MattR

Now is the time for the SENIOR PL to step in and clarify to the lazy PL one's duty to their patrol members. If a PL is not taking care of his boys, then he needs to be replaced with someone who will.

Sounds good. So you're talking to the SPL and the SPL handles this as he sees fit. The assumption is that the SPL "gets it"

I don't, but my SPL's responsibility means he steps up and clarifies the purpose of scouting to the PLC. If the SPL needs some guidance on how that is to be addressed, a SMC can be held for this specific issue.

"If the SPL needs some guidance." What if he needs more than guidance? What if just flat out doesn't care? If he's the one that started the idea of going to the mall and is adamant about it. Maybe he just wants to push your buttons. Further, the rest of the troop goes along with it just to see what happens. Then will you replace the SPL? (and I assume this is after trying repeatedly to get him understand what's going on.) If you would, and the boy knows it, then in essence you could step in and tell him what to do.

Remember the PLC doesn't dictate to the PL's and so the 11 year-olds can do what they wish. If they want to camp and forego the mall, more power to them, they show more scout spirit than the older boys who are looking for an excuse to do something other than scouting. The older boys will need to reconsider their advancement on scout spirit if they basically don't have any.

​If the 11 year olds can do what they wish then what happens when they don't want to wash dishes? There is a standard and it sounds like you would be the one enforcing it the next time they want something signed off. Doesn't this get back to my point that there are things the SM decides and things the scouts decide? The bigger issue seems to be clearly specifying the distinction and staying true to it.

You hit the nail on the head with your last comment. "So how do you know if they really like it the way it is or just don't think they can really make a change?" Ask them! Most scouts want opportunities for growth and change.

I ask them all the time. They rarely want to change anything. It's frustrating. The place I see the most confidence in taking ownership is with the troop guides. It's always been this way. Maybe it's obvious what the new scouts need.

I make it clear to all my new scouts that the day will come when they blurt out to someone in authority, "When are you going to start treating me like an adult?" The standard answer is, "When you start acting like one." BUT who teaches them how to act like one???? To me this is what scouting is all about. I teach them that the buddy system in Tenderfoot #9 has very little to do with hanging out in two's when one is in the woods and/or at the swimming hole. It's the dynamics of getting along with another person, i.e. marriage. I teach them that as time progresses and they become PL, it has very little to do with running the show, but has a lot to do with taking care of a small group of people and meeting their needs as they grow. This is what family is all about. The there's the troop as a whole and the lessons learned are not just for scouting, but show how they relate in their communities and on the job.

​Good points.

Stosh and Barry, I'm not sure I understand the differences between the two of you on this.

Let's say a PL tells everyone at the PLC that he's going to take his patrol on a hike. But he gets lazy, blows it off, and at the last moment scraps the hike and plays video games instead. How would each of you handle this?

If the PLC decides that the outdoors is just a bore and they'd rather take the troop to the mall to hang out and check out the girls, even though the 11 year olds aren't interested, how do you handle this?

If a boy in a patrol is just not advancing, you talk to the PL, and he just doesn't care, what do you do?

These are all examples of typical teenage stuff that just drives a lot of adults to step in and start ordering kids around. Is there a minimum standard to letting the boys decide? My view has always been there's a very clear, simple distinction between what the boys decide and what the adults decide. I'm not sure that's so easy to implement. I encourage my scouts to make changes, tell me what they'd like to change, or don't like, and they don't seem to want to change anything. So how do I know if they really like it the way it is or just don't think they can really make a change?

To me, there seems to be a big gap between the BSA's potential and where it is now. Some units are doing great and a lot are blundering along. For those that are doing great they probably sell themselves irrespective of whatever national does. Giving the others what they need would help a lot. Win locally and everyone can ignore what the global wing nuts think or say.

I've always thought scouting is this strange mix of things that just works. It's character and adventure and leadership and fun. And it's not just sports or STEM or band. It's well rounded where a lot of other things are focused on very narrow fields. I think that's both a strength and a weakness. A strength because the outcomes are boys that are well rounded and a weakness because we seem to be a society focused on specializing and winning. Instead, scouts gets to the crux of life. Be happy and helpful when the crap hits the fan. I'm not sure how to put that in PC speak but it is enticing to me as a parent.

What you're trying to do is the right thing. A lot of the training assumes you already have a boy led/patrol method troop. But it's a lot harder to transform a troop. A couple of years ago the light bulb went off with me and it's been a very slow trial and error approach for me. It would be really nice if national put together info on how to do this. Some lessons I've learned:

Get the best scouts as patrol leaders. Too often it's, nah, I don't

want to do it, it's your turn. We have a nomination process, like OA, to even be eligible to be PL. Also, one ASPL is more than enough. More than that is just dead weight.

Mutual respect between adults and scouts is paramount. I fight for my PLs. Trust goes two ways and without it, nothing else will work. Respect their opinion and ask for it often.

Make a very clear distinction between what the scouts are responsible for and what the adults are responsible for. The simpler that list the better. If there's confusion then the boys will always back off and give the adults the leadership. You set the boundaries. Within those boundaries, stay out. Do you really need to decide when the boys wake up? Or do you just need to let them know when flags is, and that they will be there?

Older scouts need purpose. It's more than just having fun. Older boys that don't have something important to do, and not just made up responsibility, will fade away. At the same time, older scouts do need some time to hang with each other. It's like ice cream, too much is bad, too little is harsh, but there is a sweet spot.

Spend time having fun with your scouts so when you have to tell them something they don't want to hear they'll still listen. If all you do is bring them bad news they will tune you out.

There are different leadership styles and every boy is different. There are different ways to create enthusiasm and it's up to the boy leader to figure it out.

Most boys know the right thing to do. Whether they do it is another thing. So your job is to get them to decide what it is they should do, and then hold them to it.

Boys are incredible at forgetting anything. Text messages and email are lost in the ether. The message needs to be repeated constantly. A change of anything seems to take at least 6 months.

Boys can also create fun out of most anything, so give them time for it to develop.

As other's have mentioned, leadership is about teamwork and caring about the team. Caring about others is the central point of the scout oath. Repeat this before you ask them to solve a people problem. Teamwork is about giving everyone a job that's important. Yep, the main job for the new scout may be nothing more than carrying the patrol flag but if it makes him part of the team then it's good, and it's one less thing for the PL to do (except he will have to remind him for awhile).

It's hard to lead a dysfunctional team. Give the leader scouts that will listen. Or at least make sure it's not that every kid in the patrol can't focus on even eating without wondering off in the weeds (been there).

Come up with some way to measure, even if it's qualitatively, how well things are going. I came up with a leadership rubric just to explain what I was looking for and I graded the troop for all sorts of categories. It works very well to explain what boy led means.

300' is a good idea, even if it's only 100.

The program is important. I'm on a challenge kick. Skills that can be improved on, new ideas. Every campout shouldn't be seal training but there is a tendency to get into ruts. Most scouts don't understand the creative process so you might have to help them generate ideas they can pick from. Heck, the scouts are better than the adults in my troop when it comes to good ideas.

Since you're not the SM, maybe you could volunteer to work with one patrol as a patrol mentor. I guess my point is that the training material you mention will not make a leader. Going out and leading will make a leader. Yes, there are some good tidbits in the training but that's all they are, tidbits. Another thing is that words don't soak in to boys. A classroom where you pontificate and play games that simulate real scenarios will not help a boy become a leader. You can't tell him to be enthusiastic. Show him. Give him a problem to solve. Show him the skills. Make him go do it. Ask him how it went. Repeat.

Ask for help from someone you respect. Have fun. Expect things to go wrong. It's a slow process. Ignore those that complain and are unwilling to help. Find adults you can work with and share your ideas. This is hard doing it alone. Good luck. Let us know what works.

Big. Huge. Red. Flags. But at the same time I'd like to buy you a beer because you obviously care about the boys. Some questions I'd ask first are what do the families think of this? A problem that needs solving? They don't care? They like the CC and husband? Next, other than the boys, what's keeping you there? Where do you meet? What is it about this CO that you like?

If the CO doesn't matter and the boys are all that matter, and everyone agrees with this then here is one option, I'm sure there are more. Find someone that would be a new CC. Between the two of you, find a new CO. Create a new troop and for those that want to follow you, help them transfer to the new troop. It costs $1 per person. You lose the money the old troop had, but that's probably nothing because the finances are a mess. You also lose the gear. But you have a very clean break. Then you can get back to being a SM. Good luck, and welcome to the forum.

Maybe we should just change Reverent to Humble. Here's a nice quote I like: Humility -- true humility -- is one of the most expansive and life-enhancing of all virtues. It does not mean undervaluing yourself. It means valuing other people. It signals a certain openness to life's grandeur and the willingness to be surprised, uplifted, by goodness wherever one finds it.... Humility, then, is more than just a virtue: it is a form of perception, a language in which the "I" is silent so that I can hear the "Thou", the unspoken call beneath human speech, the Divine whisper within all that moves, the voice of otherness that calls me to redeem its loneliness with the touch of love. Humility is what opens us to the world.

Maybe the first talk should be with your son. If your son had fun staying up until 3 or 4am then maybe a discussion about consequences is appropriate. If he couldn't get to sleep because of a couple of self centered scouts, then that's a different thing. It could be time to coach him on some options. Is there anyone he could talk to about asking the scouts to keep quiet? Is there an option for him to sleep outside in a tent? Maybe with you? At least until he gets bigger or finds another buddy to share a tent with? My guess is the SM understands that the average 11 year old can't deal with 3am nights. If he said it was rough then he probably agrees with you. If so, putting him on the defensive won't help your son's problem. That all said, if it were my troop and a couple of older scouts were being that selfish I'd ask the SPL what happened. If it was the SPL we'd have a different talk about looking out for everyone in the troop. In the meantime, I'd ask the parents to have some patience, making mistakes and learning from them is part of the process.

Punishment or consequence are tools, and like any tool can be abused. If they're used with the intent that it helps a scout mature, it's tough love and can be useful. If they're used to get rid of a problem then it's wrong. Since JoeBob was with the PLC when they came up with their plan I'm sure it wasn't Lord of the Flies.

There's something else going on here. Boys don't much think about what is right so much as they recognize what works. If the scouts don't stand up to misbehavior and only the SM will do anything about it then the rules are simple - be "good" when the SM is around and have "fun" the rest of the time. After doing it enough the scouts get into a habit and go so far as to not even notice the contradictions. It's not that they lie when confronted, they don't even see that what they did was wrong. I have two scouts right now that deny everything and they honestly believe it.

I'm working with my PLC to get the majority of the scouts to confront bad behavior. And likely these boys will change. But what if they only recognizes that when you're at scouts you need to be "good" and you can have "fun" at school? Doesn't this get to Barry's point, at least to me it's his point, that what we really want to do is instill selfless behavior in the scouts? Getting a boy to stop using other kids for his amusement is a start, but following that with giving him experience at helping others might just light a flame inside him.

Change of heart? How about oak?

There are several actors here. There's you, Bad Eagle, Tenderfoot, and the Troop. The troop can be broken into those that see Bad Eagle's behavior as a problem and those that don't care. Bad Eagle has no incentive to change. He's worked the system. Tenderfoot has the most incentive to change after being embarrassed by Bad Eagle. A little effort from an adult, or especially some scouts, would turn his scouting career around. The scouts that see Bad Eagle's behavior for what it is probably want something to change, they just aren't sure what. They listen to your SM minutes and see an Eagle scout that's an ass. That's conflict.

Start with the Troop. How about at your SM minute you also say that knowing right from wrong isn't good enough, that standing up for it is also important, and BTW come talk to me if you see it in the troop. You may need to pull aside a couple of scouts and ask them if they saw it. If you get a few scouts that saw something and explicitly said it was wrong then you have something. Pick the 3 most mature. Talk to them. Ask them why they didn't stand up for Tenderfoot. Tell them your concerns that Tenderfoot doesn't want to be a rat. Ask what should be done to both Bad Eagle and Tenderfoot. Likely they will bring forth a much bigger 2x4 than you. Ignore the temptation. Your asking them how to deal with this will give them confidence, It will also reinforce that the Scout Law means something.

Then talk to Tenderfoot. Assuming there are scouts that didn't like what they saw, let him know. Ask him if he'd like to advance but is struggling with something you can help him with. If he just doesn't want to advance, that's fine too. Maybe you can encourage the Three to work with Tenderfoot. If you could get that to happen then it doesn't much matter what happens with Bad Eagle, you'll have made a big improvement with those 4 scouts.

That leaves Bad Eagle. There are 2 parts to the 2x4. First, in no uncertain terms, he's done wrong, there are consequences, getting thrown out of the troop is one of them. It's his choice. Second, it will take a lot of time and praise to change his behavior. Ask him what he's going to do to make up for what he's done. He could start by apologizing to Tenderfoot. If it's honest then praise him. Then ask him to work with Tenderfoot so he can get First Class by August. If he bites then great, everyone wins. If not, you're teaching the rest of the troop to stand up to his behavior.

I don't know much about this boy or the rest of his troop. It may be that the boys have a clique and he's not in it, or it might be that this boy is just shy or that he's difficult when adults aren't around, or, who knows. I currently have a scout that is 13, Star, went to jambo, goes to multiple places to get merit badges, goes on every campout he can, is very enthusiastic, always says hi to me, and still, is not in OA. When I asked some scouts why, they rolled their eyes and explained that this boy is a very different kid when the adults aren't around. I don't think he's a bad kid, he just doesn't know how to control himself. Some good leaders start off real obnoxious.

I'd suggest the boy in the OP start by asking his PL why he wasn't elected. If his PL replies, "you're a dork" then maybe the boy doesn't want to be in the OA with that group. But if the PL says, "you never help clean and always have an excuse to not help out" then maybe it's time to listen.

P18Alex, advocacy is a solution to a problem, but if the problem is not the one that needs to be solved then it might not be any different then the mom meddling.

JoeBob, you reminded me of something else. Namely, get someone else to swing the 2x4, preferably the PLC. I'm guessing that having your peers tell you to straighten up is a much stronger message than having an adult tell you.

I think you're getting to the heart of motivation. He won't change until he wants to change. And he won't want to change until he sees that he's made a mistake and that someone would like to help him. Just guessing but he's 14 and Eagle so either mom and dad are doing all the work or he's a very bright but self centered kid. Anyway, I'd start with a SMC. Ask him what an Eagle scout is and does. Write it down. Ask for details. He may need some coaching to get it out but write down his words. Next, review the incident. Ask for details. Compare what he said in general to what he did in this specific case. The goal is to find out if he see's whether he made a mistake. If so, you're most of the way there. Ask him how he can atone for his mistakes. If he's willing to try then you'll end up with a great kid. If he doesn't see the mistake, well, before you reach him you have to get his attention. That usually involves something like a 2x4 with a nail in the end of it. I'd withhold any palms until he can prove he can walk the walk. I wouldn't go into details of what that means because he obviously knows how to do the minimum amount of work. Tell him when he gets frustrated he can ask for a SMC and you're more than willing to talk. And if he wants to talk bring out what you wrote and just go over it again. If it takes a year that's ok. It will give him some time to mature.

There are two words you need to know for these situations: "Show me." If he can't point to it in the most current policy books (Guide to Safe Scouting, G. to Advancement, G. to Uniforms and Insignia, etc.) he can go fly a kite.

Barry, I agree with most of what you're saying. Mainly that a lot of adults don't get it. But one thing that hasn't changed is the desire of parents to raise sons that are responsible, resourceful, adventurous, and yes, even selfless.

I think the challenge for scouts is training the adult leaders. Compare scouts to high school football. The training for a good coach is similar to a good SM, it takes a lot of time and passion. But the football coach has professional football to help sell his program, is paid, has equipment and gear, trainers and assistants, every game is described in the local paper, and tons of resources on how to coach football. Not only that but the goal of football is simple and easy for the kids to understand: win. The SM is a volunteer and gets a weekend course on how to sign off First Class requirements. Nothing really describes what boy led means, or how the outdoors works, or what an Eagle project is. And what is the goal? Really, you're taking someone that has a pee-wee level of coaching and putting him in a high school environment. It's no wonder the adults aren't so good in scouting.

National's response is JTE, a program where they try to improve units via a two page document. If you're in a unit that isn't doing it right and you've never seen it done right, then those two pages won't do much. Can you imagine giving a peewee coach a two page paper on how to coach a high school football program?

Rather, there must be people somewhere that understand how to turn a unit around. Get them together. They'll come up with something good. Then share it. I'd use it. Something like Top Gun for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts? Or why not ranks for adults? Even a good book that describes how all this works would help.

Eagledad, don't give up. I just had a fantastic campout with my troop. The SPL showed true leadership and he didn't even know it. He started a snowball fight with some older scouts, which eventually brought in the rest of the troop, followed by the adults. After an hour we were exhausted and soaking wet, so we called a truce. I told the SPL that what he did was a perfect example of leadership and to keep doing it. So on Saturday night he organized a game and all I could think was nobody would join him, but most did. I finally think my troop is moving in the right direction. It still works, even without hep from Texas.

Geez JoeBob, maybe I should get a white cowboy hat and sunglasses as we must be related.

I think there are a couple of things going on. One is that the boys know crap when they see it and the minimum requirements for getting Eagle, at least the way most troops operate, is mostly crap. A few years ago I asked some older scouts that didn't really do much for the troop, but would bust their butts on summer camp staff what the deal was and they told me they knew they were critical for the success of the camp but the troop didn't need their help. They were right.

Next, boys are afraid to compete or challenge themselves in something they don't feel comfortable with. The 14 and 15 year olds are starting to see how big the world is and how small they are and their reaction is to be cool and ignore it when I think they're insecure. Furthermore, peer pressure is horrible after puberty and even though there are some scouts that want to push themselves, they are encouraged not to.

Third, culture has lots of momentum and it's the culture that needs to change. 11 and 12 year olds will just jump in and do it. 13-15 year olds will only do it if they see it. 16 and 17 year olds will not change, so they will either help out or need to be sidelined.

Finally, sitting around and taking it easy is like dessert, good for your soul but easily abused.

So, the question I started a few days ago with my ASMs is how do we change the culture to include more challenge. We don't want every campout to be Seal Boot Camp but .... Challenge will be the norm and being lazy is rare and appreciated. Rank requirements will be a challenge because they will have to show mastery, not just squeak by. Most events will have a challenge built in, preferably patrol based.

I have no idea if this will work. Some scouts will drop and that's fine. Some will thrive and that's who I want to do this for. I disagree with Engineer61. My son, who is now 22, recently told me that he now understands what scouting is about. This is the kid that was shy as could be when he joined scouts but was all in for the adventure when he left. It still works. Hang in there. Do your best. Help a few kids. Ignore the rest.

They can stay up all night as far as I'm concerned. They are expected to be at flags, participate in the program, and be packed up, ready to go on Sunday at a predetermined time. They are expected to live the Scout Oath and Law. Every meal they choose to eat requires protein. Other than that, it's up to the PL. So, if they can't wake up in time Saturday morning then, gee, no time for breakfast because they need to be at flags. That happens once and then they realize they need to get up, which means they need to go to sleep, .... I'm no longer responsible for nagging kids and they can figure it out themselves. win-win.

They can stay up all night as far as I'm concerned. They are expected to be at flags, participate in the program, and be packed up, ready to go on Sunday at a predetermined time. They are expected to live the Scout Oath and Law. Every meal they choose to eat requires protein. Other than that, it's up to the PL. So, if they can't wake up in time Saturday morning then, gee, no time for breakfast because they need to be at flags. That happens once and then they realize they need to get up, which means they need to go to sleep, .... I'm no longer responsible for nagging kids and they can figure it out themselves. win-win.

I have a hunch that this problem is The one problem that the BSA should solve to make everything better; help struggling packs thrive. That would solve the Cub Scout membership problem and would in turn solve the Boy Scout membership problem.

My hat is off to those that are doing super human service to these units. It's been my experience that roughly 25% of any non-profit organization will volunteer and help out. So either you're unlucky in the parents you have or just maybe they don't see the it the way you do. You see how a pack should run but they don't. What if you found a pack that does work and for 6 months combined the two packs. At the end you talk to all the parents and ask them if they're interested and what do they think they can do.to make the old pack look like the good one. Maybe if they see it done right you can get the 25% to help out.

Stosh, often I wonder if working with 11 year olds might be easier when it comes to leadership. Sure, you have to ask lots of questions but they aren't afraid to try. 16 and 17 year olds are willing to try and push themselves, as do 11 year olds, but there's a gap between 13 to 15 where being cool and not rocking the boat is more important than challenging yourself. Right now I have few 16-17 year old scouts and am struggling with this.

Methinks that 'The Game of Life' has spawned.

 

And the hazing cited for that NYLT class presents the irresistible pun: 'Would Badger'.

As usual, my guess is someone took a good idea and abused it. In this case they kept up the charade for a few days rather than, say, an hour. Which is probably too long for scouts.

ScouterCA, I agree, it's a cluster fart in a mummy bag. And your son has tried. He tried talking to the adults (who apparently are all missing out on what scouting is about). He talked to the boy and that failed. He found another troop that really likes him. At the same time, while your son has been driven to tears by this boy, he is "still firmly planted in this troop." Why? This might be a good place to start a discussion with your son. Obviously there's something he likes about his first troop. And more obviously there's a bully in it that's ruining it for him and probably others as well. He could just walk away but he hasn't.

What I mean by confronting the problem is that your son doesn't know how to deal with a bully. That's the crux of the problem. Most kids don't know how to handle this because they don't have to figure it out. The bully feeds off of your son's misery and probably enjoyed having your son talk to him and tell him how hurtful words are. When your son cries the bully is having a field day. Shy of violence (and that's an important thing to consider), this is an opportunity for your son to gain confidence in dealing with dirt bags. This kid isn't bullying your son because your son is advancing faster than he is, he's bullying your son because he gets a response. Unless your son is home schooled until he graduates, switching troops isn't going to solve the problem if they end up in the same school. This boy is learning from his mom. My guess is she treats him like garbage at home and he's trying to gain confidence the only way he knows how.

Getting some scouter to back up your son would be a great way for him to gain confidence, so I'd start talking to those higher up. Maybe there are programs at a local school for learning how to respond to bullies, and when to pull in an adult. I wouldn't teach this, find a teacher in a school that deals with butt heads daily. Honestly, it sounds like it would be better for your son to leave this troop (how wrong can it be?), but if he can leave it on his own terms, and not that of the bully, then he wins. Another option is leave now, but still learn to deal with bullies so this won't happen in the future.

One thing that caught my eye is that this other boy is polite around adults and a bully around the boys. So, who's solving the problems in this troop? Not the boys. I'm guessing that a lot of boys in this troop are seeing this and none of them are standing up for what's right. That's where the silver lining to this problem lies. Whether or not you can do anything to change this, I don't know. But it's something to look for in another troop. I've been working with the boys in my troop to take ownership of these types of problems and they need constant encouragement. This is not easy for them.

While that's the crux of the problem, there's another opportunity to work with your son on dealing with bullies. He doesn't want to confront the problem either. Understandably, he's upset and wants it to go away. One kid is keeping your son away from his friends. Going to another troop will not solve that problem. Has your son talked to his friends to see what they think about the bully? Just a guess, but if half the kids in his patrol knew what was going on and stood up for your son the next time this happens, it would end. Just knowing that he had friends that are empathetic to his problems would likely give him enough courage to face this alone.

Eagle is an attitude. How hard will someone push themselves to do the right thing. Whether service to help an elderly couple shovel their sidewalk or hiking out of the Grand Canyon, it still requires going above and beyond. Some that do the requirements have the attitude. Many don't. A few have the attitude but don't do the requirements. What this has to do with parents or scoutmasters is more related to chance. Some of this attitude is trainable and I suppose the more a scout sees it the more he's likely to absorb it -- so plus one for the active parents. At the same time there's also a genetic component. Some kids just have it when they show up from cub scouts and I'm guessing the parents just get in the way in that case. My son, at age 22, thanked me for taking him on all those campouts and service projects yet, when he started, he was very timid. I would say I've seen a closer correspondence between attitude and participation then attitude and rank.

Scout toss: get all of your patrol and all it's stuff over an orange mesh fence without touching the fence. usually this involves tossing the smaller scouts over. Assuming there's plenty of snow to land in, it's a lot of fun.