point, the rabbi cannot control himself. He cuts in angrily. "I don’t care what the tradition was! Just tell them one or the other. Do you know what goes on in services every week — the people who are standing yell at the people who are sitting, the people who are sitting yell at the people who are standing—"

 

"That was the tradition," the old man says.

 

This is a good joke and it also reminds me of everything I've read about the Boy Scouts over the past two weeks.I found this joke along with a discussion about arguing. There are good arguments, bad arguments, and some arguments that go on forever. Good arguments are those where both sides are seeking common ground and both sides can give some to get there. Bad arguments are those where each side is only interested in winning, and bludgeoning the other side is fair game. The above joke came along with an example of a bad argument from the Torah. There's a guy by the name of Korach that is not happy with Moses and starts a big argument and tries to throw out Moses. He's only interested in winning and tries to get everyone on his side. He uses a bad style of argumentation and consequently, in great biblical fashion, is swallowed by the earth.

 

We, the Boy Scouts, might not be swallowed by the earth if we keep up the bad arguments but we may be swallowed up by those that don't care about us. Outside of scouting there are two loud camps arguing over gays and scouting. Neither care about the boys nearly as much as they care about winning. Both hate each other. Both are just trying to be louder. Neither will listen. It's just like the joke. Except both would be fine with tearing apart the BSA if only they could win their argument.

 

We're the only ones that have our best interest in mind. We care about the kids and we care about scouting. We know it works. We know how to work with boys and we have a proven history that goes on longer than all but a few governments in the world have had constitutions. In this day and age of a mentality that winning is the only thing, the Boy Scouts have something to offer that nobody else has. Personally, I would like to tell both Glaad and the Southern Baptists to back off and let us figure this out.

 

Some may say we have no vote but I'm guessing, of the 1400 people voting, many of them are reading this website. I know of one of those 1400. I'm sure others here know plenty more. Some may also say that letting the loser form the rainbow scouts or the American heritage scouts is fine, but the chance of that working is slim. Some say to just hope the vote is no and we can get back to where we were. That's a great short term solution but everyone knows which way society is going. There will be more votes down the road.

 

We may as well address this problem than let someone else do it for us. Let's take this as an opportunity to show leadership to the rest of the country on how to agree to disagree and move forward. The majority of the country would like to see that. Let's turn lemons into lemonade. Isn't that what we teach scouts?

 

I don't know what the common ground looks like but anyone that wants to keep their values and keep the Boy Scouts together is welcome around my campfire. I know I can't change your values and I know your values might not look exactly like mine, but if you believe in what Boy Scouts can do for a young man, I'll stick up for you and your values. I would rather have an argument with you forever, so boys can keep growing, then win an empty argument and watch the BSA whither away.

 

Man, this is even weirder! I tried to write a response to Eagledad, and I wound up in a post by AZMike! What's going on? Where am I? I'm lost in cyberspace!

 

Packsaddle

Welcome to the Twilight Zone. Do do Do do.

I just had a scout like that in my troop. For three years, if there was a problem, he was part of it. From not helping out, to teasing new scouts, to almost burning down a 150 year old historical site. I tried finding something he'd be interested in, I tried talking to him, and finally I decided he just wasn't interested in scouts. He'd bring friends with him and they'd join the troop, only to get into trouble with him and eventually drop out. At one point I asked the PLs what their biggest fear was and they said this kid. We roll played how to deal with him in a respectful manner. I'm not sure if they ever did any of this but the kid finally realized the scouts didn't like him much either. He transfered out of the troop into one less active. Apparently he's trying to get them to do some things we used to do but he wasn't interested in. Hopefully it will work out for him. I always told him he had great leadership potential, he just needed to put others before himself.

Bear Claw, I absolutely agree with you that going from adult led to boy led requires a lot more than what the training offers. I'm also going through this. Here are my 2 cents.

 

First of all, boys need to feel like they own it, that success or failure really depends on them. For older scouts this is just as important as having fun. If scouts is going to compete with all the other things it needs to be meaningful. They know a joke POR when they see it. Librarian where nobody needs a book? PL where the SPL and/or adults do everything? Find things that really need to be done. I started with PLs.

 

Not only do the patrols have to run a few troop meetings but the PLs have to take care of their patrols. We set aside one meeting a month where patrols go do their own thing. The PL has to make it happen. We have a lot of competitions and I tell the PLs this is a test of their leadership more than a test of their patrol. Once we're comfortable with that I want the PLs to be responsible for getting scouts through lower ranks. They'll present them their certificate at the COH. I'm working for the day where a parent goes up to a PL and thanks him for helping their son earn a rank. Things will be easy after that.

 

Any POR also needs very clear expectations. Some scouts will give you just a bit more than is expected to get by. Some scouts will give you just a bit less than what is expected to get by. Few scouts will be self motivated to do their best. So set clear, reasonable, expectations. There's nothing wrong with saying to a Life scout that he's expected to help run the troop.

 

I'm finding that boys do not understand teamwork. They understand getting along with each other and playing fair (everything you learn in kindergarten) but they don't understand each scout having a job to do and depending on each other. My mantra now is everyone has a job to do. If the PL is doing his job perfectly he won't have anything to do.

 

All of this said, scouts also need help learning how to do this. They need mentors. Boys can not remember anything. They can not see very far into the future. They need a mentor asking lots of questions. Not yes/no questions but what have you done? What are your concerns? It's the blind leading the blind because they're clueless. The mentor doesn't do the work, the mentor talks to the boy and the boy does the work. Getting good mentors is not trivial. Adults that would rather do it themselves make lousy mentors. It takes patience.

 

I find the scout leadership training has little to do with leadership. It's too abstract. The boys are not mature enough to take a game about communication and relate it to getting a scout to help set up camp. Rather, I found an old style leadership training where the PLs form a patrol with the SPL and SM and they go camping. First time I did it I was the PL. Best training ever. Everyone had a job to do. I had fun. If I get the same SPL next time, he will be the PL and I will be the APL.

 

Older scouts need high adventure trips. We also try to do a couple of high adventure weekends during the year as well. 9th and 10th graders might not be motivated to do serious backpacking until they see it done. 11th and 12th graders are more willing to try that. We also do less strenuous high adventure trips.

 

Scouts don't know what they don't know so asking them what they would like to do is more complicated. It's easier to come in with several ideas and ask them what they think of them. Maybe that will get the discussion going.

 

If a scout doesn't want to be in scouts, encourage him to leave. Sure, you have to talk to him a lot to figure this out but if you say this is what it means to be an Eagle scout in this troop and that boy doesn't want to do that, then don't let him stick around. It's amazing how one miserable scout can convince a bunch of other scouts to be miserable when they really want to do a good job. A lot of kids are afraid at this age of being who they want to be and they just go along with whatever. If things are going great the whatever can be very powerful, but if you're trying to turn an aircraft carrier, it's a challenge.

 

Finally, it's a slow process. You're trying to create a new culture within the troop. Each step takes a couple of years of constant perseverance to make it take hold. You have to train the adults and get their buy-in as well as the scouts. You have to make adjustments along the way. Once the culture is in place it will be self sustaining.

 

The day before the postponement of the decision was announced, we heard from one of our LDS Stakes that they were not going to recharter their units if the decision went to change the policy. That is 35% of our units. Take that for what it is. They are now rechartering but it could all be up in the air again in May.

There are LDS troops in Canada. Also, I wonder if the local LDS stake or ward has a say in the matter.

Why can't BSA just have a form of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? I mean, as Scouters we never wear our religion, politics or sexual orientation on our sleeve, so why this need to be "openly gay" in Scouting. I am not "openly heterosexual" when at Scouting events, so why wouldn't don't ask, don't tell work? I think this will open up a whole can of worms which is being covered in another thread. Guys not wanting to tent with a gay scout, harassement, teasing, etc. I mean, we are talking teenage boys here...not the most sensible lot in the world to begin with.

 

I sort of feel like Dana Carvey doing his "Grumpy Old Man" bit, but somethings are just better left alone and unsaid. We should be focusing on leadership development and teaching these kids outdoor skills. Having openly anything that is not Scouting is a distraction from that mission.

That's currently what it is. They took the "are you gay" question off of all the forms years ago.

Change is hard. There probably would be an initial drop but nobody knows how much. A lot of people said they'd move to Canada or secede right before the last two presidents were elected and I'm not sure either did.

 

I suspect there are a lot of boys out there that would like what we have to offer but don't really know what that is because it's filtered by their parents who also don't know. National recognizes this and has said they don't control the message. They're right about that. Right now the message is gays. It doesn't matter what side you're on. For outsiders that want things to stay the same they see Boy Scouts as the last place they can put their kids. For outsiders that want a change they see it as a place with bigots. They're both wrong. For most of us that volunteer we see it as fun with a purpose, nobody talks about gays. I'd like to see the message get back to fun with a purpose.

 

If the boy scouts can gain control of the message I think the membership will rise. Right now, the message couldn't be worse.

AZMike, I agree that scouting likes old fashioned skills. No doubt using cast iron is nothing to brag about at school. But I don't know any parents that wouldn't like their kids to know responsibility, teamwork, being selfless, how to take care of yourself, service, problem solving, .... Service is a popular thing now with younger people. Both my son and daughter are going to central america over spring break to help out. Two very different programs. They just want an adventure and someone else is willing to pay for it (nope, not me). Adreneline junkies like the outdoors. Hiking the grand Canyon is flat out cool. Tall ship sailing is so much better than a movie. Kids find more fun with the oddest things in the outdoors. To paraphrase a movie, we have the right stuff.

 

The churches can be the flash point of the culture war. It's not for me. I want to be able to walk into any school and be welcomed by all the teachers as someone that can help their students. Now, I can't even borrow a school parking lot for two hours while we collect food for the foodbank without the principal complaining.

 

We may have to agree to disagree on a few things, but there is a future for scouting.

Change is hard. There probably would be an initial drop but nobody knows how much. A lot of people said they'd move to Canada or secede right before the last two presidents were elected and I'm not sure either did.

 

I suspect there are a lot of boys out there that would like what we have to offer but don't really know what that is because it's filtered by their parents who also don't know. National recognizes this and has said they don't control the message. They're right about that. Right now the message is gays. It doesn't matter what side you're on. For outsiders that want things to stay the same they see Boy Scouts as the last place they can put their kids. For outsiders that want a change they see it as a place with bigots. They're both wrong. For most of us that volunteer we see it as fun with a purpose, nobody talks about gays. I'd like to see the message get back to fun with a purpose.

 

If the boy scouts can gain control of the message I think the membership will rise. Right now, the message couldn't be worse.

The 70% in favor of a local option here matches that of the polled number from the councils. With 70 samples here and 294 council samples (364 total), and 1,039,825 adults in the bsa (from wikipedia), the margin of error is just over 5%. This assumes the poll is random. Still, this is a surprising number to me.

 

Maybe the silver lining of the way this has been handled is that it will start the conversation within the boy scouts. That could make 16 weeks waiting a good thing in the long term.

MomToEli, I saw it in the "So, does this change the discussion?" thread from Lodge 489 on page 2.

The 70% in favor of a local option here matches that of the polled number from the councils. With 70 samples here and 294 council samples (364 total), and 1,039,825 adults in the bsa (from wikipedia), the margin of error is just over 5%. This assumes the poll is random. Still, this is a surprising number to me.

 

Maybe the silver lining of the way this has been handled is that it will start the conversation within the boy scouts. That could make 16 weeks waiting a good thing in the long term.

I think you need to login before you can vote.

Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness. Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, waiting for National to make a decision.

 

Time for some Cheerful.

 

There are two underlying scenarios. The first is they knew they had the vote before hand. The second is they really didn't know the vote. Given the first, this is just a way for the shock to be accepted with the minimum fallout. Some people are upset to the point of making rash decsions. Given the second scenario, this is what they said it is, namely they want to ask more questions. So, I guess it makes sense.

 

I just hope they ask questions of those that work with the scouts.

I don't think I'm over analyzing this. My methods usually work; ask a lot questions and listen. I do appreciate everyone's comments.

 

My plan is starting to gel, even though it will likely change. It is going to be a slow process. I'll start by talking to the CC as the two of us really are the wise men. I'm fairly sure we agree and it is nuanced. Next, we should ask those that do the most work in the troop. They're the ones that have the boys interest in mind and believe the most about what scouting is about. If we get some consensus then great. If I'm in the minority then I have my exit plan. If I'm still around then we'll talk to the CO. I don't want to leave it up to the CO as they don't understand scouting. Certainly they'll have the final say but this is a time to be proactive. We'll iterate and adapt. What we won't do is have a big meeting, but parents can certainly talk to me or the CC one on one.

 

I think we do need a goal of having answers to basic questions. We're the largest troop in the council and people will ask. The CO will ask. While I like the idea of saying we'll figure it out when it happens, and we will say that when people start asking about odd cases, that just isn't going to go well for general questions. The CO won't go for that.

 

Another issue that I didn't mention before is tradeoffs. A few people said don't rip everything apart over rare or non existent situations. Good point. On the other hand, National has put us in the position of having to decide an admittedly major hot button issue with no help whatsoever. I guess that just means this whole thing is an opportunity to model leadership for the scouts.

 

And now, I need to finish packing for our winter campout. Needed in more ways than one.

I would like to be prepared for the change that might come down the pipe if national says each unit is to decide for itself what it's stance is on gay scouts and adults. I live in a swing county of a swing state and I do not see an easy road for my troop. My goal is to find a good fit for every scout in my troop so they and their families are comfortable with their troop. There are assumptions and issues and I'd like to understand what they are and have some idea of how to steer my troop through this possible change.

 

What I don't want to do is use this thread to change someone's opinion about what is the right thing for the BSA to do regarding gays. There are numerous (thousands?) of other threads that you can use for that. I'm just trying to do my job and play the cards I've been dealt.

 

So, assumptions and issues, in no particular order (I want to know if there are things I'm missing, or how you might handle this):

 

Assumption: Changing parents opinions. It's not going to happen. Some people are adamant about this issue. Everyone has an opinion but I'm not sure how many people are passionate about it.

 

Issue: Civility. The problem I see is the same problem I sometimes see on this website, namely people getting uncivil. I think any discussion needs to be preceded by talking about our common goals for the boys, why we believe in scouts, and mention that anger and trying to change people is not permitted. Let's be civil while we go through whatever change is needed.

 

Issue: "Everyone in the troop has the same opinion as I do." I know for a fact that my troop is spread across the spectrum. Many people I'm not sure about. Whether or not they are active in their place of worship has little to do with it. But I think there's going to be some surprise when people find out where everyone stands.

 

Issue: Finding out where everyone in the troop stands on the issue. Eventually we need to ask, don't we? How do we ask while keeping things civil. If we ask in a big room it could easily get ugly. Everyone believes in what scouting can do and that's what holds us together. What happens when everyone finds out where everyone stands on these issues?

 

Issue: Moving on. If we're going to split I want everyone to end up where they're comfortable and their boys can still get the best out of scouting. I assume it really depends on what parents want for their sons before we figure out where it might lead. It could be that the split mirrors national opinion (roughly 50/50) and we split the troop. It could be a 90/10 split and I need to find a home for the 10 (of which I might be a part).

 

Issue: Parents in the middle. What if parents haven't really thought about it and are happy with the way things are now, don't really mind gays, but are uncomfortable with how an openly gay person might influence their sons. Change is hard, what is a way that might help that change?

 

Issue: The CO's opinion and relationship with the unit. In some cases the CO runs the troop and owns the gear. So their opinion is important. In some cases, like mine, the CO only provides space. So if there were unanimous agreement within the troop but they don't agree with the CO then the troop has to find another CO.

 

Issue: Tenting. Scouts can't be on their own. If boys and girls can't tent together in crews, can gay scouts tent together? Can a gay and straight scout tent together? I'm sure they don't care, but what will the parents say? Do we need permission from parents for who can tent with whom? This is a nightmare.

 

Issue: Sexuality. I've always had the opinion that sex, at any level or type, is not appropriate in scouts. I don't care about orientation. If a parent starts bragging about his conquests I'll shut it down. There's enough crap on tv. Scouting should be free from it. Is this a reasonable approach?

 

The bottom line is what's a process that will help this change while keeping everyone civil and doing the best for the boys?

Moosetracker, good idea about spinning a new thread. But what forum? There needs to be a new category: Working with Parents. In the meantime I replied to the newspaper that it was too early to talk, and asked if they would they be interested in joining us on our winter campout this weekend to learn what scouts is mostly about. I didn't get a response. I just blew my 15 minutes.

Would appreciate some guidance to my previous post. I'm already getting calls from the local paper.