MattR

I looked at the ladder thing and it brings up some questions. For the top level it says the adults won't step in unless it's a safety issue. When it comes to bad decisions that's fine as long the the result of the bad decision is timely. Forget food? Hunger. But what about decisions that aren't very timely. Let's say the scouts decide no new Webelos this year? Or maybe a decision just goes against the grain of scouting, such as not camping anymore, or not helping the younger scouts, or the flag ceremonies have become a joke. Or maybe just a PL being a butt. What's the feedback that addresses those issues? Some of those cases could be handled by scouts that think something is wrong. What's the mechanism to do that?. But there are also things that maybe only the SM sees. I agree with Barry that the SM is the keeper of the flame, so they ultimately do have say in decisions. So can any troop ever get to that top level? Or am I just reading this wrong?

 

Stosh and Barry, you're both making some great points. Being able to gauge, even if it's subjective, how boy-led a troop is is a great idea. Barry is right that it has to account for the age and maturity of the scouts. Everyone seems to think boy led is a binary value and everyone says yep, we're boy led. Rather, wouldn't it be great to have some categories and how to evaluate them? It would be a great tool for improving a troop, both scouts and adults.

 

Rather than numbers why not just grades? A - we're out of a job, hooray! B - We're proud of our boys. C - Needs a lot of coaching. D - Deer in the headlights. F - Maybe it's time for a change.

 

I don't know what good categories would be. Who knows, maybe the SM and PLC should include this in their planning campout. The scouts decide the responsibilities of the scouts and the adults. You know, that's just a simple, good idea. Start with Barry's discussion of ethics and then ask the incoming SPL what he wants to be responsible for, and implicitly what the adults won't do. For a new 12 yo SPL that discussion will look a lot different than for a 17 yo SPL. The older scout might even ask for more than the SM expects. The SM can write down all the things that are done by scouts and adults and the SPL chooses what he thinks he can handle and come up with a way to ensure he's doing a good job. Essentially, let the scouts define the expectations and consequences.

 

A wise SM would give the boy not quite enough rope to hang himself. I think it would be great to have a discussion with the SPL along the lines of, if you say you're going to do this and you don't, there may be some scouts that quit the troop or at least vote you out, are you prepared for this? What's more boy-led and adaptable then asking the SPL what he will be responsible for, and then holding him, and the adults, to it?

 

I really like this because it solves a big problem I have. I don't like being the bad guy/enforcer of standards but nobody else will do it. By giving the scout complete freedom in picking his responsibilities I'm no longer the bad guy. Granted, a few things are not on the table, like med forms and signing Eagle apps, but a lot of others could be. It might be tough figuring out what all the responsibilities are.

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

BD, and others, the answer was buried in there under consequences. We had a problem with patrols not doing flags at meetings. So, I talked to the SPL about what a good consequence would be and we came up with the entire patrol, during the game, will instead practice their flag ceremony and figure out how to not miss their responsibility next time. Once they're done with that and they talk it over with the SPL, they can join the game. So, the other scouts are playing games and these guys are having a discussion about responsibility. Great motivation, and the scouts were in on deciding the consequence. They actually do a great job at that. If anything, I tend to tone down the punishment they come up with.

 

As for having the SPL responsible for waking up the troop, the SPL and I made a change. It's the PL's responsibility to wake his patrol up and get them to flags, with their patrol flag. This is all about making the PL the most important position in the troop. The PLs like it.

I don't know about percentages but I've recently realized that the things that prevent boys from making decisions are lack of maturity, lack of trust between scouts and adults, and fuzzy boundaries between the adult and scout responsibilities. Immature boys just don't make decisions and a lack of trust kills confidence. Fuzzy responsibilities encourages boys to defer to adults and for adults to step in. Making a short, clear list of responsibilities (as well as consequences for not meeting their responsibilities) makes it easier to pull back the adults and for the boys to know it's their problem. I've recently had a lot of luck with this idea. Everyone is happier. Well, the scouts and I are happier, some of the parents are not at all happy with the chaos or some of the ideas these guys come up with.

 

And by short I mean short. I don't care what they eat as long as it has some protein and a fruit or vegetable. I don't care where they are until flags Saturday morning as long as they're quiet from 10pm to when everyone wakes and that they look out for each other's well being, I don't care when they wake up or if the eat breakfast.

 

 

 

 

How much do you charge for Christmas tree removal

We get close to 200 trees and, I believe, over $10/tree, so a little over $2k. If you'd like, I can get you exact numbers. KDD is right, you want to check things out. You also want to do this in neighborhoods where people own their houses. We do a mix of neighborhoods, some nice, some not. We live in a town of 150,000 so we don't get the big city attitude. The idea that someone would limit scouts from selling popcorn if they aren't from your area is, honestly, embarrassing. I'm sure there are people that rip us off. There are also people that really like Boy Scouts. Maybe we're lucky and live in an area with a lot of people that are philanthropic. When we first tried this I said we had to ensure payment and one guy said no, just trust people. Especially around Christmas. He was right.

 

Maybe try it on a small scale first. Maybe just 200 flyers. That'll get you maybe 20 trees. Remember, 5 trees will fill up a small pickup. 200 trees is a few very big flatbed trailers with built up sides.

Kudu, I have a question for you. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? Since you'd like the focus of scouting to be outdoor skills (as would I), is there a need for service projects?

 

My view is that the outdoors develops confidence and doing service develops compassion, two very useful characteristics.

A few more questions. 1) I'm not sure you really answered the previous question. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? You said they're important, but how do they complement learning outdoor skills, which is really a selfish thing when you get right down to it. I'm not asking because I'm a butt, I'm getting somewhere with this.

 

2) If service hours are not important and "doing" is the best way to learn a skill, then how does the SM encourage a scout to do the right thing? Does the troop just plan a number of service projects and the expectation is the scout will show up to most of them? That's more in line with what I do now anyway. I'm afraid that just talking about doing the right thing will never stick in a teenage boy's brain. Firing a gun is fun and it's easy to get them to want to do that. Collecting food for the food bank is not fun and likely not meaningful until a scout is older.

 

3) This is really what I'm after. What is a short description, less than a sentence, of the purpose of scouting? I ask because when I looked at the BSA website it looked like a horrible mess written by a committee of psycho babblers. Because the purpose isn't clear the training isn't clear, and the program isn't clear, and the boys and parents aren't sure what it's all about. it's an inkblot test and people see what they want to see in it. You seem to like to make things simple and this is a time where some simplicity would be a good thing. I don't expect anyone at national to read this, but at least when I talk to parents I can sound coherent.

 

I don't mind if anyone else chimes in as well. If I were to rewrite the BSA website I'd write "Developing the type of man that every woman wants: Confident, compassionate, and adventurous." It's a bit cheeky but the moms and dads that know little of the outdoors need to hear something better than "Reinforce Ethical Standards" if they're ever going to encourage their kids to go camping with us.

Sadly the US education has not only had a bad repuation for the past 3 decades or so ... it really is that bad (outside Ivy League/Private Schools)

When I went to school in California as a foreigner I got the highest scores on spelling bees o_O and english was only my 3rd language ....

I took all the CTBS and PSAT/SAT stuff. The entire system of learning is so different in the US.

A 12 grade US High School Diploma is comparable to 10th grade in germany (Abitur is 13 years).

German exchange students who spend a year in the US usually repeat a year unless they are straigh 1/A.

And dont even get me started on how bad and dysfunctional the german school system is, they didnt do that great on PISA either ...

 

And you end up with politicans with the knowledge of Sara Palin *shudders* ....

Comparing a German Gymnasium program (a college track program) to a US high school is comparing apples and oranges. The Gymnasium picks the students that are allowed whereas a US high school takes everyone, irrespective of ability or disability. Consequently you get back what you put into the US schools. For kids that want a good education and are motivated, they can take IB and AP classes and their education is excellent (and will easily get you into European universities). Kids in the US can also mix and match subjects as kids move from teacher to teacher whereas everywhere else teachers move from class to class. If you like math and music then take all your electives there. This flexibility allows kids to grow up (asking a 5th grader to make a decision about college is a bit of a stretch). It also supports the really bright kids that are, for example, taking calculus as Freshman and Sophomores. This is all supported in my local, public, high schools. There are also the local, public, charter schools that have more of an emphasis on academics.

 

This isn't to say that US schools are all wonderful. That's nonsense too. A lot of inner city schools are abysmal (although the best schools in the country are mostly inner city.) The problem is partially the parents that don't care what their kids do in school. Another problem is the culture that has formed about trying not to hurt a child's self esteem by giving bad grades. Grade inflation is rampant and backfires when they get to college.

Kudu, I have a question for you. How do service projects fit in with the outdoor program? Since you'd like the focus of scouting to be outdoor skills (as would I), is there a need for service projects?

 

My view is that the outdoors develops confidence and doing service develops compassion, two very useful characteristics.

 

Pros: The calendar sounds like fun. Very active. Must be a lot better than what you had. Having a lot of adults volunteering can be a good thing. Having older scouts teach the skills is good. The comment about the SM restricting the adults.

 

Cons: SM picking patrols (I used to do that, now the scouts handle it). Not allowing 300' because of safety concerns (i.e., do the adults trust the scouts? Train, trust, lead?) Suspecting the generals surround the monthly plc and coach (are the scouts deciding anything at the PLC?) The meeting of bringing in 3 patrol boxes for 40 scouts sounds boring (no hands on). No wonder only 40 out of 90 showed up. So what are the other meetings like?

 

Maybes: With 90 scouts there is sure to be a few that are exceptional in front of a crowd. I'd watch the patrol leaders. What are the patrol activities and what do they do at the one meeting a month that's a patrol meeting? If it's only advancement: con, if it's a mix chosen by the PL: pro. If the uniforms are the biggest issue and the PLs don't lead, that's a con to me. With 90 scouts how many go on high adventure trips? Many trips have limits of a dozen people, they would need 3 per year. Do they have high adventure trips every year? How do the patrols function on the campouts? How was your son treated when he visited? Ignored:con, welcomed: pro.

 

The real question - are the patrol leaders leading or are they glorified secretaries? If they are leading, it sounds like a great troop. If not, it's still doing a lot.

My plc has a meeting after every campout, so roughly once a month.

 

A couple of years ago it dawned on me that while the committee was meeting for an hour or two once a month, the plc was getting everything done in 20 minutes a month. So I decided the scouts weren't doing much leading. They certainly weren't making many decisions.

How much do you charge for Christmas tree removal

We print out something like 2000 flyers with pre-addressed envelopes stapled to them. The first weekend we distribute them. The second weekend we pick up any trees we find. The money shows up over the next two months as people remember to mail them in. Some people call when we miss their tree and we have to pick a few up the next day.

How much do you charge for Christmas tree removal

We just ask for a donation. Some are cheap and some are very generous. The donation makes it a lot easier as we just make two sweeps through. First to hand out a flier and the second to pick up any tree we find.

Forget popcorn, half of that is going to the folks that don't want to help you. We never reach our goal with popcorn. Cubbies are much cuter.

 

Not sure where you live BD, but if the leaves fall off about this time of year, buy some rakes and some tarps and have kids offer to rake leaves. $10-$15/hour/scout is reasonable. People hate raking leaves. Could be a great team building activity for patrols. Big kids rake, little kids stuff bags.

 

We do the Christmas tree pickup and ask for donations. One week we pass out a lot of addressed envelopes with a paper explaining what we're doing and the following week we drive by and pick up trees. People mail us checks. It is about $8/hr/scout for the whole thing. You'd have to do that in the nice areas as real trees seem to be a luxury anymore. BTW, 200 trees takes up a LOT of room.

 

Too bad the Kroger store closed, they have a fund raiser that gives you 5% of all purchases. You put $100 on the card, buy $100 worth of groceries, and eventually $5 gets mailed to you. Reload the card, repeat. Actually, maybe you could go door to door in the nice part of town and see if people will adopt your troop and use cards with your troop as the beneficiary. Write a monthly letter of what your troop is doing and how the money is being spent and send it to the people that use the cards. People would feel good about helping you out and it wouldn't cost them much at all. Kroger gets steady customers. The problem is all of the other non-profits may be doing the same thing. That's what happens in our town. But for people without kids, there may be an opportunity.

Pros: The calendar sounds like fun. Very active. Must be a lot better than what you had. Having a lot of adults volunteering can be a good thing. Having older scouts teach the skills is good. The comment about the SM restricting the adults.

 

Cons: SM picking patrols (I used to do that, now the scouts handle it). Not allowing 300' because of safety concerns (i.e., do the adults trust the scouts? Train, trust, lead?) Suspecting the generals surround the monthly plc and coach (are the scouts deciding anything at the PLC?) The meeting of bringing in 3 patrol boxes for 40 scouts sounds boring (no hands on). No wonder only 40 out of 90 showed up. So what are the other meetings like?

 

Maybes: With 90 scouts there is sure to be a few that are exceptional in front of a crowd. I'd watch the patrol leaders. What are the patrol activities and what do they do at the one meeting a month that's a patrol meeting? If it's only advancement: con, if it's a mix chosen by the PL: pro. If the uniforms are the biggest issue and the PLs don't lead, that's a con to me. With 90 scouts how many go on high adventure trips? Many trips have limits of a dozen people, they would need 3 per year. Do they have high adventure trips every year? How do the patrols function on the campouts? How was your son treated when he visited? Ignored:con, welcomed: pro.

 

The real question - are the patrol leaders leading or are they glorified secretaries? If they are leading, it sounds like a great troop. If not, it's still doing a lot.

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

We seem to be talking about two different issues; what the kids want, and what the parents want. As for the kids, they haven't changed over the years. They still want fun, challenge, and respect from adults. They still like telling stories of dealing with tough situations. For the boys we need to improve the program. Boy-led, 300' and the outdoors is all part of it.

 

What the parents want is different. Maybe they are afraid of the outdoors, or more likely, just don't understand it. At the same time, I'm not sure parents views have changed that much on what they want for their kids. Responsible, confident, compassionate, courageous. They want their boys to grow into good men. I certainly have plenty of moms come up to me asking that I help raise their sons to be good men. Maybe the challenge is that the BSA isn't doing a good job of connecting the methods of scouting to growing into a man. If the view is we go into the woods and start fires with flint and steel, but nobody sees that as being prepared, or that the scouts are learning to solve their own problems, then scouting is seen as quaint. We don't need to sell the adventure as jumping on the back of a wild boar with a knife in our teeth, but certainly conquering challenges is a good, fun way to learn what's important.

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

Paul, looks like a council summer camp thing. I like it, though.

 

EagleDad, I don't doubt you one bit that there are a lot of adults that are clueless and just want to do right by their kids. That was me, although I had a lot of camping experience. But why is it top shelf with 50% versus bottom shelf with 100%? Why not 50% on the top shelf and 50% on the bottom? The problem is there are not enough adults with good training. The problem is not that there are adults that don't want to be successful. I agree there are a lot of adults that have limited time, but when there's somebody that really wants to do well, let's have something to give them so they can succeed. For those that have never camped, this is an excellent opportunity to have them learn along with their SPL.

 

My suggestion would be to leave everything as is (for the bottom shelf) but add a course that spends a weekend on how to implement boy led and really dive into the nuts and bolts of how to make the methods of scouting work, and how these parts work together. Explain why 300' is important. Send the SM home with a binder full of ideas that actually work, as opposed to vague platitudes. We're guys, we need blunt! Someone needs to say that 300' doesn't work if you have 75 lb patrol boxes. 300' doesn't work unless the adults give the scouts real responsibility for the well being of their patrol. Explain how to deal with helicopter parents. Explain how to set boundaries and then stay outside of them. Explain how to get the best kids in a patrol to be the leader. I would absolutely sign up to take such a class and I know a lot of adults, mostly new, that would really appreciate some help.

I agree with the idea that character and adventure go hand in hand. Adventure in the outdoors leads to problems which leads to learning how to deal with those problems. Match that with good character and you have a man. Either one by itself leads to either a church youth group or an REI minor league.

 

The character part of scouting is strong. The part that's lacking is where the scout makes decisions and takes responsibility for himself and others. It's getting harder to do that with helicopter parents, rules from above that limit a lot of fun, and kids that honestly expect to be told exactly what to do. I have a mom that sent his son's patrol email "because he's not very organized" (what a fight that was). We can't climb on rocks above waist high. Really? These kids ski and bike off of rocks higher than waist high.

 

Anyway, Kudu has a point that, while harshly made, I'm finding more and more important. We're moving away from the adventure and that's what a lot of kids want and that's where they learn. There's a way to get back to it and do it safely but there's nothing I see from National that's helping that. Not JTE, not ILST, not Woodbadge. Maybe back in the day of Hillcourt all the adults naturally knew how to do this but they don't now.

I don't think that ad hoc patrols is the real reason for the problem of attendance. As a matter of fact they are simply a work around for a bigger problem that is basically ignored because it's easier to make up the rules along the way than it is to solve the problem.

 

A) We have low attendance at our events.

B) So we combine patrols to keep from dealing with A above.

C) Boys that show up have fun, the rest miss out. But that's okay, those that showed up had fun.

 

What's wrong with attacking the problem at the A level? Why is there low attendance in the first place. If one can solve that problem, then the issue of ad hoc patrols becomes moot... AND ALL the boys have fun.

 

Stosh

It doesn't have to be 100%. I require, for a scout to be in a patrol, he go to roughly half the events. It works well and the scouts have plenty of time for other activities. I no longer need to mix patrols unless it's extreme and only one scout from a patrol shows up (it happened once this past year) and the scouts no longer even mention combining patrols. We have 6-8 in each patrol.

Seems to me the problem is that, more than ever before, we have boys with extremely diverse interests and extremely diverse family situations. That's not changing anytime soon. So padding a patrol with 10 boys so as to get 6-8 for a given event might not be a bad idea. The down side is the more boys on the patrol roster, the more likely a boy will think he's not essential to he program.

One patrol this past weekend only had 2 scouts show up out of 6 and they had a blast. They recruited a few other scouts from other patrols to run the relay and they got first place at the camporee. Sure they picked all the fast kids but they had a problem and they solved it. I tried making larger patrols once before and it didn't really help, especially if everyone showed up at a campout. It's hard to cook for 10 - 13 people on one of those little stoves.

I don't have aged based patrols. I require either the PL or APL at every patrol activity (camping is one of them). For non leadership positions I require scouts to go on half the campouts and half the service projects if they want to be in a patrol. Exceptions are only made for acts of God. Homework is not an act of God. Band practice is not. Divorced parents are. Scouts have time to be in sports and other activities, they just need to think ahead a bit. We've had these expectations for about a year now and attendance is up and attrition is no different. More kids are having fun. Teamwork is much better. The problem scouts left or are no longer a problem. I will only allow combined patrols if there is only one in a patrol going.

I'd still let the scouts camp, and one of them just might be a new patrol leader.

I don't have aged based patrols. I require either the PL or APL at every patrol activity (camping is one of them). For non leadership positions I require scouts to go on half the campouts and half the service projects if they want to be in a patrol. Exceptions are only made for acts of God. Homework is not an act of God. Band practice is not. Divorced parents are. Scouts have time to be in sports and other activities, they just need to think ahead a bit. We've had these expectations for about a year now and attendance is up and attrition is no different. More kids are having fun. Teamwork is much better. The problem scouts left or are no longer a problem. I will only allow combined patrols if there is only one in a patrol going.

Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules.

 

The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love.

Careful what you ask for JoeBob You'd also get three mother-in-laws, or nine.

The Scout Law hasn't changed since 1911. The Scout Oath and Law could be considered the constitution of the BSA. Of the world's countries that have constitutions only Australia (1900), Denmark (1849), Luxembourg (1868), Norway (1814), and the United States (1787) have constitutions that are older (the U.K. and Canada don't have constitutions). I'd say leave the Scout Law alone, it's passed the test of time.

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

I would tend to believe NJCubScouter. The new code seems to be using AJAX, is asynchronous, and my guess is there are timing issues. My guess is these would show up more often with multiple people writing comments at the same time, so something about TL, which is interesting to us, would have a greater chance of having problems.

 

That said, I wish TL luck. Although they don't like my tribe, they'll help some kids and that's a good thing. They will also hopefully pull some of the heat off the BSA and that will help everyone. I don't get the LDS thing at all. Then again, it ain't my tribe. I generally like the LDS, they like me, but not having a glass of wine on Friday night, well, we can agree to disagree

 

I saw their description of the program and it looks like the equivalent to boy scouts is broken into a younger and older group. Maybe this comes from american heritage girls. Either way, it doesn't do much for boy led.

OK, guys, it's time to stop beating the poor kid.

 

Paracord, you obviously have a lot of enthusiasm. That's a great asset to any troop. That said, your idea of awards for being able to do things that are already covered by ranks sounds a bit redundant, and I think that's what people are complaining about. However, your trying to improve enthusiasm to do a good job is admirable. Is there another way to reward that? How about having a knot tying competition and giving out something for the top three? I had a knot tying competition and to even the field I had the older scouts do some of the knots blind folded. You really have to know the knots to do that. So, don't give an award for being average, make an award for going above and beyond.

 

Personally, I don't like adding awards to a uniform that can already look like bling central, so I'd modify the neckerchief, or add something to it. Also, I'd suggest not worrying about the length of hair. I'm old enough to have seen that when I was your age and it never had a positive outcome. Besides, I had hair that was as wide as my shoulders. It sure pissed my dad off.

 

Good luck.

Sounds like the problem is with the CC. Punishing a scout to send a message to the parents is rather draconian.