Lisabob

Thanks all, and yes John, makes sense. jet - I was asking about the process before the scout starts on a project (getting the project idea approved) - not the scoutmaster signature at the end.

Yeah, I guess I need to clarify what I'm asking about. What is new to me is the boy having to make a second (post-troop committee) formal presentation of his proposed project to the district committee, in order to get that district or council signature. This isn't something I recall ever hearing about before. Does anyone else do this? If so, how does it work out for you?

It has been a while (year or so) since I've paid much attention. Have expectations changed for how eagle projects are approved, prior to the start of the project? Used to be that it required troop committee approval and (I think) the signature of the SE, which in most cases was pro forma. Now I am hearing that there's a middle step where the boy presents his (committee-approved) project at the district level for approval, too. I can see good and bad about that. It is certainly a quality-control check on what troop committees are doing. Depending on the personalities on that district committee, it could be a bureaucratic hurdle - although on our district committee, that isn't something I'd be worried about right now. I had just not heard of this before. Is it new?

I saw a thing last night that made me happy. I dropped off my son for his first regular scout meeting with his new troop. Then I drove around town for a bit, looking for a place to hang out during the meeting (failed - it is a very small town). So back to the troop meeting place I went, hoping to sit very unobtrusively in the back and read my book. Raucous troop meeting is in full swing, adults are all well away from the boys, and before long, the boys are elbow deep in a box of rope with an older boy teaching them how to tie a knot they'll be using at an upcoming camp out. Happy boys, rope in hand, shouting out "I got it!" to the congratulations of their older troop-mates. At the end of the meeting, driving home, my (16 year old, Star Scout, former SPL) son says: hey mom, I actually learned something today. And wow, there are a bunch of outdoor skills I should probably brush up on because all these older guys in this troop actually know how to do this stuff. Sigh, happy.

I hope that the venture patrol idea works for you. I think that the lure of "high adventure" can work, but it has to be backed up, not only by the physical activities themselves, but also by a difference in how adults treat the older youth who are clamoring for that new adventure. I watched my son's troop set up a venture patrol to do "high adventure" activities, as a way to engage more older boys. At first, my son was very excited about it and even served as the PL for almost a year. And the venture patrol has done some fun things- scuba, horseback riding, week-long treks in northern MI, etc. I also watched that patrol lose the interest of the older boys (15-16-17) because it was heavily adult-run, to the point of not being fun. Adults sought boys' input but only in a nominal way - the real choices were made by adults, not youth. In fact, the adult: scout ratio on venture patrol outings has frequently been 1:1 or more, and the adults who go - nice people, mind you - also tend to need to be the ones in control of every decision. Most of the older boys bailed. My son complained that the venture patrol got more "adult attention" (not in a good way, in his view) than the new scout patrol. What's the point in that? The venture patrol still exists in that troop, and there are still 5-6 scouts involved. But most of those scouts are now 12-13, rather than 15-16-17. Lesson learned: it isn't just *what* you do, it is also *how* you do it, that will determine whether older boys are likely to stick with the program in any numbers.

I've been thinking about this lately, too. Seems to me that the needs and tastes of a lot of 11-13 year olds are quite different from the needs and tastes of older boys. Younger boys want, need, and sometimes even crave, direction. They typically lack the physical, emotional, and social skills to function well in a scouting environment unless somebody is actively teaching them. That someone might be "older boys" but in many cases, it is actually adults - perhaps because there's a paucity of older boys involved. But that becomes self-fulfilling, because older boys typically want, need, and crave independence, a chance to try out their wings, and opportunities to push themselves further without adults constantly telling them what to do. And adults, as we all know, often have a hard time backing off to give older boys that space. Wash, rinse, repeat.

hey moose, just don't beat yourself up too much. Despite all the discussion, it sounds as though your course was successful in the eyes of the participants - and that's ultimately the point. So you laugh about the craziness on your end of things, you learn a little about what you'll be doing differently "next time," and you start looking ahead to the spring IOLS course. Hang in there!

Around here there are many youth music programs that kids opt into. These are not for a grade, or graduation credit, or anything, except that the kids truly enjoy them. These are the equivalent of rec league sports in many ways. My son changed schools this year and can't participate in marching band in his new school during first semester. So he sought out his old band teacher to see about volunteering with his old band, at his old school, for nothing other than the pure joy of doing it. So, Thomas, there are plenty of non-school musical outlets and many kids (and adults) thoroughly enjoy them. Maybe you or your kids just aren't aware of them.

Let's look at this from the other angle, too. When I went through WB, I was the only cub leader in my patrol. Several of my patrol mates had never been involved with cubs at all, and others hadn't been involved with cubs in decades. What they "knew" about cub scouting was pretty thin and frequently incorrect. Heck, even half the WB staffers were disseminating blatantly wrong information about how cub scouts works, on many occasions. So yes, I learned a great deal about patrols and boy scouts, (and venturing too) and as a cub leader, a lot of that terminology was fairly novel for me. On the other hand, I'd like to think that the other course participants learned, re-learned, or maybe even unlearned some things about cub scouts, too. I do know that after WB, the two troops in my town who had people in the course were FAR more open to inviting our webelos to their events, trying to locate den chiefs, making contact between SM/ASMs and Cub leaders (WDLs especially), etc. Maybe WB isn't the place where this ought to happen, but it certainly WAS the place where it actually DID happen for many of us. And I think it enriched everybody's understanding.

OK moose, here's the deal. You are the CHAIR, not the DO-IT-ALL person and not the district training equipment quartermaster. As training chair, your job is fundamentally to organize and promote training. The only reason you might find yourself running a lot of trainings is because you don't have a deep training staff to support you. And since you only just began as training chair, that's understandable, but it needs to be your priority to change this, or you will burn out in a big way. Make a Wood Badge style ticket if that will help you identify real structural needs and find strategies for addressing them in a methodical manner. (I think you've done WB from my hazy memories of your other posts?) Start by thinking through what you can, or can't, actually manage. If you can only do something by seriously imposing on family members who love you too much to say no, then you really can't manage that something. (not more than once or twice, anyway) If you are wearing yourself out and letting other important commitments fall away so that you can pull off some training thing, then you really can't manage that training thing, either. Once you figure out what you can and can't manage, be firm and say NO to those that are unrealistic. Set some boundaries to protect yourself, and your loved ones, from horrible crash-and-burn personal downfall. In the short run that is very difficult if you are a "get it done" type (which is why you got tapped to be the training chair in the first place) but in the long run, you and your district will be better off if you can do this. Now about that coffee: HANDS OFF MY COFFEE! As a coffee-holic, frankly, I don't want somebody like you anywhere near my precious coffee supply. You won't make coffee worth drinking (no offense but there it is). Delegate the coffee selection, equipment procurement, and coffee making to somebody else. Trust me, the coffee drinkers in the crowd will understand and will probably thank you for not messing with their caffeine supply. While we're at it, no powdered coffee creamers! These are hideous and should not foul up what otherwise might be a decent mug of coffee.

We pushed boys life pretty hard in cub scouts, in part because we had a lot of families in the pack where the boys had some kind of learning disability that was linked to reading issues. Boys Life gave the families more opportunities to read together, and the kids seemed happy to pick up the magazine to read the jokes, etc. However, we didn't do the automatic subscription. I'd say about 1/3 to 1/2 of the pack families chose to subscribe. My son's first troop does automatic subscription. From what I can tell, the boys seem to continue reading it til about age 14, when they appear to lose interest. While my own son (older teen) loves to read, he rarely even opens BL anymore - it seems to have lost its appeal. On the other hand, he'll read Discovery or Popular Mechanic or other tech/science/exploration oriented magazines all day. At this point I wish he didn't get an automatic subscription to BL anymore because it has become mailbox clutter. I wonder if you'd get different answers if you asked your question in the cub scouts forum?

I can see where many of the critiques are coming from. On the other hand, I took the course as a cub leader, along with our pack's CM. Our experiences were key in revitalizing the pack, which had already pretty much collapsed when we stepped in. Both of our tickets focused on things that needed fixing in our pack, and that had a major impact. Perhaps we could have gotten the pack on its feet again without wood badge, but I sort of doubt it. Wood Badge made me re-evaluate what I knew about scouting. It provided me with a ready-made network of experienced and passionate scouters to draw upon as resources. It gave me new ideas about how to build a better pack program, how to find other quality adult leaders to keep the pack going, and how to integrate with area boy scout troops - none of which I had gotten from any of the cub leader trainings I had attended. So, although there may be flaws in the current WB approach (and maybe the course should have been renamed so as to avoid mis-perceptions about what it is, and isn't), I don't think that simply throwing out the cub leaders is necessarily the right answer, either.

You may need to provide more explicit guidance to your training staff. A checklist with "Here is what your position entails" kind of thing. Not just show up and do your 40 minute song and dance, but also a, b, c, and d. Also, it helps to have one "gopher helper" type on your training staff - somebody who you are not related to - who will just hang out and handle all the little stuff that was forgotten, overlooked, or just didn't work out as expected. A past course director can sometimes fill this role, depending on their personality and ego. You'd be surprised at how few people intuitively grasp all the very hard work that goes into prepping for and wrapping up a class (no matter the subject). People who get that probably are teachers, or have done it before, or are true gems who you need to recruit! As for everyone else, spell out everything you want them to do or it just won't get done.

Beavah, I feel I must respond and point out that I did NOT say I thought scouting should be "as available." In fact, I specifically said it should not become a drop-in sort of program. While you may take what I said however you want, I'd really prefer that you not twist it out of context like that. My point was that people should not try to force an either/or choice (as did the poster to whom I responded in the other thread) where kids can do scouts OR band, or scouts OR sports, but not both. I think that sells short the kids who participate at a reasonable level and enjoy and benefit from different types of activities. But privileging scouting above all else is not a good answer, in my mind. It fails to recognize that kids sometimes need other things, too.

I've never heard of that "texas has to approve it" thing before, so either someone was joking, or someone was seriously misinformed. Heck, I could hardly get my ticket counselor to even LOOK at my stuff - he said my word was really all he needed. Why don't you contact your counselor and ask him what happens next? And, congratulations! (now you can just create your own tickets for your continued involvement in scouting)

I really and truly do not see this as a one or the other choice. I was very involved in band and other forms of musical education through college. I also had a regular weekends and summers job working at a camp. There were occasional conflicts but not that many, and I'm thankful that my various band leaders and camp employers were willing to be somewhat flexible most of the time. I found a way to make both work, and I'm a happier and better person for having done so. I still play in various groups (and alone) today, and I'm still involved in and supportive of outdoor programs (such as scouts), too. We get angry when kids don't prioritize the way we want them to. Well maybe they simply don't have the same wants and needs as we do. I am not advocating that we be a drop-in organization and I know that this is unpopular in some circles but if we demand that kids put scouting above all other activities then a lot of kids will simply choose not to do scouting at all.

Also pay attention to cooking utensils. For some kids, simply sharing a serving spoon or spatula that has touched the offending item (peanut oil is in a lot of things) can be enough. Talk with the boy, mom, dad, and the Patrol Leader to make sure you all understand this boy's needs.

Right Barry, but probably you would have done that anyway. You didn't need a tip off from a previous scoutmaster to figure out that when a behavioral problem occurs, you should talk with the kid's parents about it.

I'd say keep out of it. If the scoutmaster of the new troop can't figure it out within a month then either the new SM is dense, or there isn't a problem. In either case, your "input" won't really change anything and amounts more to gossip than anything else. To those who say "well if we'd just known *that,* we could have avoided all this trouble..." let me ask you what you'd do if a new boy joined your troop and the former SM called you to let you know that he had a real problem with "johnny." So, are you going to prevent "johnny" from joining your troop? Because short of that, I don't see how you would have avoided much of anything. Let the boy's behavior **in your troop** be your guide to how you treat him. If he transfers to another troop, wish him well and facilitate the transfer of his records, then let him be.

I have no problem with programs like AHG. I think they serve a good purpose and engage kids in a positive way. I don't think they're a good partner for BSA though. While the faith requirement may only restrict adult membership, the reality is that there is still a heavily Christian element to the program. Again, I do not think that is a bad thing in and of itself. But, the BSA is a non-sectarian program. We have boys who are Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, Deists, etc. Not all are monotheists and certainly not all are Christian. Not to mention a fair number who don't belong to any specific religion. The religious element of the boy scout oath and law is very loosely interpreted by the BSA, itself. (Let's not get into whether that's a good thing - then this would become an issues & politics thread). Putting a program that is explicitly not Christian together with one that is explicitly Christian would create some real challenges at an institutional level. And while the dominant majority (Christian) might be open to people from minority religions attending, that's only because it is a one-way conversation where the majority viewpoint is privileged. Easy for the majority to accept that and welcome others into that framework. Harder to be the person from the minority perspective, in that situation. Maybe it would be less of a problem in small communities where practically everybody does belong to some flavor of the same basic religion but I can't see it working in more diverse settings.

It all sounds clear to me. From your various posts (here and in other threads) I get a strong sense that you do not want to be the CM right now. So don't be. It really is as simple as that, although it never seems so from the "inside." If you're feeling really guilty about it, offer to assist the pack with recruiting a good CM. Maybe there are some folks out there who don't even have boys in the pack, but who you know (from other connections) would do a great job. Grandparents are also potential sources. Bottom line is, it doesn't need to be YOU. And honestly, if you have a strong den program, you will keep most of your boys even if the pack program isn't as great. It absolutely does not work, the other way around.

The pack my son joined never did any camping at all! Now his webelos den did do some overnight camp outs (because camping is fun, and good preparation for boy scouts), but there were other years when other Webelos DLs were not so interested in taking their dens camping. AOL does NOT require a certain number of camp outs. Kindly let your CM know that he is incorrect about this. There are a lot of "urban legends" about AOL floating around so he probably picked up this one from a typically trustworthy source - and here's your opportunity to show him the book and gently re-educate him.

cheering from the sidelines! Great job, scoutfish! (bet you get a thank you letter from your district membership chair, too - or anyway, you should)

The cooking competition was maybe 3 (4?) years ago, now, in November. Check late summer/early fall issues? Could've been a back issue, though, or even one that the older cubs (webelos) get .

Part of youth leadership = discovering that one's decisions may cause unanticipated inconvenience to others, which, in turn, causes problems for the group members when they get home. One may hope that the youth who made these decisions will learn from that and not repeat it. You were inconvenienced, and that's a pain. If it becomes a regular occurrence then have a quiet conversation with the troop committee chair and/or scoutmaster about the problem. Ask the SM to convey to the boys the problems caused by the boys' planning style. If it is a one-time thing? Chalk it up to minor irritation and move on. As you know, there are worse things to deal with and at least the kids were doing something good.