Lisabob

3 weeks is a bit long for just a typical camping weekend trip, but the other changes make sense. Thank goodness this got taken away from regional offices because THAT was a nightmare, at least in central region. For those who live far away - there is always the USPS.

Each pack handles this issue differently, but I know of none who handle it quite as you have described. That is not meant as a criticism but more of an FYI. I see three issues: 1. Who pays to recharter boys who are just about to cross over? In many packs (and this is encouraged by our council professionals) the packs pay it, and then the boys simply transfer their registrations upon joining the troop. This is because, around here, boy scout troops recharter before cub scout packs, and so to do this the other way around would mean a boy would have a small window of time where he is neither chartered by the pack or the troop. (or, that the boy gets chartered by the troop before he actually crosses over from the pack, creating advancement record havoc) 2. Who pays for the awards/where does this money come from? From your post, you are saying it comes directly from the webelos, right? Not from the pack finances? And I hear your point about why should a Tiger family be paying for an AoL award. So let me ask - do you expect the W II families to pay for the B&G ceremony where you do their cross over? Do you make families at other rank levels pay directly for their son's other rank badges ("here's what that Tiger badge costs - please pay up?") ? If so, that's one thing. But I think your argument here isn't a solid one. Rather than "why should the pack pay for recognition of its members" maybe it should be "this is the pack's opportunity to recognize that some of its members have received Cub Scouting's highest award. When your turn comes, the pack will recognize you, too." Maybe the real problem is in how dues are allocated? If dues are $100/year, what part of that goes into the pack account, and what part of that are you putting into the boy's personal account? Maybe you need to increase the percentage that goes into the pack's awards budget. 3. If a boy has money in a scout account with the pack, does that money follow him to his new troop? Again here, different packs handle this differently. None of the packs my son was in had personal accounts. So even though, for three years running, he sold at least $1000 in popcorn and made considerable profit for the pack, as a W II when he left, all that money stayed with the pack. (Of course, our dues were considerably lower than yours, too, at about $30.) Some packs do transfer that money, or at least part of it. It sounds like you need a clearer policy on this so that no one is left wondering at the end of the day, and this would spare you at least one of the disagreements you are having with your COR right now. ---------- At the end of the day - the disagreements you are describing seem like they may be coming from a mutual misunderstanding. The COR may not fully appreciate the pack's history of financial issues, and so may see your actions as unreasonably tight-fisted. You may not fully appreciate the CO's views on how money OUGHT to be allocated. A friendly meeting, with the financial books on the table might help you both. The CO owns the organization - and its funding - so you will eventually "lose" if you really decide to butt heads on this. So it is worth figuring this out in an amicable manner.

Seattle, I think it is unfair to assume that the poster (or their troop) necessarily "did something" to cause this situation. While that could be the case, we simply cannot know that based on the info provided. Jumping to that conclusion - and jumping all over the original poster - is really not very helpful. So to the question: Can they do this? Well the CO of the pack probably could dictate who is welcome at the pack's events and meetings because the CO "owns" the pack. However, most COs I am aware of would not put up with the situation you are describing unless there is a lot more to the story (like your adults have a history of fisticuffs or something!) But in reality, there is some question about whether you want a showdown at the OK corral with this Cubmaster, if you show up and he tries to make you leave. That could devolve into a very public disagreement that would serve no one and would probably turn off a lot of folks to scouting, entirely. First - provide the parents of those boys a joining packet for your troop and get their paperwork nailed down ASAP - BEFORE B&G. This ensures that you really do have boys planning to join your troop, and so you have a good reason to want to be at the B&G. Second, I would suggest that you send the guy a letter - not an email, not a phone call, not an in-person conversation - in which you very politely indicate that your troop's presence has been requested by the families of some boys who will be joining your troop. State that you would like to honor this request. Ask him to convey to you how you can do that in a way that best supports his pack's plans for the evening, so that you can all work together for the good of the boys. Tell him that if you don't hear back from him by X date, you will assume that he would like you to attend and participate in the bridging ceremony, and that you will bring X number of people from your troop to do so (keep the number small and don't invite yourself to the dinner portion of the event, if there is one). Copy the parents of the boys who will be joining your troop, and the Unit Commissioner (if there is one) and the District Executive. And the institutional head of the CO that sponsors the pack (edited to add this) As for communication about troop activities going through the CM and the CM only, that's another issue for another day. Get through this Blue & Gold business first so as to provide the boys with a good (and hopefully, conflict-free) experience. But my general take is that CMs can try to dictate stuff like this, but they simply cannot make it stick. Free speech is a beautiful thing. And in a small town, there MUST be other ways to communicate that don't rely solely on the CM to spread the word. Good luck and take the high road.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

I agree with the general "get out and do more" sentiment. Get some of the report-writing stuff out of the requirements. Boys do not join cub scouts to write reports or make posters! Take the required beltloops out of the Webelos program. By the time the kids get to Webelos, most of them aren't excited about beltloops any more. They've been there, done that. Find other ways to incorporate material into the webelos activity badges that don't rely on earning (or re-earning, yuck) a beltloop. Citizenship and Fitness are really important, but those two Webelos activity badges as requirements in the same year (to earn Webelos rank) are deadly. Either revise the requirements to make them more bearable, or at least, make just ONE of the two a requirement to earn the Webelos badge and make the other a requirement for AoL instead. Revise or replace the Computers beltloop. In an age where 6 year olds have i-thingies (ipods, ipads, etc) with more capacity than several desktops I've owned in my adult life and computing is moving away from physical locations to a "cloud" approach, the requirements for this loop seem very outdated.

Can you clarify what kind of "active" behavior you are talking about? Is he just bouncing off the tent walls? Is he poking the other kid in the side all night long? Shining his flashlight in their eyes at 2am? Or is something else irritating the heck out of his den mates? Because it strikes me as kind of unusual that boys would go running for cover and parents would step in if it is just a matter of a kid with high energy levels. You may get better feedback if you can offer a little more detail about the behavior.

Are you telling me that parents are unable to read and comprehend the material in their child's TIGER handbook? Seriously, not up to it? I'm having a hard time swallowing that. Some parents do not want to discuss this sort of issue with a 6 year old. I can sympathize with that. Consequently I would take an approach similar to that described by Mrw1 earlier in the thread. There is no way in the world that I would instead choose to have that discussion with the child in place of his parents doing it.

I love(d) playing pick-up games of whatever was happening at the moment. I played league softball & various intermural sports through 7th or 8th grade. Also skiing, running, horseback riding, and more. I can't say I was real good at some of these, but I almost always enjoyed them.

Here's my Republican wish-list for 2012: Palin (sure, you betcha also too), Michelle Bachman, Christine O'Donnell, Ken Buck oh, please oh, please oh, please...

Here's another twist. In scouting, we teach by example. Do the adults in you unit feel a need to apologize to the scouts when the adults are clearly in the wrong or have hurt a scout's feelings? Because if not, then many of the boys will (perhaps rightly) see this as just another power game. Adults make boys apologize for stuff but don't hold themselves to the same standard. That doesn't teach people to have empathy or manners and it may reduce trust, respect, and sincerity all around.

While we're at it, let's just talk about "mouthy kids" and "problem children." Sure, some kids really are mouthy, bratty, ill-mannered, snots. Some have behavioral issues that would test the patience of a saint. If we stick to the "typical" kid though - one who has been raised with at least a bit of attention to manners, and one without major emotional or behavioral impairments - well, most kids do have their moments and deserve to be called up short when they misbehave. I am not advocating tolerance for unacceptable behavior. BUT: A lot of what gets labeled "mouthy" or "uncooperative" or "sullen" behavior among later teens is really a product of the way adults themselves treat those teens. Teens have a very strong sense of justice, truth, and fairness. Violate it at your peril. If adults act in ways that seem mercurial or hypocritical, then they will quickly lose the respect of those same teens. When kids know they are at a power disadvantage and can't do anything but endure what they perceive as grossly unjust treatment by adults who are "in charge" then they tend to respond in ways that are often inappropriate (mouthy, sullen, etc) but also, entirely predictable. People who don't get that or can't deal with it, probably shouldn't be front-line leaders in a youth program.

Oh now hold the fort here. Let's just take a moment before the thrashing continues. From what I read, this mom isn't so far out of line as all that. She is trying to make a situation work for her other kids. That's a pretty typical parental response. My guess is that it probably WON'T work given past history and I am more or less in agreement that it would probably be better for all if the family moved to a different troop. But that is much easier to see (and say) being on the outside. I know that my family tried for a long time to "make things work" with a troop that wasn't a good fit for my son. Partly it was a sense of loyalty, maybe partly our stubborn natures, maybe partly that we wanted to believe that (what we saw as) reason and common sense would prevail, and maybe partly that you just can't see clearly when you are in the thick of things. It took a really ugly incident and blow-ups among adults that spilled over to some nasty adult comments on my son's facebook page, before we really saw clearly that this was beyond the pale and not fixable. At that point, I'd have gladly let my son quit scouting entirely, but thankfully he had formed a relationship with the SM of another (not so nearby) troop via Jambo. He moved to that troop and scouting has become fun for him again. I should note that his new troop is a longer drive for us - and that's a significant downside - but we are making it work because their program is such a good fit for my son. Knowing this now, I wish we had made the move years ago. So I can sympathize. Sometimes people will go to great lengths to try to make things work, not seeing until much later that nothing is going to make it work, no matter what. And maybe that isn't even anyone's fault, it just is. As for the "if you really cared, YOU would go camping" business - there are lots of reasons I object to that, number one being that a LOT of boys really would prefer their mothers (or fathers) DIDN'T go camping with them. Short of a major behavior issue, I don't think this is a justifiable demand by the troop (or by other scouters). In this case, based on the posts I've read so far, the younger sons are being "punished" by the troop for the alleged actions of the older son - and I think that's baloney. Also, some parents truly can't handle the physical demands of camping, either, which is quite a different issue from "not caring" about their children. So before tossing that incendiary out there, let's just all take a breath. (With that said - 5scoutmom, based on what you have written, I really think your family would do better to find yourselves a different troop. This one probably isn't going to fit your needs anytime soon, and why would you want to expose your other children to the toxicity you've described? There are other troops out there. Find one.)

That's a good point. I know of many cub leaders who run very good cub programs, and who get ticked off real fast when some boy scout leader type makes the (arrogant) assumption that cubbies are just a holding period for the "real" program. I think a lot of folks who take that attitude also have not spent much time working with a good cub program.

For (b), how about maintaining healthy relationships between unit leaders and their COs? Some folks have these already; many more do not. COs that are "on paper only" tend to result in weak units that end up needing a lot more commissioner service. THough Beavah's thoughts about making the commissioner service functional also sound good to me.

Consider yourself fortunate, I suppose. There are a lot of packs that are so small, the challenge is to have meaningful DEN meetings. I guess you are on the other end of that spectrum. One thing to keep in mind is that the BSA divides Cubs into three distinct groupings: Tigers, Cubs (Wolf/Bear), Webelos. And the Wolf & Bear programs are set up in very similar ways. So it wouldn't be ideal to separate those guys. Then too, the Bears are itching to be Webelos (and Tigers think the Wolves are "big" kids, much admired). So you wouldn't really want to separate those groups. Not to mention the hassles for parents who have multiple kids in the pack, and/or leaders who wear multiple hats, or your CM and ACM(s). Would they be happy to come to more than one pack meeting? This could result in some new practical problems, just as it resolves some existing problems. (I also tend to agree w ScoutNut that it isn't really a pack meeting if not all the dens are included/invited.) Maybe there are some other ways to address the underlying issue. For example, maybe you can have some awards handed out at the den level, rather than the pack level.

Overall I have to agree with the notion that you'll get out of WB what you want to get out of it. Nothing will resonate with everyone and there are some parts of WB that I didn't find useful, but I am still glad I did it in 2003 - I learned a lot, it opened my eyes to some other possibilities in scouting, and I am still using it in various ways today. I know I am returning late to the party here but I have to comment on something ghermanno said a couple of days ago, about a Tiger DL who had completed WB but still didn't know much about how troops and packs function. My thoughts: 1. In order to take WB, one is supposed to have taken basic leader training for their position already. For a Tiger DL, they should have done cub leader training and therefore ought to have a clue about how a pack operates. But they very likely DON'T know about webelos to scout transition planning, because that's not part of the Tiger DL training. I would be more alarmed about a Webelos DL who had no idea about that, or a Scoutmaster who didn't understand about it (and that happens plenty). 2. I know a LOT of troop-level scouters and district/council folks who know next to nothing about cub scouting. Or worse, they think they do, but what they know is either out-dated and therefore wrong, or was never true to begin with. It is fair enough to expect a cub leader to have some clue about boy scouting (and Wood Badge helped me learn a whole lot, when I took it as a cub leader). But turn-around is fair play. I hope you hold your ASM Woodbadgers responsible for knowing details of how the Tiger program works, too.

Tempests in tea pots, like this one, result in the loss of otherwise-good volunteers and the reluctance of others to become volunteers. Folks who just wanted to help out a couple hours a week with a worthwhile kids program end up being accused of all sorts of calumny. Who needs the grief?!

"The more adults involved in the program the less complaints you will get about the program.. No matter how good you are at juggling 90 balls, if people are not part of the solution they have the time to sit back and point out the faults.. When they are part of the team, they are happier with the program they feel a part of.. " That's a really good point, and one that can be used without challenging anybody's egos. Increased "ownership" of the program by other parents will be a net win for the pack. Good luck!

I think that moving CO's should be approached with great caution. Sometimes it can be a good thing (and maybe Sctdad's case is an example), but sometimes it is inviting trouble over what would have been a relatively minor thing, otherwise. Maybe the current CO doesn't really want to be terribly involved but does want to have a scouting unit attached to their church as part of their community/youth outreach obligations. In that case, they may be unwilling to simply hand over the existing unit to another church in town. While the other church may indeed be able to provide more and better support, you could be causing friction by making that jump. And anyway, the grass is not always greener, hmm? Just as there is no "perfect" troop or pack, there probably is no "perfect" CO. Be aware that this could also look a lot like poaching! Members of the current CO/Church might wonder why the other church didn't just start their OWN unit, rather than taking a pre-existing one that already had a home. If you are a member of the other church, this counts for double. Moving COs causes a lot of upheaval, work, and time building (sometimes repairing) relationships, even when done under friendly terms. For me - I think the time for a change of COs is when there are major problems, not when you simply see some other group that might be marginally better.

It sounds like your current CC might benefit from setting up a defined role for himself in the coming year. He may be having trouble handing off to you and so he's having second thoughts about leaving at all. If you don't address this in some way, there will likely be continued lack of clarity about what your role is, and how you plan to do this job. So - pick out one or (maybe) two things that you think he does really well, and that you want him to continue doing. Then have a conversation with him about how you know he will be very supportive of you by giving you the chance to try some new things and incorporate some new people, but that you're grateful that he's still helping with just that one thing. Something like this might help: "I'm really hoping that you will be willing to channel your limited volunteer time into __activity X___. Won't it be nice to have just the one task/activity to focus on, instead of having to do it all? I'll be sure to check in with you from time to time to see how _activity X_ is going and if you need anything from me as CC." And then keep making your own plans for the following year in everything other than that one activity. One other thought - I've been part of a couple of volunteer organizations for a long time. One has a new president elected annually (generally, whoever doesn't say "not it" quick enough!), and sometimes I have found myself wondering how on earth the newbie will do the job. Yet they all survive and most manage to do pretty well. What I have learned from this is that everyone brings some kind of strength to the job, and it is better to focus on maximizing their strengths, than on comparing them (often critically) to their predecessor or worrying about their weaknesses too much. How did I learn this? Partly experience of course, and partly an off-hand comment somebody made to me about one of these newbie leaders. It was something to the effect that everybody might define the position and their priorities differently, but that each of our recent newbie presidents had brought an unexpected skill to the position, and had therefore been able to address problems that the previous leaders hadn't even really seen, let alone been prepared to handle. While I'm not exactly a fan of the "warm body" school of volunteer staffing, this did give me pause to think about how I interact with new folks in the organization - and as someone who tends to do a lot myself in order to make sure it is done right, this was valuable to me. It helped me feel ok about stepping back. Maybe the same kind of thing could happen for your current CC.

Take a closer look at those amber alerts. In nearly all cases, the child in question is thought to have been taken by someone who knows them.

So sorry to hear about how this is unraveling. Over the summer my son decided to leave his former troop after a long time of us both trying to make it work for him. Personally, I was so fed up by that point that I would have been fine with him quitting scouts if he had really wanted to, and that's saying quite a lot. Since then, he joined a different troop and things are great. His present troop operates quite differently and would never tolerate the kinds of negative attitudes & misbehaviors that were commonplace in his former troop. The whole atmosphere is different and suddenly, scouting is fun and even "cool" again for my son. How refreshing! Looking back, I wish we had helped him find this troop years ago, rather than trying to fit square pegs into round holes for so long. So make the move. I think you'll be glad you did, for all your boys' sakes.

Keep in mind that all of your leaders are volunteers. If a couple of them can't stand the sight of each other, but they both do their jobs well on their own, then consider that a victory and move on. You can't force these people to like each other and if you try to make them work together and they really don't want to, then they'll just quit on you. It isn't the Bear/Wolf den leaders' jobs to make sure the Webelos are having fun. Don't make it be their job. (It also isn't your job as CC) There's also a natural division between 2nd/3rd graders on one hand, and 4th/5th graders on the other hand. How many 5th graders are really going to want to attend a bunch of activities aimed at 2nd graders? I bet that there are things the older boys are doing that would actually be a lot of fun for the younger fellows, too. Are you also insisting that the Webelos den leaders reciprocate and open up their den activities to all the younger fellows? Bottom line: let the den leaders have their distinct programs and don't try to force them to coordinate den activities if they aren't interested. If there are a couple of things that you think really ought to be full pack activities, then consider that when your leadership does the planning for next year's pack calendar. At least that way, the people who agree to plan the activities know what they are signing up for.

I hope you did the same to her very early the next morning when you got up for breakfast at 6am! "Hello Mrs. Worrywort, I am just calling to let you know your son made it through the night last night."

Schools around here actually have a hard time dealing with the traffic hazard caused by all those parents driving their kids to school. Many of the schools were built in the 60s, are located in nice, safe, tree-lined neighborhoods with sidewalks and crossing guards. Yet the line of cars to drop off and pick up stretches down the street every day. Scouting story: Venture patrol goes on a hiking outing. Ratio of adults to kids is more than 1:1. It is June, decent weather, but a minor rain shower hits. This was just a little cloud burst, not a real storm. Adults insist that the boys stay not only within sight, but right next to the adults, so nothing bad could happen. Heck, they practically held the boys' hands the rest of the way. (story confirmed by several boys and a couple of the adults involved)

Many troops around here take December off, although they often have day activities, service projects, parties, regular meetings, CoHs, etc. So it isn't as though they aren't already busy. The issue in December is not the weather/snow/cold - it is people's already-packed family calendars. Squeezing in an activity that takes a couple hours, like any of the above, is easier than doing a whole weekend of camping. I'm sure there are some troops in the area who don't do a lot of winter camping, but both my son's former troop and his current troop do camp the rest of the winter, besides December. Realistically, in MI and other parts north, Oct-April are possible snow camping months. Either you teach the boys how to camp in cold weather, or you hardly camp much at all.