Lisabob

Wow boomer, that is *really* offensive. Or anyway, it would be if it hadn't made me laugh so hard. One thing I've never been accused of is needing to "run to Daddy" when I have a problem with something. Actually I don't think I've ever been accused of attempting to hide behind a smiley face on anything, either. In fact I am pretty sure that whatever criticisms and aspersions are cast upon me usually lean in the opposite direction. Sheesh. Please boomer, pause between typing and hitting submit to imagine how your message is likely going to come across.

Heck, I'm a liberal in scouting. I'm routinely outnumbered, but that's ok. There are a few folks in the troop who love to talk politics and we do this sometimes in a fairly spirited fashion. But you have to know your conversation partners and you have to know when to draw a line. Much as I disagree with some of my fellow scouters' political views, at the end of the day we're all in scouting for the same reason and it isn't a political one. THat said, I've had two experiences like you are describing. One was within my son's troop and the other was at Wood Badge. For about a year we had a parent/ASM in the troop who had all kinds of disparaging remarks to make about people from the Middle East (or really, anybody who wasn't native-born in the USA, or whose parents weren't native-born, or who looked like maybe they weren't "from here.") He was really obnoxious and he did this in front of the boys too. One time I lost my patience when he started on about some poor lady who was (gasp) daring to speak another language on her cell phone and how all those (insert nasty name) immigrants were ruining the country. I called him on it in front of all of the other adults and a few scouts. He stammered, attempted to defend himself (badly), and stomped off. Now that's not a tack I would generally take but it was just that bad, what he was saying. I think he was surprised that nobody else took up for him. He left the troop a little while later, not for that reason, but for others (he was angry about lots of things). The other experience I had was in my second WB weekend, where a bunch of folks sitting around the camp fire started in on ethnic and religious slurs. They really, deeply, offended some of the Catholic scouters present. They were asked, nicely and not so nicely, to cut it out but they would not listen. Several folks ended up leaving the camp fire in disgust and unfortunately, it really colored the end of the WB experience for many of us. It certainly shined a spotlight on which scouters I would, or wouldn't, be hanging around with after WB was over with. I think that you have a right to speak up. If you can do it quietly over a friendly cup of coffee the first time, that's great and maybe it will work. If there's a critical mass of jerks though, you may be in for a tougher haul. Then you need to decide if you want to subject yourself - and your son - to that sort of atmosphere every month. For me, this would be one of the relatively few issues I'd take to the CO, if the SM and committee chair were unresponsive. And if the CO took a hands-off approach, we'd be looking for a different troop.

Well I don't know, vol. I don't have Y membership numbers, but I can tell you that all the Y camps in our area are full every week, all summer long. The one my son has attended is usually full with a waiting list by about March. That, in a lousy economy. I'm not sure I'd say they're suffering. Also, perhaps we have different ideas about standards and values, but I have always thought that the non-denominational approach that the Y takes nicely compliments the sort of "timeless values" people so frequently speak of with approval in the BSA.

OK, I can give you a recent example. Our guys went climbing recently. Cost was about $40. That included the gym fee (about $28), campsite rental ($1), and food ($11). The month before, they went fishing, no campsite fees, so total cost of $11 per boy. I think that they could do $6/boy if the boys are bringing some food items from home or if the troop is supplying some of the main ingredients for some meals.

Everybody around here shuts down in summer. I guess, though, that the definition of "shut down" is debatable. Most troops I'm aware of do a bunch of stuff, like: summer camp parades high adventure community service fundraising some youth training (NYLT, TLT) during the summer months. What they do NOT do, is hold weekly meetings or regular PLCs, or regular committee meetings. Honestly, to some degree I like that approach better. The weekly meetings are usually the kids' least-favorite part of scouting. They want to be DOING, not sitting in the local middle school cafeteria talking and planning.

Bingo. It isn't the name, it is the policy that needs to be examined. The problem with the BSA is that it IS a group that refuses to allow certain boys to join. While it has that right, it must then abide by the consequences of that decision. But it also would not change things for the BSA one bit if the Y suddenly became a discriminatory organization too. The BSA would still face these problems, which stem from the BSA's apparent desire to set exclusionary youth membership standards and yet also expect government entities to violate local, state, and federal law in order to fund and support BSA units.

" There is no law I know of that makes it illegal to use foul language - in fact I'm pretty sure that type of thing is protected by our laws. " Well you had to ask, didn't you Dean. Michigan had exactly such a law, prohibiting the use of foul language in earshot of women and children, until about five years ago. A guy and his buddies were canoeing. Somehow, the fellow ended up in the water, instead of in the canoe. He let loose a blue streak. Little did he know, just around the bend were some women and children. His case actually went to court, where he was convicted and fined. The law was eventually overturned as a direct result of the general uproar, but it had been on the books for decades and, evidently, was still being enforced from time to time.

I like Twocub's advice. We complain a lot about lazy teens looking to cut corners and all, but it should also be recognized that teens typically have very strong senses of fairness and justice, and that they have reasonably well developed abilities to apply reason. Many kids would respond very well to just the sort of questions Twocub listed. (Of course some really are, to borrow a term, lazy little toads, but that doesn't sound like the case in your original post, Wens) In fact, this boy might end up becoming a ring leader for the type of changes you want to see in your troop. He might agree that PORs haven't been what they should be. He might take up the offer to improve that situation. In doing so, he might inspire others (youth and adult). He certainly gives you an opening to do more on the adult side to mentor, teach, and advise all of the boys in PORs. Depending on how your conversation with this boy goes, you might end up passing him. I could imagine a conversation where you ask the types of questions Twocub posted, and he tells you that he is in no special rush to earn Eagle and leave - that he'd really like to take some time to work on his leadership and develop his POR skills, once he gets through this Life BOR. That, to me, is a boy who is ready to successfully complete the Life BOR. Just make sure that everybody is on the same page about the next step. If he completes the BOR, make sure he's aware that you'll be looking for more from him as a Life Scout. And follow up on that. If you postpone the BOR's completion, make sure he understands what you want him to do before he is ready for Life rank. And follow up on that, too.

I stand (partly) corrected. This change did occur after the Dale decision, but later than I had thought. Thanks, Merlyn, for clarifying the time line.

Dues: $30 One-time equipment fee for new scouts: $35 Typical camp out $20 (ten per year) Typical Summer Camp $300 Figure between $550-$800, depending on the year, the cost of summer camp (we don't have a council camp and we go out of region every other year), and the nature of camp outs.

Boomer, As has been commented upon elsewhere, the public schools do not currently charter BSA scout units. My understanding is that this change took place in the 90s, after the Supreme Court case (Dale), in which the BSA successfully argued that it is a private club and can therefore discriminate with regard to membership. While Dale was about homosexuality and not atheism, the broader point stands; private clubs can set membership requirements more or less as they see fit. The problem comes from having government institutions (schools, among others) sponsor groups that explicitly discriminate on the basis of religion. This puts government institutions at odds with the Supreme Court's various rulings on the meaning of the establishment clause and civil rights. So, it has been quite some time since public schools have routinely sponsored scouting units. Many such units did migrate to "Parents of School X" clubs, or to PTOs, or to VFWs, etc. The fundamental question in this matter was whether the BSA's other programs like Explorers are sufficiently organizationally distinct from the BSA to merit government sponsorship. Rules for who can join an Explorer Post differ from a scout troop. Explorers is a separate division. The BSA has maintained that it is ok for government entities to sponsor Explorers, as a result. Evidently LA Police and Fire have reached different conclusions. It really is a shame that kids will lose out on wonderful programs as a result. On the other hand, the problem could be most easily resolved if the BSA would simply change its discriminatory practices so that all children could benefit from scouting programs. The BSA has tried to play it both ways, maintaining their self-professed status as a "private religious club" with restrictive membership requirements while also expecting significant government backing. It is time for the BSA to recognize the true costs of their membership policy decisions and either pay those costs without complaint, or change the membership policy.

Likewise. Baden, you do not know what "all of us" think. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

A Scout is Friendly. A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own. A Scout is Courteous. A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along. A Scout is Kind. A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, he does not harm or kill any living thing. That's "what's wrong with that," in addition to legal perspectives on civil rights.

Well it seems that we all agree, the kids lose, and over something that should never have been an issue in the first place. So I'm sure glad to know that you'll all support a change in BSA membership policy to avoid this silliness.

Maybe this is why there is now a "good manners" belt loop for cub scouts. Of course reality is that adults do cuss. I've been known to let fly a few choice phrases when idiot drivers have endangered me on the road. Still, I try not to do it. I also try to watch the way I refer to other people's deities. It is a matter of courtesy to others, and self-respect too. The challenge with Dean's last sentence is that the "removing oneself from the situation" option can result in boys (and their parents) quitting scouts. At least, that has happened in my son's troop. A percentage of the cross overs who quit every year cite this sort of thing. One year, we had a whole group leave because of it. Well, and the bullying that was also occurring, along with the language. Seems the two went hand in hand. Expecting a brand new scout, at 10-11 years old and still in elementary school, to stand up to a bunch of older kids about bad language is probably not realistic. We lost several good scouts and parents to this. What a shame, these were exactly the people of character we should want IN the program. For this reason I believe such matters should be addressed and I commend Mafaking for wanting to address it.

Given the additional detail, I'd say run for the hills. You have a pack where the CM has been in charge for 10 years and is also the district trainer?! No way is he going to change his approach or step down/aside without a big fight. At least, that's my experience with these situations. The other thing you want to keep in mind is that sometimes DE's and district membership chairs are known to guide new families to struggling packs, in hopes of keeping the pack alive. I can't know if the DE did this in your case, but I think it is possible. The best guides to finding a good pack are your fellow parents, and your fellow volunteer cub leaders in your area. They will know each other and can usually provide you with a more candid assessment of the strong and weak programs in your area. The DE's job performance is fundamentally assessed based on quantity, not quality, although some lucky districts do have DEs who emphasize both. By the way, you may want to check on the charter org. Several years ago, in order to keep on the right side of some legal matters, the BSA switched from allowing public schools to sponsor packs, to not allowing that. So it might be the PTO, or some other school-related group, but it is probably not the district itself acting as the charter org for this pack.

Hello and welcome. I think that you will find a lot of good information in this forum. I do not think what you are describing is typical. It is certainly not what cub scouts ought to be like. The matter of what to do about it is tricky. Do you have other options (are there any other, established packs in the area)? Why did you choose to sign up with this pack to begin with? Are there other dens that you could switch to, within this pack (would a better den leader make enough difference for you)? How much of your time and effort do you want to put into this? As someone who has worked with a very small group of folks to rebuild a pack, I can tell you it is a lot of work, made much harder if there are some "old guard" types who don't want to make changes. On the other hand, it takes a surprisingly small amount of time to turn a willing pack from "dreadful" to "dynamic." But still a lot of work. What is the pack leadership like? Is there a Cub Master? (I sure hope so but you never know.) Are there assistant CM's? Who is on the committee? Are these people only involved because no one else would do it? Would they welcome you? Or resent you? Did I already ask how much time you have for this? If you're thinking about getting a lot more involved, have you talked this over with the rest of your family (significant other, especially)? This can be all-consuming if you let it, and some families wouldn't be able to support that. Who is the pack's sponsor (Charter Organization)? Are they involved with the pack or are they out to lunch? What is your relationship to the sponsoring group? The quick answer is, find a better pack. THat might be the right answer for you if you just want your son to have a good experience, and/or you don't have a personal stake in keeping this pack from dying, and/or you don't have the time, inclination, skills, or support to stay and help improve things. I hope you'll stick around for a bit and let us know what you decide to do. And good scouting to you.

Assign your original assistant to duties that are more background work. Assign your new assistant to duties that are more hands-on. Or, ask them to take alternating meetings, or something along those lines. From what you write, your first assistant may be one who will burn out completely if you insist on her doing more than she's willing or comfortable or interested in doing. Better to find a way to utilize the time she can give, than to turn her off completely and have her boy quit.

Ah, ok, I get it. He had a duck, as in "he had a cow." I was thinking something like, he had a rubber ducky on the table and threw it at you??? Twocub, you had better practice your mind-reading skills. Clearly, they're not up to par for your council's expectations.

" Our district Eagle board representative had a duck" Wait, what? Confused here... CNY, I write letters of rec all the time. I practically never get three or four weeks' advance notice. A few days is usually what I have to work with. This should not present a problem. Just encourage your son to politely follows up with his listed references to make sure they have not forgotten, lost the form in a pile of papers, accidentally lined the bird cage with it, etc. If he explains that this is a matter of some urgency, it shouldn't be hard for people to comply. After all, one hopes he chose people who actaully LIKE him, and would be happy to see him make eagle. They have a stake in helping him out a little bit by getting their letters in, in a timely manner. Good luck to him. I can only imagine that in a couple of years time, it might be me in this position, biting my nails while not-yet-Eagle-son keeps me wondering till the bitter end whether he's going to do it or not.

Yeah, I dunno about the digital stuff. My impression of training along those lines is that it gets dated so quickly that it is next to useless. Also, that the presenter had better know what she or he is talking about and be on top of the technology in question, or else they lose all credibility. (All of us know that guy or gal in our district who hardly knows how to use email - had better hope they're not the one doing the new communications/technology presentation!) I realize not all people have jobs where they work with communications technology. But then I also kinda think that anybody who ventures into the world of facebook, twitter, or just email distribution groups ought to be bright enough to figure out how to use them before dumping a bunch of personal stuff in there. If they are not, I am not convinced that one session in Wood Badge is likely going to help them much, anyway. About including youth in adult leader training - seems strange to me. As if it is an attempt to stretch a program to include people it was never intended for, rather than create a training that would (perhaps more appropriately) meet the needs of those people. Combining the diversity presentations seems ok to me. I'll be more inclined to listen to it, though, when I see more evidence of acceptance of diverse people within the local scouting movement. From where I sit, practically everyone is the same race and religion. I know diversity can be thought of in other ways and I'm fine with that, but let's face the fact that scouting is largely a white middle class, primarily Christian organization, too. And (with a risk of veering into issues & politics territory), someone should make the BSA honchos aware that they sound hypocritical talking about the importance and benefits of diversity while prohibiting some types of people from joining their movement. Yeah, that's enough rambling for tonight.

We had a scout this spring/summer who was close to Eagle and his 18th birthday. He needed a couple of badges and a project. I'm a counselor for the badges (citizenship in community and communication). He told me he wanted to work on the badges. I went out of my way for a few months in the spring to make sure he knew when I was available and how to reach me. He didn't do anything. He chose to join the military. Had to get everything done before leaving for basic since he'd be 18 by the time he returned. Also had a new motivation since he'd get a bump in rank if he had Eagle in hand. So with maybe two weeks to go, he came to me. Didn't have everything done, but we met a couple of times and signed off on almost everything. He was lucky that I wasn't working just then, so I was pretty flexible with my schedule, except (as I'd told him a bunch of times), I was leaving the state for two weeks just before his birthday. If he needed my signature on a couple remaining items, I'd bend over backward to arrange to meet him, so long as it was before I left town. I offered to help him contact another counselor in case he wasn't going to be done before I left. I explained that I'd call the other counselor and smooth the way for him, if he wanted me to. He skipped out on our last meeting. I left the next day. He didn't answer my email or phone call inquiring whether he needed help contacting the other counselor. I still don't know, but I think he probably did not finish the badges. I'm puzzled, to be honest. I really think this fellow was a neat kid; I like him. Did he just really not care? Did he get too busy with preparation for boot camp? Did he not want help? Did he think that, because I was holding him to the letter of the requirements (just like everyone else), I was somehow working against him? What happened with him?! I was left thinking I'd gone too far in trying to help this young man, who wasn't bothered to show up or return messages. Maybe for the next foot dragger, I'll be less inclined to go out of my way to meet their last-minute needs.

There are a couple of, shall we say, challenging boys in my son's troop. If the PL got removed for every time one of these fellows got caught screwing around, nobody would be left to be PL. Also it would allow kids who aren't happy about the group's selection of PL to undermine the PL big time. Kicking out the PL for something that others in his patrol did (assuming he wasn't the ring leader) rewards the trouble maker who harbors a grudge against the PL. Really not a fair solution and can send the wrong message to kids, in my eyes. jblake's situation is different, but for the original poster, I hope someone talked the SM down a bit before he went and did something rash.

I'm sorry to hear your wife is sick, scoutldr. I wish her a speedy recovery, and wish you and the rest of your family good health too. My son's school has asked that any potentially sick kids not come to class. I work in a university and have asked the same of all my students. On the other hand, some of my son's teachers have such ridiculous make-up policies that missing a day of school on the mere suspicion of illness would be problematic. Doctors in our area are (by and large) not actually testing to confirm H1N1 any more. A large percentage of my own students lack health insurance and don't want to or cannot pay $60 to visit the campus health clinic where they'll be told that they probably have the flu that tests are not being performed. And not remarkably, large percentages of my students missed their first round of exams, claiming swine flu as the reason. Some of them are probably actually sick. I do think teachers, school nurses, and others who come into contact with vulnerable populations ought to be included in the early rounds of vaccinations, but what are we going to do. THere simply isn't enough vaccine to go around at this point in time. Again, I wish you and your family well. From your other posts, it has been evident that there's a lot of stress going on these days. I hope you'll be able to find the way to soak in the joy of your son's wedding, despite these challenging times.

I've never fully understood the out of state insurance thing either. On one hand, I can see an argument that it would increase competition among providers. On the other hand, I can see an argument that it would allow insurance companies to stampede to the state with the weakest regulatory controls on how they do business - much as was the case for credit card companies and banks in the 1990s - to the probable detriment of customers. OGE, you mention the issue of requiring legislators to read every word of every bill prior to signing it. I hear you. Here's another take on that matter though. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/22/AR2009092203473.html