Lisabob

I completely understand your desire to find fun and worthwhile things for your son to do in the summers. That is not so much a problem, to my mind. The adventures he has had do sound wonderful. You ask whether AoL is an Eagle requirement. No, it is not. However, when a boy turns in Eagle paperwork it will list various dates on there, including when AoL was earned and when he joined the troop and when each boy scout rank was earned. In the situation you describe, this could be sort of a mess. While it might end up being a minor issue, this is a tangle that could have been avoided. You ask whether it is really not allowed for a boy to register both as a cub and a boy scout, because your son has physically done it. Well, you're right I'm sure, that your boy has done this. I venture to guess that the pack and troop are probably in separate BSA councils, and so they probably don't have a solid record keeping system to cross-reference this. He is probably a "cub" in one council data base, and a "boy scout" in the other. Even if the two units are in the same council, it is extremely common for councils to keep sloppy records. So is it physically possible? Yes, of course. But the program is still set up in such a way that boys are either cub scouts OR boy scouts, but not both at the same time. What you've done is found a loophole. It apparently works for you right now and that's your business at the end of the day. I wish you and your boy all the best in scouting, and in other aspects of life.

Go back a year or two on the adult memberships and see whether there are people who were active, but who have now dropped off the rosters. If they're people who you can work with, call them. Let them know that you have a role for them that doesn't require them to jump in with both feet again, but that is an occasional role. Play up that you know they have a lot of expertise and knowledge about scouting from their many years of activity (supposing this is true, of course). You understand they aren't able/willing to be unit leaders right now, but there are lots of other ways to be involved and serve scouting in their area. Like joining your expanded training team. I know that if someone called me with that pitch, I'd say yes.

Oops, somehow I missed that new question. Thanks for pointing that out. On that one, I have to say: why on earth did dad sign his kid up for a boy scout troop, knowing full well that junior is still in his cub scout pack at his other "home?" I admit I'm feeling a bit under the weather and maybe misunderstood something, but - really? Yes of course, boy scouts is fun. But all things in due time. Let the boy experience and enjoy his cub experience all for himself - don't rush him just because YOU wanted him to do something different. This conundrum was entirely avoidable and has been created by dad registering the boy in a boy scout troop while the boy still is a cub scout elsewhere. So: if I were now to give advice to "dad" it would be: quietly ask the troop to just hold off on the boy's formal registration with the troop (if it has not been actually submitted yet). Explain that there was an error, since the boy is still in cubs and won't be done with cubs until the upcoming Blue & Gold in ?February?. Ask if, between now and then, the boy might continue as a visiting guest to the troop, but not as a formal member. That also means any rank advancements in the troop need to wait until he is a formal member. This would allow the boy to enjoy the last of his time as a cub, and to earn his AoL. THEN he can register as a boy scout. To do otherwise puts him in a very difficult "in between" situation, and it is bound to create other problems down the road in terms of his advancement records. And I would also recommend: if the boy will continue on to join a troop in his other home (with mom), then you and mom need to figure out how to coordinate his activities and advancements with the two troops so that he isn't earning, say, Second Class in one troop before earning Tenderfoot in the other. It can be done, but it is going to require people to communicate openly and effectively with one another, for the boy's sake.

Since the original post was four years ago, I sort of doubt we're going to find out more about what happened. Slow day on the board?

Many packs around my area do that too. In fact, we used to when I was a cub leader. I have come to see things in a different light, though. Today, I would encourage you to think twice - three times - about doing this. While it is definitely convenient, it tends to lead to other logistical problems, such as: 1. Many den leaders rush to get done with their rank requirements by late January. 2. Over time, pack leaders tend to develop the (incorrect) belief that a rank badge *must* be earned by B&G. 3. Some boys and families end up being seriously pressured to "hurry up and finish your badge!" Which doesn't sit well for many folks and might turn off the boy to scouting. 4. What do you do when 6 of 7 boys have their badges at B&G, and the 7th doesn't? Tears over a badge at B&G are never good. 5. B&G is a celebration of scouting, not a "I got my badge!" night. 6. Lots of den leaders (and parents) assume that the cub year ends in March, right after the B&G where everybody gets their rank badges. After all, what's the point of staying? 7. What do you do with a boy who finished his rank in November (which is possible in legitimate circumstances)? Make him wait til FEBRUARY to get it? Not right. By then he'll have forgotten about half the stuff that made the badge meaningful to him when he earned it. All of the above are unintended consequences and some are obviously flat-out wrong, but they're very, very common in packs that award all rank badges at B&G.

If it were me, I'd turn over the MB scheduling to the youth leadership. THere's no reason, except adult controls, why the PLs can't help guide their patrol members' decisions about merit badge selections, and why one of the ASPLs couldn't do the actual data entry/registration/form filing to get the boys signed up with the camp. An aside: I am sure there are troops of 100+ out there who do a fantastic job of being youth-led. On the other hand, the larger the organization, usually the larger the bureaucracy that develops in order to make the organization work. More bureaucracy in scouting almost always means more adults running things. I kind of wonder whether large-scale troops are at a serious disadvantage when it comes to boy leadership?

That's our fault, too, Beavah. Maybe we ought to demand better from our leadership. Maybe we ought to learn more about the issues. Maybe we shouldn't be so easily duped into believing outlandish things about "those fiends" on the other side of the aisle. Maybe we should demand less flash, and more substance. But as you know, anybody who is a moderate, who does anything other than *talk* about compromises, who deals in (sort of mundane) realities rather than sensationalist and demagogic rhetoric, is putting a target on their backs for the next election cycle. Already, some influential conservative folks are talking about "targeting" their own party's moderates for the next electoral cycle. For me, I generally like divided government more than unified government. And I don't think the recently elected group of tea party-backed Repubs will be able to get much accomplished, since they're so unwilling to work together as a party must. By 2012, I think we'll see a lot more anger from American voters who don't know (and don't take the time to know) what's really going on in government, but just know they don't like it and want to blame SOMEONE. And maybe some new group will be able to tap into that anger to win the next election, too. But I don't think anger is a good governing strategy.

Too many kids are going to college who are not well prepared, or not especially interested, in finishing college. Not everybody has to go to college to lead a successful and happy life. And schools that accept anybody with a pulse, but that also have an abysmally low completion rate, are simply taking students' money from them. And colleges are suffering from "mission creep," too. I am confused about why my college now offers 4-year degrees in construction, airport security, airplane maintenance, and other more truly vocational areas. This is not to say these are softball programs - from all I see of what students do in them, they're not - but then, learning to be an electrician isn't simple, either, and people shouldn't need a 4-year college degree to do it. (As an aside, yes I understand why colleges do this - it is infinitely easier to market a degree in an applied field, than in, say, "classical studies". So really, this is a marketing thing. And also understandably, public colleges and universities that are being slowly but surely defunded by their state governments are looking for new revenue streams. Applied degrees are all the rage right now. Students sign up for them in droves. As someone who teaches in a traditional "liberal arts" discipline, I suppose I should be grateful about that. At least the money is streaming in from somewhere!)

Any time that the CO decides to do it, is an acceptable time to have a heart to heart that includes helping a leader identify other opportunities (ie, leave the pack). COs have wide latitude from the BSA to select their own leadership. And it is quite rare for "council" to do, or say, anything much about a CO's decision because the council does not own or run a unit - the CO does. So let her "tattle" because it likely won't make any difference, anyway. Having said that, you know what, she's right about some things you mention. You shouldn't be adding a time requirement to rank advancements if there isn't one built in by the BSA. If a boy earns his bobcat and his bear in the same month, there is nothing wrong with giving him both at the same pack meeting. It happens more often than you might expect. Lots of packs have den meetings on different nights. In fact, that's the norm in my neck of the woods. If I went back to being a DL and that wasn't the case, it would bug me, too. My schedule changes roughly every 4 months. Expecting me to commit to a common den meeting night for the full year would mean I'd have to decline to be a den leader at all for your pack. Aside from that, it means a parent with kids in more than one den has to make a tough choice - whose den to stick with that night? It means I, as a den leader, am going to be dealing with more chaos (more kids, more parents at the common location - sigh). It means I have to coordinate my every little plan to meet elsewhere with your leadership, which gets tedious. (I'm busy, you're busy, let's not make this too hard!) None of those would have made me a happy camper, back when I was a den leader. So I can sympathize with her on that. The logistics matter is different. If she's truly leaving the room a mess or something then that's something that needs to be discussed. But as your pack grows, you may find more people who, for whatever reason, don't want to or can't hold their den meetings in the same place/same time as everybody else. So maybe she has some good points that are just hard to see, because you don't get along. And maybe she also needs to be encouraged to look for a pack that better fits her needs and style. The two aren't mutually exclusive options.

What would concern me is the apparent attitude that the den leader seems to have toward the goal of the program. The goal is NOT to get a bunch of stuff. The goal is to provide a solid, fun, character-building program for the kids. The patches, beltloops, and other items they earn along the way are really just tokens, or possibly incentives. When the stuff becomes the purpose, then the program loses its value. Have a sit-down with you, her, the CM, and the UC. (You said already that the UC thinks she is short-changing the program). Firmly, yet politely, reiterate the purpose of your pack's program. Let her know that it is important for leaders in this pack to all be on the same page. Give her an opportunity to declare that she really isn't all that interested or that she doesn't see things in a similar way. Provide her some kind of graceful way out. Maybe she will take it. If not, then yes, I would be working to find a replacement who does subscribe to your pack leaders' philosophy about what the program should be. If you do the above, you also need to be ready for her to leave - possibly abruptly and loudly. Before you meet with her, make sure your pack leadership (CM, you as CC/COR, and your pack's UC-friend) have a plan for how you will calmly and graciously explain her probable departure to the rest of the pack (or at least, her den). No matter what she may say/do, be sure you (pack leadership) take the high road in any public communications so that you don't end up dragging everyone down into the muck. Also have a plan for who will step in to lead the den, both in the short term and in the longer term. Many parents dislike chaos and conflict. To the extent that you can minimize these during any transition period, you may be able to keep at least some of the boys in the den.

I'm leaning more toward Beavah on this one. We left a pack because the pack meetings were dull and boring, and consisted mainly of adults talking at each other and telling the boys to be quiet (B&G was no exception). And my son recently changed troops. In his previous troop, COH was my least-favorite event on the calendar (well, except committee meetings) because it was ALL about the adults with little opportunity for the boys to take ownership even if they tried to. I don't know if it was also my son's least-favorite troop activity, but it was always clear most of the boys were not enjoying themselves at COHs. Literally, sitting in rows of chairs lined up, facing the stage where a bunch of adults were blathering on and awarding each other - for hours at a time. BORING. Sure, give a quick "thanks to all who help make this pack/troop/crew/whatever work" thing, but DON'T spend the boys' time with elaborate adult award ceremonies or endless adult speeches. That's not what scouting is for, and they aren't who scouting is about.

Ah, Beavah, which BSA publication did that come from? I don't recall having ever read that policy anywhere. Might be I missed it, but might be you're mis-remembering, too? (on a side note, I agree it is typically 'preferable' not to have one adult answerable for, say, 12 kids!)

It is a shame that your WB course did not meet expectations. I'd be angry too, if the descriptions you've posted of your WB course had been the norm for me. On the other hand, your experience was atypical in many ways, judging from others' posts here. It would be a shame if one bad apple were allowed to ruin the barrel.

We used to do this for Blue & Gold desserts. We'd give the kids a theme to work with. We called it the "macho man cake bake" and emphasized that it would be great if the boys worked with a male family member or friend (if possible), just to give moms a break and model for the boys that "real men" cook, too. The only serious rule was that everything on the cake had to be edible (decorations included). The first year we did it, some folks were worried about how it would turn out, but the dads, grandpas, uncles, neighbors, cousins, big brothers, etc. had a BLAST with it and it became tradition. All those extended family/friends started attending the B&G, too - an added bonus in terms of building community and family. Our pack provided some sort of certificate to every boy who made a cake. We took lots of photos of boys and their cakes. We didn't make it a competition, so much as a chance to display your creativity and have some fun. We displayed the cakes all through the B&G banquet, then ate them at the end. The kids spent half of the night plotting for who was going to get a piece of which cake. We made sure that the support staff (janitors) at the school where we held the B&G got slices, too. There was seldom anything left over. All went away happy. The pack didn't have to pay for desserts (well, we provided ice cream). No tears.

At the start of our kids' bear year, the den leaders (married couple) decided that all the boys should have hiking staffs. Not 10 minutes later, they were "jousting" with them, playing "Robin Hood and Little John." Soon, the den leader and her husband were both bellowing at the kids and taking things away from them. I had to laugh. What did she and her husband THINK was going to happen? It was that predictable. (note, I'm a mom) This is not simply a gender issue. Sticks are fascinating for whatever reason. Parents are your first line of defense (in cub scouts) against really unsafe behavior and no, the kids should not be whacking each other in the face. But you (DL) aren't ever going to succeed in stopping all the kids from picking up sticks, in the first place. This is not to say you should abandon all standards, but just that you might need to consider whether your expectations are in line with what's reasonable. Everybody has different standards, and often, we don't realize this until we're in a group setting. Since you are the DL: In future, once you decide what you can/can't accept, it might help for you to let parents know at the start of your "adventure" what are the limits of acceptable behavior at that event. Also, how you want behavior monitored (is it each parent for their own kid, DL watches everyone, parents intervene with other people's kids, etc). This will also provide guidelines for those who tend to be overly cautious so that they're not always breathing down other people's necks. PS: It is GREAT that you got the boys/families out camping! Too many packs don't do much or any camping at all. Kudos to you. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

In a word - yes. I think there's a lot to be said for trusting your instinct, particularly if backed up by others who know the situation and whose opinions you trust (Lord of the Flies? yikes!). If it were me, I'd be looking around now. Your son might actively choose to stay with his current troop, in which case (if you can stand it) there is something to be said for biting your tongue. But it is really good to know what other options exist, and also for knowing when to pull the plug on a bad experience - if that's the way things are headed. Please, just don't let experiences with this one troop sour you, or your son, on scouting in general. There are a lot of other troops out there who probably do things differently. None of them will be "perfect" either, but several of them might be closer to what you and your son will want from a scout troop.

"I was just at a Commissioner's Course, and they spoke just a little about this situation with the Trial case lost and is up for appeal by the BSA, and how this is tearing a large hole in the BSA's image, and banking account." Uh, what's this a reference to? Scoutbox I know you are located in Switzerland so you may be getting your info through a different lens. But the BSA --- won --- the Dale case.

Look, I came here for an argument! (does that fit? seems to cover the whole I&P forum, sometimes)

General maxim: don't ask questions you don't really want answered. If you are not prepared to use the feedback in some constructive way, then you will only cause more problems by requesting the feedback. A better avenue for your situation might be to identify other people to be DLs and move this guy over to the pack committee. He really doesn't sound like a fabulous den leader. Then again, there are so many other jobs in a pack that he might be perfect for. Put him in charge of the popcorn sale next year (or whatever else). Find whatever graceful way out that you can, to get him out of the DL spot. Maybe "so and so is really interested in doing this and we'd love to give him/her the chance to be DL" or "you're so good at ___, we think you'd be an excellent popcorn kernal (or whatever)" or "we're hoping to bring along some parents of the younger boys so that we have more depth in our leadership corp." Or whatever you think will appeal to this guy's ego, in a sincere sort of a way. Doing this will require the coordinated effort of several folks in the pack (CM, CC, at a minimum). If this is just you as a lone voice, forget about it and just bite your tongue because you, alone, will not be able to make this happen.

I recently filled out transfer paperwork for my son to join a new troop. It has been several years since I last filled out a BSA membership form. I don't recall this being on the old forms. There's a blurb on the form about it, but really, it sounds silly. Especially for boys who are older than cub scouts. Do any of your units even notice whether or not a parent fills in the little circle promising to be an "active ScoutParent?" And if so, what does that qualify the parent to do, in your view? How would you treat a parent who does, vs. one who does not agree to that? It isn't the same as being a registered leader.

With both the CM and DL on board, this is somewhat more workable. Let me ask this, though: What does the boy still need to complete in order to earn his AoL? If there are a bunch of "with your den" requirements, then I think he needs to do those with his den. An unofficial "den" of one, led by you, isn't really fitting with the spirit of those requirements. And although it might solve a short-term problem, imagine the headaches it could cause if several of the other boys decide they want their own dens, too. Since the current DL is so adamant that the boy have someone there with him (and I agree that's neither reasonable nor necessary, when we are talking Webelos who are almost ready to join a troop), maybe you can offer to fill in for the boy's mom - or your older boy scout son might tag along as this boy's buddy, if DL is ok with that. That might allow the boy to continue in his own den, with the other boys, at least where den activities are required for completion of AoL requirements. If there are no more "with your den" requirements, then let the boy work individually (with you, your son, whoever) to finish up the requirements. Then you can offer to assist by going with the boy (and his mom?) to a meeting with the current DL where the boy shows the DL all he has been doing and gets HER sign-off on his book. Since in webelos, the DL can designate who "akela" is (doesn't always have to be the DL), it is also possible the current DL could just designate you as the boy's signatory for whatever is left. But again, the pressure from other families to do their own thing too, might be a good reason why the pack would not want to go in that direction. And the boy would miss out on any group activities that he'd otherwise have done "with his den."

I sort of like revisiting issues and questions. That's the way good campfire conversations often work anyway, you keep coming back to the same old things (only with a twist, often as not). Threads where all the responses are "Simpsons did it!" in nature are kinda boring, anyway. Pie...peach, please!

If I were the cubmaster, I wouldn't be happy about your proposed solution. It has the feel of undermining the pack although I know it isn't your intention. Also, while you know the boy, you can't be sure how he behaves around the DL and you haven't heard the DL's side of the story. So there may be some other things going on that you aren't aware of, too. It is one thing to chat with the mom about some general options that she has and then encourage her to work with the DL and CM to select an appropriate option for her son. (find another pack for a few months, cross over early, only attend a few remaining "required" things so the boy can get his AoL and move on, take some time off and rejoin as a boy scout without AoL, etc). It is another for you to offer to substitute for the registered pack leadership - that's what feels wrong to me, in this scenario.

"My question - would you count a hike for AoL troop outdoor activity if only the SM shows up? If only 1-2 scouts and the SM show up? " Yes. I'd bite my tongue, hold my nose, and sign. Consider that the requirements don't stipulate the number of boy scout troop members who have to participate in the activity. (On the other hand, I wouldn't be the one pushing boys to join a troop like you describe, either)

Ed - 1. Scout presents (fleshed out, detailed) project proposal to troop committee if approved at that level, then 2. Scout presents proposal to district committee if also approved at that level, then the scout can proceed to actually do the project. Mind you, I'm not complaining, judging, carping, etc. I was only a bit surprised about the second step because I remembered this as being purely a troop function. However, I can see where this additional step ensures some quality control across troops in the district.