MattR

One thing I wish my Council would do to encourage volunteers is to not lose our paperwork. I've been trying for almost a year to be an official Merit Badge Counselor. The other thing is for the professionals to treat volunteer Scouters as customers instead of the help. Several of our professionals have been downright rude to me as a volunteer Scouter. Had I not been a true believer in scouting, I would have quit on the spot.

MB apps are one of those things that should be done online. We fill them out, hand them in, and then ignore them because they end up in a pile on some desk at Council. They don't have enough help to wade through the paperwork so I don't blame them. All they're waiting for is for someone to type all the fields on the paper into the computer.

 

JoeBob, you should hear what some of the staff say about the scoutmasters. Plenty of analness to spread around.

BasementDweller - the ones who stick around are chasing the Eagle. Modern youth don't have the time to be dilettantes - every activity has to result in a check box for a job or a college application. My hypothesis is that we have dropped the youth that used to just come for the fun of it, regardless of advancement. On top of that, there are more materials available for a boy to pencil whip his way through a merit badge (downloadable workbooks from MeritBadge.com for example).

I've had a number of scouts tell me they started boy scouts with the intent of getting Eagle and moving on, but recently they've decided it's way too much fun and now they want to stay till they age out. It warms my heart. I hope I can keep the excitement for them.

My troop is doing ok. We tell all the families they have to help out somehow. We have signup parties. Most do. We have more than enough adults working on COH stuff, not quite enough that want to work with kids. Maybe hammering nails is easier than working with kids. My district is struggling. I was also thinking of the packs, as those are the units losing the most kids.

 

It seems like the ratio of families that help out to those that don't is roughly 1 in 3-4. If you have a troop with 14 scouts (the average size), that means 2 or 3 adults are going on every campout. That's stressful. With 8 scouts in a den, that means 2 adults are doing everything. After several years it's complete burn out. This is compounded by the fact that your average den leader is clueless. I certainly was. Then there's the problem that Webelos want to do something besides crafts, which places more burden on the adults. Some dens can get half the adults involved and they do great. But that's the exception and not normal. How much greater would it be if half the adults were regularly involved, jazzed, and enthusiastic? I like Eagledads idea of teaching the parents. I might get more adults to work with scouts.

I agree that the Boy Scout volunteers have a harder time getting involved. So the Habitat people have an entry level volunteer position that involves a hammer, 3 hours of time, and no learning curve to speak of. The new person, after having done that, can take some pride in saying they did something. Maybe they'll come back for more and eventually be responsible for building a house, which is no small responsibility. What are the entry level, no skill required jobs for the Boy Scouts? Honestly, changing the toilet paper roll is not going to feel like much progress for the volunteer. What are other tasks for the new parent that we should be pushing them towards?

Over in the politics forum there's a thread about the future of Boy Scouts. One issue I thought of is getting volunteers. I found an interesting paper about volunteering in 1974, 1989, and 2002-2006 (http://www2.illinois.gov/serve/Documents/Volunteering_America_Full_Report.pdf ). It was done using data from the census bureau. The big surprise for me is that the amount of volunteering is considerably higher now than in the 70's and 80's. At the same time it seems like scout units are having a harder time finding volunteers. If I tie this in with the fact that it seems like nobody outside of scouts has any idea what goes on inside of scouts, it seems to me that the BSA's problem is more a case of education than anything else.

 

​To me, there's a certain magic that scouting has that no other activity has. It's not sports and it's not school, but it's a mix of outdoors, adventure, service, leadership, and civics that just works. If it's hard to describe then it makes sense that many adults don't get involved because they don't understand it. There is the Methods of Scouting but that's very cursory. Does anyone dive into the methods any more than the usual?

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I'm always amazed at the mean spirited abuse others inflict on others by throwing around the word discrimination. It's not about clearly communicating. It's hate speech. BSA has always had a faith component.

 

Now we can debate if BSA should change that, but it's not discrimination any more than my neighbor discriminating against me when he doesn't want me entering his house without permission.

 

Personally, I think BSA should leave membership to the charter orgs because it's the only way to avoid the ugly interactions of people we've seen flood these threads for years.

Merlyn, AZMike, it's Miller Time.

 

You know you won't change the mind of the other. You completely disagree with the other. You're arguing to win, not find common ground. Not very scout like. Thus, not very ethical

I'm getting ready to take 50 scouts away from the internet (read summer camp), so I'll throw in my 1 cent. TJ, I agree that things with video screens are a form of entertainment to kids these days. I also know they are shallow and addictive. I also see a lot of people, scouts or not, that want to give back, are looking for something more meaningful to do with their time, or just want something deeper than facebook. I tell people that I'm a SM and talk about some of the things we do and they're all "that is so cool." The service young people are doing today is much better than what I saw as a kid. This isn't just scouts, it's college kids and high school kids. At the same time, to your point, there are plenty of slugs out there as well. I guess my point is that the human spirit is still there. Some people want to Live and some just want to exist. That hasn't changed.

 

I had an Eagle scout in my troop that did everything, knew his stuff, and was really great. I talked to his dad recently and this kid is struggling. He was addicted to video games. He's flailing. At the same time, another Eagle scout just called me in a panic the other day because he doesn't know what to do after he graduates from college. The long story short is he wants to do the Peace Corps but all his friends told him that was a waste as he wouldn't make any money. I told him to follow his heart and ignore the money. You could hear the smile through the phone.

 

I'm having my plc review their campouts because they're, to be honest, boring. It started a good discussion. I won't get them to sweat on every campout but they will be memorable.

 

I don't know where that leaves us with the BSA. There are still good people out there that need and want what we have to offer. I think the problem isn't the boy scouts so much as the cub scouts. The numbers are dropping much faster there than in the boy scouts.

Fred and Eagledad, what you're describing is well written in the book The Last Child in the Woods. This is more a society thing than the Boy Scouts. I can't do anything about society but I can work with my patrol leaders. I'm always happy for a PL to ask if he can take his patrol on a 5 mile hike without adults. I've suggested it with only a little luck. Next week is summer camp and maybe I'll have the PLs plan their own 5 mile hike for the new scouts in their patrol.

 

One magical thing about boys is they will find the fun in a new situation. Maybe they don't know how to create their own new situation. When my son was little he'd be sitting inside and I'd tell him to go outside and he'd complain and moan but finally go outside. About 4 hours later I'm wondering around looking for him. He had a blast. Maybe I just need to tell my patrols to get out of camp.

I don't know if it's about prissy vs manly so much as adventure. And there are lots of ways to have an adventure. (I would be in on the bucket of snakes)

 

I like the phrase "here there be dragons" supposedly written on the edge of maps indicating the unknown. Combine that with Be Prepared and that, to me, is how a calendar should be figured out. But it's hard to find scouts that will go for it. Adventure is about challenging yourself, and that implies a possibility of failure. I don't know, maybe a lot of kids don't know how to fail gracefully, so they stay away from any challenge. Seems to me society doesn't like young winners and losers (although winning is everything for adults, but that's another thread).

 

We just did a biking based high adventure trip and everyone was challenged and the range of abilities was all over the map. We had different ability groups so everyone got pushed, everyone struggled, and we had a ton of fun. If I could do that troop wide, it would be great.

 

Maybe we need to emphasize to scouts how to fail gracefully and also win gracefully by helping those that are struggling.

 

Don't know about "prissy". But it has morphed into something that placates the helicopter parents, the lawyers, and those boys who would rather sit in front of a video game than rappel down a tower. LIke any other organism, it has adapted to the environment in which it finds itself, rather than go extinct.

He lives in a flat state?

Our rules are that ISA accounts are fine but the money can only be used for purely scout related purposes. Apparently there is precedence with the IRS (something about marching bands) that this is good enough to pass their "no personal gain" rule. So, a scout asked if he could use the money to buy a bike for a high adventure trip and we said no, as the bike would also be used after the high adventure trip for personal gain. Using the money to pay for the high adventure trip was fine. Using it for jamboree is fine. Using it for church camp is not fine. Using it for summer camp is fine. Basically, using it for gear is not OK. Once a scout turns 18 he loses all of his money, so adults can not have accounts.

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Well, try waiting another week

We got passion

 

I like Kudu's 300' ideas. I had to get us off the 300 pounds of gear before we could do it, but it's just a way to say patrol based activities and not troop based activities. My troop is finally getting there and my scouts like it. My goal is to have the PLs strong enough that any one could be SPL, and maybe we could just get rid of the SPL and the PLs could just take turns. I think that's what Kudu is talking about.

 

I also appreciate what BD is going through. I had a scout that everyone was sure would never, ever, be responsible for anything, much less a leader. All of a sudden last year he found out he was really good at tying knots (we had a blind folded knot tying contest). In February he became a troop guide and all his new scouts really like him. He's now a patrol leader. He cares about his patrol. He doesn't want to manage it, he wants to lead it. So the idea of building up a leader is a reasonable idea to me.

 

Kudu says patrol elections are a popularity contest. Not in my troop. Maybe I'm just lucky but over the past two cycles, only the best scouts have been voted in. Granted, we do things differently than most troops, but the scouts know who's good and who isn't.

 

One thing I'd like to add is that changing a troop from, say, troop method to patrol method, or adult led to scout led, takes a lot of effort. Changing culture in a troop is not easy. What a younger scout sees is what he'll do when he gets older and starts leading or being a role model. If a young scout sees an older scout lead then he'll learn from that and try and emulate it when it's his turn, at least in the beginning. That's what I did when I became SM. For a situation like what BD has, where there is no prior leadership to learn from the scout has nothing to emulate, and flailing would be expected. We can use words all we want to try and explain how to do it but words are only so good when it comes to leadership. And that's why I also agree with Kudu's dim view on classroom leadership training. What I'm finding is that being a troop guide and/or working at summer camp helps a scout gain confidence in working with other people, and is a much better way to learn leadership than something like NYLT. It's not that NYLT isn't useful, but it it not sufficient and only somewhat necessary.

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Barry, try editing your message in another window, then login to the forum, then just copy and paste. it works well for me.

I think you did the right thing there Basement. What was his reaction to your suggestion? Did you offer to help come up with a plan to improve?

Actually, I think you've made great progress. Now you have his attention and he's likely to listen to you, so speak carefully. A little bit of success could go a long way now.

So, you have a scout that you're getting frustrated with at trying to get him to do his best? Welcome to being a SM

 

Jblake could be right, no point in kicking a dead horse. However, it could also be other things. How old is this boy? Personally, I think it is a rare scout that can lead at the age of 12. 13? Maybe, 14. Also, has this boy seen it done right? Simple example is how to clean dishes. We told the scouts hot soapy water, scrape the food out, scrub, etc, but it still took 6 months before they got those ideas. Now it's no longer an issue. Scouts see how it's done and when it's their turn to lead they know what we mean my cleaning. Words don't have nearly the impact as seeing it done.

 

It gets down to figuring out whether the boy is trying and wants to do it right, but for whatever reason is failing, vs a boy that just can't be bothered. Many boys, if they don't know how to do something, will end up looking like they don't care when they care a lot. So I certainly can't give you any advice on how to deal with this boy.

We just went through figuring out patrols. We also had to add a patrol but we started with 6. Before doing any of this I asked the scouts to write down 3 friends they wanted to be with and I made a big graph of this. The PLC sat down and we talked about servant leadership. Then we talked about what the patrol leaders wanted for support (mostly strong scouts). Then we talked about what the younger scouts needed (friends and wise old scouts). Then we talked about what everyone wanted (friends). Then I gave them limits on the number of scouts (6-9). Then I said "this is your troop, figure it out." Then all I did was keep them focused so it wouldn't take 8 hours. I'm a bit worried about one patrol being the "hooligans" and they will certainly need an adult with patience, but all in all they brought up more details, characteristics, and personalities about the scouts than I knew. It's as good a setup as I've seen. For the most part the old patrols stayed together. One thing great about boy led is it takes the stress off the adults to do it "right" as there is no right.

Hey Bradley, you must have been doing a great job sharpening that axe to cut yourself. Anyway, have you ever heard the expression the glass is half full (versus half empty)? You still have one corner left, how many do you need? Here's what I'd suggest. Go back and figure out exactly why you cut yourself. There's another old saying, accidents don't happen, they are caused. So figure out what caused you to cut yourself. Just a guess, but were you wearing gloves while sharpening the axe? I've found that you need the right file to sharpen an axe. I prefer a single cut, fine file. It also has to be sharp. Yes, files get dull. So figure out exactly what you did wrong and go over everything else you should have learned the first time. Then go talk to your SM and tell him you figured out what you did wrong and that you'd like to try again and do it right. Show him that you know how to do it right. Once you've done that, and assuming he tells you you did a good job, ask him if he'll give you a new card. Timing is important. Anyway, one of two things will happen. 1) He'll give you a new card and you're good to go. 2) He won't. But that doesn't matter because you'll never make that mistake again and that one corner will get you through to your Eagle Court of Honor, where you can give it back to your dad. I promise you, he'll really appreciate it. Good luck!

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

BD, for me there is no magic number. It is all about the spirit or soul of the scout. I can't reduce one's character to a simple formula as it depends on the person. If a scout has a history of really helping out his troop, is enthusiastic, is a great leader, and then one day gets caught shoplifting, I suspect when the SM talks to him he'd feel like crap. If the SM then asks him what the right thing to do is he'd repay his debt several times over and do it cheerfully. If it happens again, which I doubt, it would likely be a case of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. For the scout that's always brawling, maybe the shoplifting is the final straw.

 

I dislike the checklist aspect of Eagle (other than the Eagle project). To me it's all about attitude and what they do. Builder of men? Absolutely! People can learn a lot from their mistakes. Those that do are Eagle material.

 

KDD, I'm not saying that at all. In my book, one's character is defined by one's deeds much more than one's thoughts. If the scout is generally a great kid but slips up once, it's a great learning opportunity, not a reason to chuck him. Atoning for your mistakes is much harder than not making mistakes and shows a lot of character.

 

I still don't think we're that far apart.

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

BD, I don't think we're that far apart. 10 times, no question. A brawler that keeps brawling? I'd get rid of him. Note that I said forgiveness is a two way deal. If the scout honestly works on atoning for his errors then I'm willing to forgive him. Atonement and forgiveness go hand in hand. There can't be one without the other. It's two sides to the same problem. If he only wants to make it right enough to get away with it then, yes, I agree that it's over. That's why I also said it's not easy to decide what's in another's heart.

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

I agree with dcsimmons, don't put him on the defensive. Listen to him. Ask him about his scout history. Is he proud of what he's done? Do the younger scouts look up to him? Is he a role model? Is he proud of his Eagle project? Read him an Eagle charge and ask him if that resembles him. When he gets to "yeah, but ..." have him read the first line of the Scout Oath. Ask him if he's doing his best to God and his country. All you can do is your best. There will always be people you disagree with. There will also always be people you agree with. You'll likely marry someone that you don't agree with all of the time, but you'll love her anyway. You do your best and focus on that.

Help out or shut up.

JoeBob, the Formin, Stormin, Formin, comment brought back a memory of WoodBadge. All the people are arrows and they're pointing every which way (formin), and they slowly align till they're pointing the same way (performin). So I asked, what do you do with 15 year olds when rather than arrows you have BBs (that aren't going in any direction)? Never did get an answer.

 

What you're asking is a common question among those trying to turn around a program: "I kind of know what it should look like but how do I get there? What has worked for people before me?" That's not in Woodbadge. Woodbadge is: "I have a good idea, how do I implement it?"

 

For people that come from a unit with a good culture, be it boy-led or a great Pack, Woodbadge is great because you can already learn how a unit should run by looking at your own unit. If you're trying to turn things around then Woodbadge doesn't give you the "vision" that they talk about. Once you get the vision you can use Woodbadge skills to implement it.

 

Based on what you've written, I've been there. So I came here looking for ideas and started asking questions. I tried a lot of ideas, and what I found is while a lot of ideas are really good, they make assumptions that you might not know about. For example, the first time I tried Kudu's 300' thing it failed (boy not led, adult not led, Lord of the Flies!), but now that I have the leadership and teamwork at a minimum level, 300' (separate the patrols) is working well. Regarding training, I tried ILST and my scouts slept through it and had no take home skills to handle the exact problem you mention (younger scouts that don't want to do dishes). So I took the ILST syllabus and compressed it down to 30 minutes without any exercises and then added a few hours of 15 minute exercises. Every exercise requires a team to solve a problem in 5 minutes. Members take turns being the leader for each exercise. There's time up front to let them know what the problem is and for them to plan for it, 5 minutes to do the exercise, and time to reflect on what happened. The idea is to give each scout several chances to lead. One example is make a cake batter and get it into the oven, if it's not in the oven within 5 minutes then I'd toss what they made and nobody would get the cake. About a half hour later was the problem of cleaning up. If they didn't get it done in 5 minutes then I got the cake. Talk about incentive. I found paper airplane projects on line. I had a big domino set and did some stuff with that. I took the communication exercise out of the ILST manual. I had them teach the sheep shank. I asked them to identify and call a scout that's not advancing. If the problem didn't seem too hard to do then I'd coach a scout, before hand, to be a pain in the neck. This is where scouts that don't want to clean come in. It got to the point where the scouts wanted a problem scout. Sometimes the scouts would have so much fun being the pain that I'd let it go and let them enjoy it. They had fun with it. The other thing I noticed is that it was a challenge and they were up for it. When it was your turn to be the leader everyone was watching to see how you did. This is so much better than something like the telephone game. The first time I tried this was a month ago so I'm still playing with it. I just need a lot more ideas.

 

As for SM time management, my first impression is that the committee, the PLC, and the ASMs should take some of the load off of you. Until I got the committee to do its job I didn't have time to do mine, which was work with the boys. I had a bullying type of issue and I talked to the PLC and asked them to handle it while respecting the Scout Law. They did a great job. I also have a PLC ranging in ages of 13 to 17. I also ask all of the scouts to nominate patrol leaders, so that's how we get the hooligans out of those positions. One subtle benefit is that it's not me telling a scout he can't be a PL, it's his peers. They're a lot harsher than I am and quite fair. That also makes me the good guy so when I suggest they work with the new scouts to gain some confidence and let everyone know they're serious, they listen.

 

Maybe this is another topic, but I wonder if Scouter-Terry could put a wiki on this website and get some people to start editing some of the knowledge that's here and make it easier for people like you to get to. That would help Woodbadge as a resource.

 

Sorry for stealing your thread, Packsaddle.

I was only talking about PLs, and the scouts decide who they are. As jblake says, there are different types of hooligans. An 11 year old that doesn't want to wash dishes should not be made a PL for 6 months. However, putting him in charge of washing dishes for a campout and being ultimately responsible for a clean patrol box at the end of the campout, priceless. Some scouts are hooligans because they don't know how to fit in. I've encouraged a few of them to be Troop Guides and it has done wonders. Another issue is cliques of kids that feed off each other. I'm working on that right now. I think I'm just going to present the problem to the PLC. They know these kids better than I do. So, I generally agree with the idea of putting them in charge of something, but it should be something they'll succeed at. If they volunteer, like jblake's popcorn thing, I'd be up for that.