Lisabob

First, Trev is absolutely right that earning the emblem is not a requirement for Webelos (this is an either/or requirement. Rather than earning the emblem the boy could do the alternate requirement with his family, without belonging to any organized religion). Alternately, a boy and his family may choose for him to earn an emblem from a faith to which he does not subscribe. While I suppose this is a bit unusual, it might be viewed as a sort of educational experience, learning about someone else's faith. I know a few boys who have done this, including my own son. For my son I think it gave him a deeper understanding and appreciation of the religion whose emblem he earned. This, despite the fact that we don't belong to that church and in all likelihood probably never will. (PS, keep in mind that a boy need not be a Christian to be a scout. So you may have families who do not teach their child anything about Jesus, too. That's ok with the BSA, which is not a Christian organization.)(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Brent, as I'm sure you know, Luntz is a rather controversial figure as a pollster because he is strongly partisan and there have been allegations in the past that perhaps his polling methodology is not as unbiased as it might be. (I believe he was reprimanded by his professional organization of polling firms in the 1990s for this but I'd have to dig up all the details and don't feel like doing the research.) He has worked closely with such conservative Republicans as Newt Gingrich and the Contract for America gang. That's not to say he doesn't know polling. He clearly does. And for a really interesting look into this guy's influence, people should check out his book "Words that Work." But he's not an independent pollster, he's a Republican pollster.

You might also want to go to round table to connect with other local units who are selling popcorn. Sometimes a trade can be arranged where they take your excess inventory off your hands and maybe they have too much of something you want.

When McCain picked Palin I noted that she would be mocked, manipulated, and generally considered a lightweight by most of Washington. And hey, guess what, even her own campaign staff apparently doesn't bother to include her in decision making. She apparently "read about" the McCain/Palin ticket's decision to pull out of Michigan, conceding defeat in a major industrial midwest state a full month before the election, in the newspaper! (that's incredible strategy in its own right and generally doesn't happen in close elections - bodes ill for McCain) SO much for being a valuable asset in terms of making policy decisions. She isn't even consulted by her own campaign staff. Nor, apparently, does she have the good sense to keep that tidbit to herself, as she then went on record opposing McCain's decision to stop targeting MI. And what's this nonsense about being annoyed by Couric's "gotcha" question when Couric asked her what newspapers she reads? C'mon now! "Gotcha" is when someone asks you to name the top 4 leaders in the line of succession for the Azerbaijani president. It isn't when someone asks you a perfectly reasonable and everyday-life sort of question. One could assume that, as a mayor, a governor, a business owner, and an "oil and gas regulator" that Ms Palin does follow the news, right?

We have a bugler (well, a trumpeter). He does what GW suggests with the exception of officer's call. Would be a nice one to add and he's a dedicated fellow. Maybe I'll suggest that one to him. Hey, the kids have to be told SOMEWHERE, Stosh. Might be better if maybe the bugler came to the PLC and demonstrated what's what for the boys.

Heh. TO be fair, a lot of the extra "stuff" that makes up the additional $150 billion is stuff that Congress would have gotten around to doing sometime in the next 6 months anyway. Staving off the Alternative Minimum tax for middle class voters it was never intended to target anyway (which is done annually it seems), extending the renewable energy tax breaks, etc. Now some was newer and some was, yes, pure pork having nothing to do with the economic crisis at hand.

To be clear, Dean, I don't think Council Commissioner is a paid position. But I completely agree that this seems to be a misuse of someone's scouting affiliation simply to score quick political points.

Yes, let's live within our means, except that the price of gas is up, what, 40% in the last 4 months? Food prices are up something like 15% over the same time frame? Not to even mention health care costs and college costs. Sorry but my wages are not keeping up. I don't know too many folks who can claim otherwise either, no matter the industry. So what should people give up first? Eating? Or Medical care? Rampant consumerism and undisciplined savings habits are certainly a big problem but let's not assume that the structure of the economy is such that many people could simply go cold turkey on credit tomorrow, even if they desired to do so. Not everybody is out spending wildly and irresponsibly on the latest fashion accessory. An awful lot of folks are merely attempting to survive and hang onto their positions on the fringe of the middle class, on the barest minimums.

Well Palin didn't collapse into an incoherent heap and Biden didn't have a bout of foot-in-mouth disease. So much for drama Seriously, just being able to answer questions (more or less) was probably enough to be considered a victory of sorts for Palin. Some of her answers were a bit odd, inconsistent with her party's stance, and even a little worrisome (more power for the Veep in the Senate?? Really a good idea after 8 years of Cheney's power-mongering??). She clearly lacks the depth that Biden has, I don't think she made a strong enough case against the Democratic ticket, and she didn't win me over by any stretch. I still think she's vastly unqualified. But it wasn't the disaster it might have been for her personally and that alone ought to result in a modest boost for McCain's chances. On another note, I hear McC has abandoned his attempts to win MI as of today. Bad move on his part, except that it seems he's now fighting to hold onto the typical Republican advantage in so many other states (VA, NC, CO, NV, IN, OH). Having lived in IN for some time I'll just say that I can hardly imagine a more "red" state (with a couple local exceptions) so if IN is truly up for grabs, McCain is still in a whole lot of trouble.

I like the photo idea a lot. Those red jackets are very expensive and may, or may not, be appreciated. A coin is likely to get lost or possibly be seen as just another dust gatherer. A unit photo of the boys, or a collage of photos, will be a lasting reminder of why this person supports scouts, costs little to put together, and is more personalized than giving him "stuff." I know that if it were me, I would greatly appreciate such a thoughtful gesture even though I wouldn't necessarily be delighted to get some little (or big) trinket-y sort of thing.

I'd take a moment to be delighted to know that at least one scout actually reads his book! (and then, probably what Ed said)

The obligations of a unit toward youth are quite different than toward adults. There is a world of difference in terms of responsibilities and expectations between being a youth member and an adult leader. Developmentally speaking, 18th birthday is a very arbitrary cut-off between youth/adult, but it is none the less the BSA's cut-off for boy scouting, and so everyone involved should consider the differences here. When taking on an adult leader the most important question should be "can this person do this job?" If the answer is no then they should not be selected, plain and simple, no matter what the back story. If the answer is "maybe" then perhaps a trial run in a supporting role is a way to find out without causing harm to the youth members (or hopefully, to this new "adult" either). Just because he's registered as an ASM does not mean he needs to be taking the lead in working directly with the boys with no conditions. Give him small tasks to do that are more behind the scenes and see how that goes. As others have said, a clear set of behavioral expectations and an emphasis on training are important too. In this case I would expect to include the SM and the young man's mother in this conversation too, given that you sound like you want to keep them on as active supporters of the troop. Even with young men who have no disability, the transition from "scout" to "adult" is really challenging a lot of the time. Let's face it, most of the time the boys do not see the way the adults work to support a troop. What the boys see is that adults show up, transport them to/from events, go camping and look like they're having fun too, without an annoying PL to tell them what to do. Maybe also that adults are good at saying "no" and exercising authority (especially in more adult-led troops, which I think isn't uncommon). So hey, being an adult leader looks easy. Do the fun stuff, tell the "little kids" what to do and expect to be obeyed, and kick back, right? It can come as a rude shock to new 18 year old ASMs that the reality of adulthood is a good bit more complicated than that. Maybe if you have another adult "mentor" for your new ASMs (all of them, not just this fellow), that could help ease the transition for him and for others in the future.

One of the things I've discovered over the years as a teacher is that sometimes there is not "a lesson" to be learned from an experience, but rather, multiple lessons. Different people will take away different things from role playing and other experiential learning, based on their personalities, backgrounds, and also the roles they played in the game. Sometimes this is actually a benefit, especially when talking about complex psychological phenomena like group dynamics. But yes, occasionally students take away a very different lesson than was intended. When that happens, as (I think) is often the case with the game in question here, good teachers and leaders need to do two things. First, they need to make sure they have an adequate and effective de-briefing with participants. This will serve to uncover unintended "lessons" that the teacher otherwise might not even know had been "learned." It also allows for some shaping and framing of the experience to occur, and often puts those "errant" lessons in a different light for the participants. In the event that some people took a truly divergent set of lessons from an activity, a good follow-up debriefing can result in participants being brought back together onto the same intellectual (and sometimes emotional) footing again. Second, teachers need to re-evaluate the structure of the activity and how it was presented. Perhaps there is a flaw in one or both of these that made it more likely that some participants would pick up unintentional and even undesirable lessons. Certainly many WB staffers understand and are capable of the above. Some probably are not. Either way, simply to assert that there is only one lesson to be taken from any dynamic exercise such as this game, and that people who take away a different lesson are wrong or didn't understand or whatever, is not grounded in solid pedagogy.

In the parent thread on email communication, one poster wrote that scouts who refuse to communicate effectively, miss deadlines, don't pay attention, inconvenience others, etc., would find it difficult to get the SM conference signed off in his troop. Ed writes that if a SM Conference is held, the SM must sign off, because the conference is not a pass/fail requirement. This is regardless of the SM's feeling on whether a boy is ready for rank advancement. Ed writes that such issues should be dealt with in the BOR. I disagree. First, as a BOR member, my response to SM's who take this tack is (and has been) hey, thanks a lot. The SM is the program officer here, and the BOR is a quality control check. So why would the SM be sending a scout to a BOR who the SM thinks is not ready for advancement? That's just passing the buck and setting up both the boy and the BOR members for a nasty surprise. Second, while a "failed" conference arguably might be verboten, on the other hand, why couldn't an SM adjourn the conference, to be re-convened and finished at a later date once the scout has shown the necessary changes in behavior? If a scout really pushed the issue then yes, a scout has a right to demand a BOR. But that's a rather different dynamic than the one Ed is suggesting. Ed, if I'm reading you right, your approach leads to rubber stamp advancement because nobody feels able or willing to tell a boy "not yet." I've seen this in my son's troop from time to time (in fact, saw it last week! a kid who has been nothing but trouble, caused numerous problems at summer camp, and whose patrol fell apart under him while he was PL due to his breaking just about all points of the scout law when he actually bothered to show up at all, somehow got through his SMC for Life. I don't get it.) and it results in boys who are not good examples (let alone good leaders or even good scouts) "getting" ranks they certainly haven't earned. It cheapens the experience for other scouts who then question the integrity of the adults involved, the scout who is advancing, and the value of advancement as a method of scouting.

Beavah, Ed, and others - I'm not saying it is good or even smart, I'm just saying that's what appears to be happening. To claim that this whole mess won't, or isn't, negatively impacting "ordinary people" is to hide one's head in the sand.

It isn't uncommon for the district or council not to be in attendance at troop meetings, or for them not to know when/where troops meet. The reason for this is that the district and council do not have a hand in running the troop, in choosing troop leadership, in putting together troop programs or activities, etc., and thus there is little cause for the district or council to have a presence at regular troop meetings. Is there something specific you were concerned about, that you were looking to your council to help the troop deal with?

Does it impact us? Oh sure, you bet. Here's a list of just a few ways that this crisis can come home to roost. 1) Do you have a 401k or 403b as your main retirement plan? Pour yourself a stiff drink before you check your current portfolio's value and don't plan on retiring anytime soon. 2) Same thing if you've been investing money into a college account that's tied to the market. 3) Want to buy a home? Yes you can still get a mortgage but the terms of credit are much stiffer and people who would otherwise be good bets in normal times will be denied loans because credit it scarce right now and banks are over-reacting. 4) That means vacant properties that could have been sold will continue to sit empty, maybe just down the street from you. Empty houses are bad for the whole neighborhood - more opportunities for vandalism and other crime, unkempt yards lower the property value for other homes in the area too, and local gov'ts aren't collecting property tax on those homes. 5) Some businesses are beginning to report that they can't arrange short term financing to buy inventory. That will lead to empty shelves, loss of customers, laid off workers, and "going out of business" signs in the windows if it continues. 6) Think those laid off workers are just going to find another job? Well I hope so, but living in MI where last month's official unemployment was at nearly 9% (higher in our urban areas, and highest among all 50 states yet again, and projected to go up again this month), I'm not holding my breath. I've had many former students tell me in the last 6 months that even places like Borders, Target, and Starbucks aren't hiring folks with any sort of college degree because they figure (rightly) that those college-educated people will jump ship at the first opportunity for a better job. Great. Not even service industry jobs available for those who thought they were part of the educated middle class. 7) Have a look at the interest rate on your credit cards. It is likely to jump up, if it hasn't already done so. Price the interest rates on new car loans and student loans too. 8) Live in NY state? Were you aware that approximately 20% of NY state's tax revenue comes from the banking and insurance industries? And that NY is projecting a loss of about 40,000 jobs, directly related to this current crisis? 9) Entities like universities often rely on income from investments to fund their operations. Loss of income means cuts to programs, fewer sections of classes being offered (making it even harder to graduate in 4 years), higher tuitions, and job losses. 10) If you have college-bound kids or work with that age group (hey! Scouts!), think they'll make up for the rising cost of college with scholarships? Not necessarily if their endowment funds are tied to the markets. I'm involved with one scholarship fund that got told just this week that we may have to cut the size of our scholarship due to uncertain investment incomes resulting from Wall Street's roller coaster ride. I'm not one bit sympathetic to the investment banking industry, and I agree there's plenty of blame to go around, but even both presidential candidates seemed to finally "get it" the other night when they said that this is not just about "wall street," it is also about "main street." And hey, most of us live on or pretty near to main street. One way or another, bail out (err "rescue" is the new word) or no bail out, this is going to cost us all plenty of money.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

I don't know what other districts out there do. In mine, each SM gets an updated MBC list a couple times a year. On that list, EVERYONE registered as an MBC is shown, but the list also includes a column asking if they will counsel outside their troop and a Y/N response. That way the SM (should) know not to send a kid to a counselor who doesn't want to work with scouts outside a particular troop. But no, MBCs do not register as unit-level volunteers even if they only want to work with a single troop. (On the other hand, many MBCs are also registered as ASMs and committee members so they might be on unit rosters in those other capacities.)

Beaver, in my experience it often happens that the troop folks either never knew, or have long since forgotten, the rules and regs for cub scout advancement. If I had a dollar for every time some troop adult has tried to tell me something factually incorrect about AoL (in particular) ... ya know? Usually showing the troop folks what it says in writing in the CUB SCOUT advancement material, plus the Boy Scout joining requirements (re: age/aol status) is enough to get them to reconsider.

Hey since we're taking swings at the candidates here, I'm really curious. What do you guys make of McCain's request to shelve (I mean postpone) the first pres. debate, currently scheduled for this Friday night, because of the financial crisis? And Obama's apparent rejection of that proposal?

Hi Narraticong, Yes I noticed that DAC has a lot of organizational info on their website, as have some other area councils. Nice... Did they give you guys a cost estimate yet? I'm guessing ours would be pretty close to the same.

Oh GW, believe me pal, there's enough idiots to go around. Don't for one minute think that Republicans are any better than Democrats when it comes to this sort of thing.

"the president?" yes, the president should be smarter than this, I agree. Here's hoping that will be the case with whoever gets elected in November. "this president?" nah, this is the guy America elected because they wanted to have a beer with him. He's demonstrated his intellectual bona fides pretty clearly, don't you think?

Nah, the last 8 years of misstatements - which were not entertaining - are nearly over. Anybody remember "yellow cake uranium" that supposedly was making its way from Niger to Iraq, not to mention the other WMDs we "knew" Saddam had, or perhaps "Mission Accomplished?" Or closer to home, "you're doing a heckuva job, Brownie?" My personal view of Biden, based on his years of experience leading and serving on the Senate Foreign Relations committee (one of the most important, serious, and sensitive assignments in Congress), is that he really is quite capable if he would just keep his trap shut when there's a microphone nearby. At least I don't need to worry about whether he can find Iraq and Iran on a map.

Biden got some details wrong. THe "fireside chats" that FDR gave starting in 1933 (over the radio) were probably what Biden was thinking of. In those chats FDR was frequently a fairly straight shooter, not necessarily laying out detailed policy proposals as much as explaining in simple terms what the issues of the day (depression) were, and attempting to build up people's sense of confidence and hope. So yeah, Biden got details wrong if he said exactly what you quoted. He did, though, have the right general idea. (Before anybody pounces, as a student of history I would greatly prefer if Biden bothered to get the details right. As a Democrat, I'd greatly prefer he think before he speaks. As a realist, I'm not terribly optimistic on either count! Biden has his strengths but goodness knows he's gaffe-prone.)