Lisabob

The challenge I see with Bylaws is that they take on a life of their own and become like Kudzu. Once in place, you can't kill the dang things and they just keep growing. Then they present a tempting opening through which well-meaning, but overly-involved adults can tinker with the boys' program. When bylaws begin to rival the Scout Handbook in length and nobody reads (or follows) them except overzealous committee members, they become real problems. Boys do not join scouting to be weighed down by a ton of extra adult bylaws. They join for fun and adventure. If your bylaws get in the way of that, they've defeated the purpose. Just my thoughts on what I've seen happen.

bear dad, I no longer have a copy of the belt loop book handy, but my recollection was that there was an asterisk for the bb and archery loops that said they could only be earned at council or district events. Beyond the belt loops, the Shooting Sports guide puts restrictions more generally on cubs doing bb or archery. Again, it has been a couple of years since I had the books, but I think if you called your council office and inquired, they'd tell you the same thing. The general rules about being able to earn most belt loops with family or school or den/pack not withstanding, shooting sports are something different. I can't quote chapter and verse any more because I no longer have the books, but I am 99.99% sure that this is one rule that remains in effect today in cub scouting. Again, a good reason to get active in your local leader resource network (like Round Table), where you'll find people in your area who can show you the book and clarify for you the circumstances under which you can do shooting sports with cubs in your council. This is not a rule that I, personally, would bend, even though there are times when it might seem a little bit over the top. But I strongly encourage you to call your council, ask for the name and contact info of whoever does rangemaster training for cub events in your area, and call him or her to get the full story.

bear dad, 1. The BSA has strict rules about shooting sports and cub scouts. There's a booklet called something like "Shooting Sports Guide" that you can ask about when you do your next cub training, or that you may be able to get by asking for it at your council scout shop. I don't recall what it cost, or if you could buy it. I got mine back when I was a cub leader by doing Cub Scout Range Master training. (I ran the archery range at cub day camp. Best job in camp!) More useful to you is probably the Cub Scouts Academics and Sports Program Guide, which lists all the requirements for all the beltloops and pins. If you're going to spend $10 on a book of rules, I'd recommend this one instead. (I don't know what it actually costs anymore - been a few years since I last bought one - and the basic info can also be found online in various places for free. Here's a link to the material from that book, from a reputable and usually up-to-date site: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/CubScout/a-sindex.asp ) The info given to you by NE-IV-88 Beaver is correct though; you are not supposed to do archery or bb guns in your back yard as a cub event, beltloop or no. 2. About the interpretations and "bending" the rules. Well this is where you get a lot of different opinions when you post to the web. To be honest though, I think Beavah's comment really wasn't asking you to BEND the rules. I think he was asking you to think more about how to take more control while staying within the rules. As in, don't wait for training to come to you - go ask for it, or go find a BALOO person from another nearby pack who will camp with you while you wait for the next BALOO training. Of course, it is hard to know what to ask for if you aren't aware of what exists "out there." That's where I, personally, have found this forum to be a huge help. It gives me a sense of what was possible and then I can pick the things I want to try to accomplish locally. By the way, AKdenldr gave you some good ideas!

bear dad, I want to thank you for putting in all the time you have, to get the program up and running for your den and pack. It isn't easy under the best circumstances and can be darn hard when you get little to no support from the council folks. Couple of thoughts: 1) There are a ton of people on this forum with a lot of scouting experience, who are willing to be resources to you. Ask a lot of questions and you'll get a lot of answers here (and opinions, some of which you might like better than others, but hey - that's just how it is) 2) You might get more cub-specific help by posting in the Cub Scouts forum. 3) If you are not already going to your district round table (monthly leader meetings for folks from all different packs and troops in the district), you might want to go to the next one. It is a good way to get to know folks in your area who have a lot of knowledge about the way your district operates. If nothing else, you'll get connected to some committed scout leaders who can be good local resources to you. 4) THere are some online trainings available for cub leaders. Have you done any of those already? If not, I'm sure somebody here can provide the link to those for you.

bear dad, what sort of location do you hold your den meetings at? I understand icy roads etc (heck I live in the north) but there can still be ways to get outdoors without risking life and limb. But yeah, if the kid really and truly doesn't want to be in scouting, dad will only be able to keep him in for so long.

Find some other things the boys can do in den meetings that might eventually lead up to camping. I don't have the bear book handy but look for any outdoorsy things. Hiking, cooking over a fire, dump cake in a dutch oven, building a fire, do some geo caching/waypoints, go fishing, etc. Team up with a local nature center to do some simple conservation or clean up projects. Just get the kids outside some! There is always the challenge of hanging on to the avid outdoors kids, in a setting where some kids probably don't even own a sleeping bag, let alone have camping experience. It might truly be that cub scouting, or your pack's cub scout program, is not a good fit for this particular boy if what he is looking for is a monthly wilderness camp out. Most cubs do not do a whole lot of camping (some don't do any) and when they do, it is often not terribly rugged style of camping. So do be honest and up front about what you can, and can't do in your program. But also keep looking for other ways to provide fun, new, challenging activities to a wide range of kids. In other words, maybe there are other ways to hook the kid on scouting besides just camping (maybe you need to build in some new challenges by the end of the bear year).

Three qualities that I think are absolutely essential for a good SM are basic faith in the abilities of teenage boys to do things for themselves, a great deal of calmness and patience to allow the boys to learn and stumble and pick themselves back up and keep trying, and good communication skills. All the rest can be learned or taught, as long as they're willing to invest the time to learn it. It certainly is also important to have some outdoor skills, or at least be committed to developing those skills, because the boys need to learn from someone, somewhere, and an SM who can't camp will hold the boys back. But the best outdoorsman or -woman in the world might still be a lousy SM if he or she lacks the basic temperament. I have seen a couple of SMs who were very enthusiastic, loved scouting, and had strong outdoor skills, but who lacked the patience to let the boys learn to lead or did not believe boys really could be independent. This resulted in those adults stepping in and taking over. I have seen some others who could not share their vision and could not mentor effectively because they couldn't communicate well (often these people also talk A LOT without actually saying anything!). Sometimes I wondered whether they even knew what they were trying to say, themselves. So those are the key traits I'd look for. Oh, and they had better actually like teens, and a good sense of humor help, too.

Yes, Eamonn, I think he is just about that much of a mother hen. Good guy, whom I trust. And my son is 15, old enough to know how to take care of himself and to have gotten over the allergy to washing that a lot of younger boys seem to have. I think he'd be mortified if I attempted to advise him about chafing though! Thanks to you and SR540Beaver for enlightening me on this matter.

Key point: you don't necessarily have to lose either. But some approaches will greatly increase the likelihood of losing both.

OK you all have me wondering! Is this really any worse a problem (the thread subject, not the hiking around camp) than it would be at any typical week of summer camp?

That might, indeed, rectify the specific problem of the CM expecting the boys to memorize the oath, law, motto, and slogan in 4th grade (rather than in 5th grade). It would almost certainly also cause other problems, including the possible loss of the CM, a lot of uproar among the other adults involved, and potential disruption of the entire pack program if the CO gets seriously disgusted with adult antics. THis is an issue of growing pains for a small pack with a bunch of new members, and it requires some fairly moderate adjustment in mind sets and approaches by the few long-time leaders in the group. Nuclear options will probably cause more problems than they solve. People need to pick their battles and their tactics, sometimes.

Isn't the juggling of parents really more on the Committee Chair side of things? This assumes that the CC and SM are on the same page, of course.

We had a boy who forged MB cards and bribed summer camp MBCs to sign off on cards for which he had never done the class (or the work). This was about three years ago when he was Life rank and the troop ASPL. Additionally, the boy had major attitude issues, did not acquit himself well in his role as ASPL (but was not coached and was not removed), and (in my view) should never have made Life until these issues were addressed more adequately than they were. He did fulfill all of the tangible requirements for Eagle though - POR, MBs, project, time in rank. That boy recently passed his Eagle BOR, despite not being active in the troop (has attended events on rare occasions, and meetings on extremely rare occasions - like, I can count them on one hand) for the last two + years and thus, having shown no evidence of changes in his attitude. He has remained registered and went to Philmont with the council contingent last year. It is entirely possible that he grew up a lot in those two years and is a totally different young man now, than he was when he last was active with the troop. But if I were SM, I'd have expected to see evidence of this before signing his scout spirit requirement for Eagle. It isn't that I would want a strict attendance standard for advancement, but when he was last involved, his behavior was unsatisfactory, and so in order to change my view, I'd need to see him in action again for a little while. However, I am not the SM and it wasn't my call. We have two more boys, brothers, who are Life scouts approaching Eagle. Both have consistently had behavior and attitude problems. Again, I don't think either should be Life scouts, but they are. In my view, one of them ought to be asked to leave the troop, but it is unlikely to happen. I don't think either are ready to have the SM sign off on their scout spirit requirements. Doing so diminishes the respect and trust that other boys have in the adults and in the program. At this point, they haven't got the sign-off but I expect it will happen sometime this year. While I won't agree when it does happen, on the other hand, the current SM inherited these kids as Life scouts and it is also a challenge to change the troop's standards and expectations so late in the process. I understand the difficulties there. And again, I'm not the SM so it is easy for me to make an arm chair call.

While I agree that it is quite unusual for a couple of boys to hold all the positions, I would want to ask a few other questions before deciding your son should transfer. 1. Other than this, how do your sons feel about the troop? If they are both happy, then leave them there. Advancement is only one part of scouting and not necessarily always going to take the upper hand. If one son is happy and the other isn't, consider moving the unhappy son, but I wouldn't do this until I was sure that the causes of unhappiness lay with the structure of the troop and could not be otherwise addressed, first. (And it is a logistical pain to have kids in two different troops - are you up for that?) If neither son is happy, look for a new scouting home. 2. Is your younger son really interested in holding a position at present? Maybe he isn't so keen on this and hasn't pushed to get one. Maybe that's why the positions are filled by a handful of boys - because no one else would do them. Consider whether the reason for your son's lack of position/advancement is the troop, or your son's level of interest. Going back to what I said, it isn't always bad for a kid to enjoy aspects of scouting besides advancement, but maybe he feels pressure from you or his brother or the troop to focus on advancement anyway, and this is a convenient excuse (I can't advance - they won't give me a position). 3. Consider having your son approach the SM to talk about some other ways of fulfilling the position requirement. Surely, there is SOMETHING left unclaimed by these other boys, even if it isn't a commonly used position (see the lists provided by other posters in this thread). If your son really wants it, he could approach the SM and volunteer for something. Have him make the case, rather than you making the case for him. 4. Please do not take this the wrong way - I don't know you or your son and I'm just brainstorming here - but could the SM have reason to think your son is not ready or capable of holding a position at the present time? I have known a few boys who had serious behavioral issues or discipline problems, who were turned down for positions as a result. Sometimes this was done to clearly let them know they needed to change their attitudes/behaviors if they expected to advance. I can easily imagine at least a few of these boys telling their parents "SM isn't letting me do anything!" as if the SM were playing favorites, when that wasn't the case at all. Of course it could be that the SM really does play favorites in your sons' troop, I don't know. In the absence of other info though, all of the above are possibilities too.

I like TwoCub's approach of WE and OUR. I also agree with Oak that this has the potential to be blown out of all proportion and cause larger problems than it will solve. From CNY's description this is a small pack that has recently undergone some growth, with a dedicated leader (that most people like?) who has been the stable force for the pack. A friendly conversation is one thing, and this CM is probably used to doing a lot of things himself, since he's been there a long time and it was a very small pack. That conversation might include some talk about ways to bring in and empower the newer den leaders by letting them do their job. Even though it is not the CM's place to be authorizing individual advancement or to add memorization to the Webelos requirements, a confrontational approach probably isn't going to be productive. Maybe a good compromise would be that the Webelos DL encourages all his boys to memorize the law, oath, motto, and slogan. After all they need to do it for AOL anyway, and they can turn this into a game of sorts. Let them show off to the CM, rather than "be tested by" the CM. Play it as a goal to reach for - something to get them excited about getting the CM to sign - instead of a scary big requirement. And then get the CM to sign for the AOL requirement and praise the heck out of the kid, when they accomplish it.

I sure hope your sister and BIL don't ever find these posts. I can only imagine what thanksgiving dinner at your family's table would be like then. Look, you obviously have different parenting styles and agendas. You don't agree with theirs. Not knowing them, I can't really say much else about them (or you) as parents, in terms of who has their priorities on straight and who does not. For all we know, maybe they have other activities that they share with their son and for which you have no interest or use. Maybe scouts really just is not their thing. Or, maybe they are lousy parents who can't find the time of day for their kid. Either way, you have to balance your family commitment with the level of annoyance that you, personally, can stand. If you can include your nephew with an open heart, great. Lots of kids have wonderful relations with their aunts and uncles (different from the relations with their parents) and years from now, he will remember this with gratitude. If you will always be irritated and begrudging his own parents for putting you in this position though, then maybe you shouldn't do it. Sure, the kid would benefit from scouting. But he'd pick up on your dissatisfaction with the situation and the tension between you and his parents. It wouldn't be nice for the kid to be in the middle of that. If that's the case, find some other avenues of interaction for you and your nephew, where this adult tension won't spoil the relationship. There are many more avenues for building good family relationships than just through cub scouts. Maybe see what your nephew likes and have some special thing that just you and he do together, instead. And besides, that way if he decides later on not to do scouting long-term, you'll still have other shared bonds.

"We have a couple families (not single parent) that the mom comes on family campouts and dad stays home. Not that he's working, he just doesn't like camping / outdoors, so mom does it instead." OK this one struck a nerve a little. I know what you meant. It is very sad that some parents don't seem to actually want to spend time with their own children (if they don't, who do they think will want to do that?). On the other hand, some dads really DON'T like scouting and camping and outdoor stuff, and some moms really DO like that stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean that those dads are not part of their kids' lives. There are many other ways for dads and sons to connect than camping. To my mind, we should be happy that the kids have a parent who supports them. But some things are not for some people, gender roles aside. Scoutfish, I hope your B-I-L doesn't live nearby. Sometimes it is easier to deal with pain in the tail relatives when they live elsewhere. But it is a shame he feels that way. It won't be long before his kid doesn't want to waste his time doing things with his dad, either.

Do you personally know the other SM? If it was out of council, I think it might be the case that the other SM either felt less obligation to contact you, or that perhaps he had no idea who you are. I know that some of the local SMs do talk - but often it is because they know each other through district events, roundtables, and the local community.

3) Yes. 2) and 1) I know that some cub trainings have been updated recently, but I am pretty sure that there are no separate trainings for ADL vs. DL. My advice is, go to the training for the position you plan to hold next year. That allows you to spend some time this summer prepping for it (with good resources from training), and hit the ground running. If it won't be offered in your district or council before next fall, see whether there are any other districts or councils nearby that offer it sooner. Depending on where you live, this might even be easier for you. I know where I am, for years we were closer to the neighboring district's training sites than to our own (til we underwent redistricting!). THere is no rule saying you can only attend your own district or council training. Most of all, don't expect it to be, or make it into, something complicated. Keep it simple, make it fun (KISMIF). (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Dave, it sounds like you are the reasonable head in the bunch. Kudos for being able to maintain your restraint. But I think you guys are too nice. Here you are talking about how to handle next year. I guess I'd be thinking there won't be a next year. I'd tell this lady she is not welcome at pack or den events. Either the dad participates with the kid (and they behave themselves), or they find another pack. Who do you want to keep more - this problem family, or your other volunteers and pack members? I wonder what she'll be like when her son joins a troop?

Scoutfish has a good point. It is a very sad state of affairs, but it is almost always the kids who "pay" for the parents' inability to, well, parent. You cannot always protect other people's children from this sad fact of life, and if you try to, you will be a doormat for other people. Looking at the situation of your pack this particular year (given that you are rescuing a failing pack), it is reasonable to go to your DE and explain the situation. If you can neither retrieve the inventory nor collect the money, ask your DE to help find a way out. DE's have the ability to solve popcorn woes and don't take "no" for an answer. Put it this way to your DE: "We're reviving this pack and making you (DE) look good (by keeping units alive, which is a major measuring stick by which DE's keep their jobs). Now we need help." For future years, make sure you are very clear that parents are responsible for the inventory they sign out. But also, come up with a set plan in case people refuse to pay. One year, my son sold some Christmas wreaths to a community business man who reneged and then vanished. We were stuck holding a bill for quite a bit of money. My son (who was 7 at the time) learned an important business lesson - don't trust people who won't put their money where their mouth is - but it stinks to think that people would defraud small children like that. We made a point of letting people in the community know about this business owner's behavior though, and luckily the (local) business that supplied the wreaths helped us out. In future years, the pack insisted that every order pay up front for anything we sold. The long and short of it - plan for how you'll handle this in the future, but tell your DE you need help dealing with it right now. Good luck.

Sorry there, I really did not intend it to be a slap in the face. If it makes you feel better, that parent I mentioned (re: Merit Badges) was me, only nobody told me I was over-thinking things. I was so excited for my son, and thinking of how I would have loved doing a lot of those badges, and how some of them fit so well with his budding interests in science. I remember that I really thought I had his interests at heart, but as you say, it is easy to blur the line between guidance and taking over. (And while I'd like to think I learned something from that experience, it would have been better to avoid it.) We parents probably all go through this somehow or other. This is one of the things i find really useful about scouting, is getting perspectives from other parents traveling the same road. Sometimes, I even agree with them!

potato guns (and pringle can/tennis ball cannons, etc) are a lot of fun, but I agree with everybody so far - this is not a good cub scout activity. Too many little fellows to keep track of, too many opportunities for something to go wrong, too many problems. This is a great thing to do with your kid on your own, provided you pay attention to safety. But not with other people's kids in a group setting. Sorry.

Scoutfish, you are way over-thinking this. Just sit down with your son and let him decide what sounds exciting. Part of the point is to let him explore his own interests a bit. And if, half-way through, he decides he's not that interested in a topic after all, so what? He's in 3rd grade! This is the best time in his life to explore, with no particular consequences if he doesn't like or doesn't finish something. It isn't like you're investing a whole lot of time and money into pursuing these things. By the way - I know a parent who, when their son joined boy scouts, tried to do exactly what you're doing, only with merit badges. Heck there are about 120 of them and many sound exciting. This parent figured they'd help their son line up an array of "useful" merit badges to choose from. You know what? It didn't work. Badges that the boy *might* have pursued on his own (and who knows, might even have liked), he refused to do because his parent was making decisions and setting parameters for him. You have to let him make choices for himself, might as well let this be an opportunity to practice. Don't over think it.

Charlie, One of the good things about this is that, once an official uniform, always an official uniform. Your Tiger can wear that shirt til he outgrows it or it falls apart, if you/he want to (well - at any rate, through the entire cub scouts program - if it still fits him by the time he's ready for boy scouting, I'd be pretty surprised). The last time the cub uniform underwent fairly big changes (like moving to separate hats/neckers/slides for each rank), packs in this area mostly took a mixed approach. New scouts typically purchased the new items. Most older scouts kept wearing what they had until it needed replacing anyway. I would welcome a move toward a standard hat/necker/slide. Those things - esp. the hats and slides - are an unnecessary added cost and do not improve the program. MAYBE keep the separate neckers for easy identification of who is who, but even that is just a "maybe."