Lisabob

Maybe suggest to your PLC that they discuss the meaning of "Courteous," which I have found many pre-teen and early teen boys cannot define. It seems to me that most or all of the things you mention, mmhardy, could be covered with a reminder of that one word.

There's different facets to quitting. There's quitting part-way through an activity that has been paid for and is not insignificant in terms of cost. If I were the one paying, I wouldn't accept that under most circumstances. I have told my child he can quit at year-end or season's end, but not in the middle of an activity. There's quitting when others are truly reliant upon you not to quit. I wouldn't be supportive of that under most circumstances either. There's quitting everything and withdrawing from the world. Not a good thing and often a sign that the individual needs expert help coping with something. Then there's quitting because it isn't something your heart is in, and there's something else you'd prefer to do but can't because time spent in scouting prevents you from pursuing your other activity. There's quitting because you're stretched too thin and therefore not able to give your best to things you care more deeply about. There's quitting to take up a new hobby or interest. There's quitting because you've done the same activities for a long time now and just want or need a breather. There's quitting because the program is so poorly run that it is nothing but a waste of time (though in scouts, it would be nice to channel boys toward a better troop if that's the situation). Those things aren't necessarily awful reasons to quit something. As for setting precedent, regardless of whether he's in or out of scouting, I think as a parent it is just fine to tell your kid that you won't stand by while he quits High School! But forcing a kid to stay in scouts when he truly does not want to, isn't necessarily going to teach him perseverance in other areas of his life. In fact, it might simply postpone the experience of not finishing something, until it really matters. I'm thinking, for example, about the many college students I know who fade away about 3/4 of the way through a semester, or who do not finish their degrees. They spend thousands of somebody's dollars and wander aimlessly with poor grades for a few years, before ultimately dropping out. Some of those kids probably would have benefited from experiencing whatever small or large regrets come with not sticking with scouting to earn Eagle when they were really close and could have done so with just a bit more effort. But three thoughts specifically about Eagle rank: 1) Some of the people I respect most are former scouts who did not make Eagle, yet they embody the character and confidence that scouting is all about, and 2) While you might be able to force your child into remaining in scouting, you cannot force him to earn Eagle. Ultimately he has to complete the requirements, not you, and 3) Although you could push him as you describe using bribes, begging, etc, at the end of the day what he may have is an Eagle award that he, himself, does not particularly value. In that case it is an empty symbol and it won't have taught him much, except perhaps resentment. Scouting is a great program and I don't like to see people quit. Teenage boys also don't always know what's best for them despite their assumptions to the contrary. But you know, there are other youth programs and other activities out there that also have similar character-building focus. Maybe there's another activity that would be more suitable for your teen at this time in his life.

How interesting that this topic has apparently become a hot one. I submit three general observations: 1) It seems that most units who have these types of items (bylaws, Codes of Conduct, whatever you want to call them) are larger units who are more prone to organizational/management issues due to their size. Maybe that says something about the pitfalls of joining a large unit. 2) Perhaps a simple unit "FAQ" is more in line for covering things people often need to check out like "what are dues and when are they paid?" rather than some highly formal set of bylaws or troop policy book. 3) Maybe we need to do a better job of orienting potential new members (and their parents!) to the character and nature of our individual units, if there are frequent problems developing from a lack of shared vision or understanding of the program and the unit's expectations.

Somebody said that codes of conduct tend to be oriented toward telling the parents what to expect, and I think there's a lot of truth in that. Heaven knows the boys do not read, memorize, quote, parse, and squabble over them, as adults sometimes do. With regard to the Jambo code, reading through it I kind of had a feeling that some of it was designed to prevent law suits in the case that little Johnny gets sent home without a refund for doing something stupid. So again, aimed more at the adults than the boys. That said though, the Jambo code isn't the worst thing on earth - at least it is reasonably short. Seriously, our troop's is many tens of pages long, seems to grow more every year, and spells out all kinds of details (some of which probably violate actual BSA policy). And large parts of it seem to have been drafted to deal with specific cases of misbehavior. Making policy for a whole unit on the basis of one specific experience is usually a bad idea! So is making up more "policy" to deal with symptoms of underlying problems (like, say, low attendance might be a symptom of a program issue so let's just mandate a certain attendance level) which also seems to be a common temptation.

We have a code of conduct. It is pretty useless in my view. When things do go wrong it tends not to get followed anyway most of the time, except as an after-thought. On one hand, it hampers the SM from using his good judgment and dealing expeditiously with a situation (gotta read the CoC first, which is at this point some 30 or 40 pages long). On the other hand, when it is used, it is often in response to specific situations or selectively enforced, which leaves things open to fairness critiques. The only thing the CoC appears to be much good for is to prolong committee meetings and, as Beavah said, to give some adults paper to hide behind instead of truly addressing the problem. When we joined the unit several years ago, I was of a different opinion, thinking that the well-developed CoC was a sign of a highly organized, efficient, and thoughtful group. As it turns out, the CoC is, just as Beavah said, a lot of "adult drivel" that distracts from real, honest use of the adult association method. Just my two cents.

Ouch. That's an ugly situation, basementdweller. Dean, you said that the parents of lower-ranked boys don't know what's happening with the webelos requirements and that is probably true, but if they stick with it, some of them will figure it out (and of those, some will care, some will not). I do not think you necessarily have to attend everything with this den or serve as a stand-in den leader since the WDL isn't doing his job. On the other hand, you could have a chat with the guy about advancement, ask him to help you understand what the boys did to earn those particular badges, and let him know you want to help him ensure that the boys who are interested have the opportunity to earn AoL. Tell the WDL that you will be scheduling a visit for BOTH webelos dens to a couple of troop meetings, and follow up by helping BOTH dens schedule a visit to a troop's outdoor activity (or two). If boys don't show up then that's on their shoulders but make it clear to all your webelos families and leaders - NOW - that in order to earn the Arrow of Light award the boys must either attend, or make alternate arrangements and that you'd expect the WDL to keep you in the loop in the latter case. (Including both dens means you can check w/ the W1 DL to see who showed up. It also means W1 boys have many more opportunities to complete those requirements - no point in waiting til they're W2s to do it, really.) As for citizen, fitness, and aquanaut, well (assuming a kid can swim), that's a pretty easy combination and an afternoon at the pool should suffice for aquanaut. However, note too that a boy must EITHER spend some time in a row boat with an adult OR earn the swimming belt loop (while a webelos) as part of the requirements. Now the belt loop is easy to earn, but if the DL is saying they got aquanaut but he isn't asking for the belt loop, then you could ask him to let you know when/where they went row boating - because, at least where I live, that's not a common activity and would raise a red flag in terms of believe-ability.

I debated whether to comment on the tour permit thing since it is kind of tangential. But here goes anyway. In my council, tour permits are only required if the unit in question is going somewhere out of council. I think our office staff might have some very cross words for us if suddenly every time a unit met anywhere but their regular meeting site, they filed a permit. Apparently some councils do require this but some do not. The original poster stated that his council DOES require it. So, let's spin off if we want to delve into whether they should or shouldn't. Bringing things back to the actual webelos requirements, please let's note that the AoL requirements specifically state that the visit to a troop meeting and outdoor activity are "with your Webelos den" and not "with your parents." So, if a permit is required by local council for den meetings that take place in off-site locations, then I suppose a den trip to visit a local troop does, indeed, require a permit in that council (whatever our opinions may be).

That's weird - it didn't post the first time so I edited and reposted, only to discover that it actually HAD posted the first time, just with a time delay. So I deleted the second post. - Lisa(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Yup, I am finding it funny that Republicans these days have such short memories. They all seem to have forgotten that there was a Republican majority in Congress from 2000-2006. Or maybe they believe that everything was golden and perfect until the end of 2006 when the Dems won in a landslide? (In that case, please explain why the Republicans suffered such disastrous losses in the 2006 midterm elections...) I'm with Beavah and Beaver. There is plenty of blame to go around. Making it sound like this is all one party's fault is just silly. But if you really insist on laying blame? 6 years of unified REPUBLICAN government seem to be a more logical place to start, than the last 2 years of divided gov't with a Republican president ultimately in charge (well, sort of in charge).

Hmm, tough situation. While I understand your temptation to just let things slide with this batch of Webelos and focus on doing it "right" from here on, I think it may be better to ask "what can I do to ensure that the boys have a real opportunity to fulfill the requirements?" In most places cross over doesn't occur until Feb/March so you still have some time to get these boys and their DL on track and give them a true experience. Honestly, the webelos rank is not difficult to earn at all, and boys should be able to earn it quickly. Most of it is to be done at the den level. As a WDL I asked parents to do #s 1 and 8 on their own and I took their word for it when the boys reported back that they and parents had done it. I also left most of the fitness badge to families, with clear guidance re: what they ought to be doing, since many of the requirements direct a boy to discuss the material with a family member (not a DL). Ask your DL about this. If s/he says these requirements were left to the families, then I think you have to take this at face value. If the answer is that the DL doesn't know whether these requirements are completed, then offer to help him or her explain to the parents in the den what needs to be done, how, when, and why. The one place your WDL might need more help with the Webelos rank would be with the citizenship pin. It can be tedious if presented poorly, and I've met a surprising # of adults who lack basic knowledge about the flag, anthem, and our gov't. So maybe encourage him to invite someone from the local community (military? police? fire? community leader? boy scout leader?) to a den meeting to cover some of the material. Even 4th and 5th graders still look up to these folks and might respond well to having such visitors. Offer to help the DL set up such a visit. Encourage the DL to have the boys work on webelos requirement 6 as a lead-in and/or follow-up to this visit. Maybe you can invite this den to do a flag ceremony at an upcoming pack meeting to give them an open opportunity. THe arrow of light is more challenging. It would be reasonable to ask the DL how, as a den, they completed requirements 4 and 5 without filling out a tour permit (since apparently required in your council). If it turns out that they really have not done this then I think as CM the best thing you could do would be to offer to HELP THE DL ARRANGE THESE ACTIVITIES! Most troops should be happy to help your webelos with these too. Schedule something like this with help from some troop leaders and bingo, all the boys (and your Webelos DL) have to do is show up and participate. Your DL may need some help with the basic scout skills that are part of the outdoorsman pin (required for AoL) too. Maybe you can also offer to assist with those, or help the DL find someone from a local troop who would be willing to lend a hand. Most scout troops have connections with some first-responder or EMT folks, or at least some leaders and advanced scouts with 1st aid experience (it is a required merit badge for Eagle rank and 1st aid skills are included in the Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and 1st Class rank requirements too) who could probably help with the readyman pin as well. Bottom line: if you still have 2-4 months before cross over, you still have time for the boys in that den to genuinely meet the requirements, have fun doing it, and make connections to local troops in the process. It sounds like the Webelos DL isn't likely to make it happen on his own. So, as CM the best thing you can do (for the boys, and for your own conscience) is to help that WDL use the remaining time to have a solid program that allows those boys to really and truly earn their badges. And who knows, maybe some of those boys would even consider trying out boy scouts, if they had a good experience doing more boy scout-like things in these last couple of months. That, after all, is a large part of the purpose of the requirements for webelos and Arrow of Light ranks. Good luck, and I hope you'll let us know how it turns out!

Not to mention grumpy. Put some sugar in your coffee! There's nothing wrong with trying to teach boys (and adults) to be a bit more aware and respectful of flora, fauna, and other people while outdoors. LNT may not be perfect but it simply does not resemble what you are trying to make it out to be.

GAHillBilly, I'm sure you've heard the phrase "correlation is not causation." Applied to this case, it means that the people who are WB-trained tend to also be the ones who are available and committed and have (most of?) the knowledge necessary to be good trainers in other aspects of the BSA's adult training program. Additionally, they are a known quantity with large networks of other scouters in the district and council, which is one side-benefit of attending WB. So Wood Badgers probably get called upon in higher percentages than non-Wood Badgers, to help run programs, provide training, staff committees, and do a bunch of other Scouter activities. The part about correlation and causation: Any faulty information that an IOLS trainer might have promulgated are his or hers, and not the result of what he or she was taught at WB. The fact that you noticed a lot of trainers are also Wood Badgers is perhaps related to the people being chosen as trainers, but content of IOLS and WB are entirely different. Beyond that, I do understand your general frustration and maybe LNT should really be called Leave Minimal Trace, but that's not the BSA's decision because it is not the BSA's program. Aspirational names are common place though, and I think maybe you're missing the forest for the trees, so to speak. Maybe a better way to think about the ethic of LNT is that the gist of it can be better understood through the Scout Law. Scouts are trustworthy - they can be trusted to take good care of the land they traverse, whether public or private land; courteous - they know how to camp and behave outdoors in ways that are not obnoxious to others; obedient - they follow local laws regarding their outdoor behavior; thrifty - they don't treat the natural world as a throw-away item, but rather conserve and protect it for future generations to enjoy; clean - they pick up after themselves in an appropriate manner when outdoors; and maybe also reverent - they respect and revere who or whatever they believe to have created the natural world, as reflected in their actions.

I think you've received some good advice already. My main addition would be to PLEASE include the parents. Make sure the parents of the boy who was apparently doing the bullying, so that if things continue along these lines and eventually you do find yourself facing the decision to remove the boy, it isn't out of the blue. Make sure the parents of the boy who was bullied are informed so that they know you take their son's concern seriously and are dealing with it. And yes I would include the committee in the loop, or at least bring your CC into the loop. Many SM's do a regular report to the troop committee that includes any disciplinary issues. Depending on how your troop functions, this might be a good place to let people know that there was an incident and how you are addressing it. You might decide to keep names out of it (or not) depending on the dynamic in the troop at this point.

Looking at the requirements, most have either "show" or "demonstrate" or "describe" included in them. Those need to be shown or demonstrated or described to the counselor's satisfaction, and that is entirely at the counselor's discretion. Requirement 6 explicitly states that the ride must take place with the counselor. The rides in requirements 8 and 9 include some very specific information too. Just because the kid rides his bike "all the time" around the neighborhood or something, that alone doesn't fulfill the requirement as written. Whoever told you that once a kid says he did something, no questions can be asked, is blowing smoke. Ask this individual to show you exactly where that "written national BSA policy" can be found. For myself, not to be too hard core, but I tend to follow the "trust, but verify" approach. Sometimes kids do not fully understand (or haven't fully read) a requirement. Sometimes they fudge things. Sometimes their parents push them to outright lie. A few questions won't hurt. If the kid did it, he'll be able to show, demonstrate, and describe. If he didn't, he may learn something in the process of talking about it, and then doing it right.

OK I think we should have a new law. All politico-drively autobiographical accounts must be published to Kindle only. No killing trees to print that crap. On either side of the aisle.

Gee Lem, maybe you want to read what I wrote again. You queried how the Scout Oath and Law are put into action and why we see boys who have been in scouting for some years, still behaving in ways that are not consistent with the ideals in the Oath and Law. I answered by pointing out that many, probably most, boys do try to live up to those ideals and they become fine young men, but that for boys who have a lot of negative influences elsewhere in their lives, it isn't realistic to expect an hour a week of scouting to "fix" that. But who knows what ripple effect scouting might have, even on the worst-behaved boys. Maybe eventually the light bulb will go on for them, perhaps years down the road, as a result of their scouting experience. You queried whether scouting was attracting the "right" sort of adult leaders. I acknowledged that this is a topic that is really important and sometimes problematic. I agreed that we need to (and do) talk about some aspects of this matter. As for the tangential stuff - yes, I think it is tangential to get to whether we allow boys to call us by our first names. I don't. Others do. In my son's troop the expected behavior is that boys will address adults in respectful ways, which includes using last names in most cases. Other troops are different. But I don't think that has a lot of direct bearing on whether or not the Oath and Law are being followed. And no, I don't think you have a good grasp on what youth leadership is supposed to mean, probably as a result of the fact that you haven't been involved in boy scouts, ever, and it is a tricky concept even for those of us who are involved. Done poorly, youth leadership also isn't pretty. Done well, it is surprisingly powerful in a positive sense. I've seen both. Read the boards here for a while. Although there are many examples of youth leadership done poorly and resulting in problems, there are also a fair number of examples where it is done right and with great results. But you also have to understand that the ideals in the Oath and Law, and youth leadership as well, are ideals and they are somewhat fluid too. There is no one-size-fits-all definition to most of them. So I think that criticism is a bit off the mark. As for the BSA being "at fault," well sure there are things I think the BSA could do a bit differently. Effective advertising of its program is one. Better skill training for leaders is another. You know what though? At the end of the day, BSA Inc. does not run the local troop - local volunteers run the local troop. And I have seen this work incredibly well, and also seen it flop, depending on who the local volunteers are and whether they're willing to follow the outlines of the program as provided by the BSA (which work reasonably well most of the time, when followed). And finally, you had a lousy cub experience. I'm sorry to hear that. I can assure you that when I was involved as a leader in cubbing, it did not resemble craft time. Before making a decision for your boys based on fleeting experience 30 years ago, maybe you want to actually look at the current cub program and visit some local packs to see what they do. Some of them, no doubt, are struggling and might not be what you want. On the other hand, some might offer a really exciting program that your boys would enjoy. Like I said, BSA Inc. doesn't run the local program - local people do. You just might be surprised. You asked, I tried to answer from my perspective. So you didn't like my answers. That's unfortunate for you, but I don't see how that warrants your response.

Lem I get the feeling that you really do not have an understanding of "youth led" at all. That's understandable; I have found that there are plenty of folks in scouting who don't seem to get it (or want to) either. But, your criticism rings false because no one is equating youth leadership to a sort of anything-goes, Lord of the Flies, atmosphere. As for my son's troop (and egads, the "Lisabob affair???" not sure I like the feel of that!) while there have been some bullying issues and one of the boys involved was a PL at the time, there are also boys who've been through the troop with whom I have been deeply impressed. Currently four of our recent graduates are actively serving their country in Iraq and Afghanistan and another is preparing to do so. They certainly have my regard, as do most of the other boys in the troop. The fact that there are some bad apples is unfortunate but let's also be clear that the time a boy spends in scouting is far outweighed by the time he spends with his own family. And in the few cases of boys who I really don't appreciate very much, no surprise, I happen to think they have messed up family lives and I'm not too impressed with their parents either. Expecting an hour of scouting each week to outweigh the time spent under other influences is not realistic. About the best thing we can hope for is that some boys who have bad influences in other parts of their lives will at least recognize, by contact with caring adults in scouting, that there is another way to act. It is hardly going to be a miracle cure though. The larger issue you bring up is one that I think might be worth considering - what sort of adults are attracted to, and brought into, scouting these days? What are their relative strengths and weaknesses as a cohort? We discuss that from time to time on the board when we talk about building real outdoor skills, which most adults no longer have from daily experience. Or when we talk about the over-protective nature of raising kids in today's society and how that makes it harder to pursue "youth leadership" within a troop. Or when we talk about the atomization of community and the decline in volunteerism in general. That's all worth discussion. Your tangential points though, strike me as way off base and drawn from a lack of experience or understanding.

Ours are on demand, typically chaired by the troop advancement person or the troop committee chair, and with a District Advancement Committee representative present. This varies by troop but I know our troop has a tendency to want to see an outside community member involved too, often a teacher or religious leader or someone from the organization that benefited from the Eagle project. Most of the DAC guys take a rather low profile approach but some are more active and a couple tend to try to run things - which is ok in some situations, less so in others. I suppose it depends on the experience of the people involved and whether there are problems.

I find it kind of surprising that people take cheap shots at teh USPS. These are the same folks who, for less than 50 cents, will deliver a letter in a couple of days to practically anywhere in the country. The USPS is also one of the very few self-funding government corporations in existence - in other words it is not a perennial money suck on the budget like Amtrak. Sure DHL and UPS and FedEx exist to provide faster (and higher priced) services. But that doesn't mean the USPS is a lousy organization. Rather, it means some enterprising folks figured out that there was an under-served niche out there and decided to fill it. I believe we call that "the market" and most folks figure that's a good thing. Now you're griping about that too? And no, I don't work for the postal service either.

All will be negatively impacted, true, but the reality of things is that youth will simply find some other outlet. If the adults at all levels (cubs too) don't provide a solid basis for the program then the youth will just leave for something else, or won't join to start with. And that sounds like what's happening. To expect them to either join a weak unit or to stick with a failing unit (not that taguy's necessarily is either of those) is to expect a degree of loyalty to Scouting (not the activities, but the movement) that kids just aren't likely to show. As kids, they want to know "what will I get from this program immediately or at least in the near future" and "is it fun?" but not "why should I sacrifice my limited free time to help maintain scouting as a viable option for other youth in my community." That's big-picture adult thinking.

OK folks here's the deal. If the big 3 go bankrupt, all of you who live in OH WI and IL can start clearing out the extra bedroom because all of us in MI will be looking for a new place to stay while we sort out our remaining (and rather glum) options. Well actually wait a minute, there's a lot of auto industries in those states too...maybe we'll spread further afield. On a more serious note, this issue got full-day media blitz today in MI on public radio. It is on the front page of all the newspapers and everyone is talking about it. Our governor cut short a business promotion trip to go to Washington to lobby for this bailout. I don't work in the auto industry and none of my family does either, thank goodness. But the impact of a collapse in that industry will be felt on a huge number of other sectors of the economy. MI's economy has been in a shambles for some time as a result of declines in this industry and this will just about finish off hope of improvement. It is certainly true that the big 3 (and MI, and the country, and for that matter people working in that industry) should have been more pro-active and seen things coming a long time ago. So I hardly want to give anybody a free pass. But we're talking about an awful lot of jobs here. Conservative (non Auto industry) estimates are that something like 3 million jobs could be lost if the big 3 go under. Those are not all directly for Ford/GM/Chrysler, but also all of their suppliers. It does NOT take into account the ripple effect on the rest of the (non-auto) economy though, so other estimates go much higher, up to 13 million in some reports. In a state where unemployment is already the highest in the nation, that's just downright scary. And if Congress is willing to throw billions at big bankers, I darn well do expect that they can spare some chump change to keep literally millions of people employed. You all may not live in MI but don't throw us under the bus.

1) Go to your Day Camp Director and tell them you need one if they expect you to run their range next summer. 2) Go to your DE and tell them the same thing. 3) Go to your district committee chair and tell them the same thing. While only the DE is a professional staffer, I would wager that when you explain the situation to your Day Camp director he or she will go bananas and ensure that the booklet gets ordered for you, rather than risk losing his or her shooting sports director. (If none of the above work then you may want to consider whether you'd even want to run a range for goof balls who can't get their acts together enough to get you the book)

LOL, Rush on Air America, now that's funny. Brent, there's a big difference between house members saying they support something in the abstract, and it coming to a vote and passing in reality. If Pelosi, Schumer,et al, manages to actually bring back the Fairness Doctrine and pass it through the House, I'll eat my sock. (Hmm, maybe not...how 'bout, I'll send you some nice MI maple syrup?) Til then, I don't think anybody needs to worry about it.

There's a guide that is readily available for purchase - I used to have a copy when I was the Archery range master at cub day camp. I bought a new copy at the scout shop each year that I did this for my assistant range masters, and no, none of us had been to NCS. It has been about 5 years since I last did this but I would be surprised if the book is now restricted. I suspect your scout shop person was just misinformed or confused about what you were asking for. So, you may want to try again and maybe email your cub day camp team to ask them to help you track it down too.

Your sister might consider having her son approach a likely candidate. Being a MBC is not a hard job, it is fun, and it generally does not take up a lot of time for any given individual. If her son explains what the merit badge is, what a counselor's responsibilities are, and asks a person to do it, he might get a surprisingly positive response. Most people are less likely to say no to a kid. It would help, too, if her son (or her) also could provide contact info (district MB person or local scout office) for the would-be MBC to get the person properly registered with council. Switching troops shouldn't enter into this, whether easy or hard to do. MBCs do not need to have any affiliation with any troop at all, as it is a district position. THerefore, if one troop in the area is low on MBC contacts, probably all troops are facing the same problem.