Lisabob

Actually, it might be a violation of employment law to even make inquiries about someone's marital or family status in the interview process, let alone invite them to an interview event to see if they "pass muster." Aside from that, and I'm sure your little one is adorable, but c'mon, talk about adding stress to the event! Taking a 9 month old to a dinner meeting/interview/whatever at a nice restaurant with your spouse's (hopefully) future employers is brave.

That's great! I hope he (and you) continue to find a lot of fun in scouting as he moves into his adult role.

Signs sound positive and I hope all works out to your satisfaction! (About that dinner - seems very strange to invite one's spouse and children to an interview event, especially with a very young child in tow.)

Let's separate out some strands from this discussion. On one hand we have questions about the content of the course. I don't think there's a lot of mystique about that anymore. People who want to know what is covered (and what isn't) can find out, either by asking people who have gone through the current course, or by asking staffers, or by spending a few minutes with google. On the other hand is the question of marketing. I have noticed that there are a LOT of things that get marketed poorly by local volunteers. FOS, popcorn sales, WB, practically any district or council program, you name it. Apparently very few of us have careers as marketing execs because the pitches at RT for all of this stuff are reliably, routinely, awful. As a matter of fact I can be very impatient when I think my time is being wasted. And so I try to stay away from a lot of the places where that's likely to happen (RT being one, sometimes!). So I'm sympathetic to what SeattlePioneer is saying. However, it is useful to step back and ask: am I objecting to the content, or just to the form?

OK I have this question (though I know better, but still...) If the database system council is using is truly as bad as all that, why in the world doesn't some bright light somewhere say "You know, we're just going to keep the MBC list in an excel format!" Seriously. It isn't as though there are not spreadsheets and databases out there that work, that are widely available, and that nearly everyone already knows how to use.

Well to answer Sctdad's original question (are you still here, Sctdad?): it will only be worth it if you think it will be worth it. People who don't want to do it or who don't like the very idea of the course will probably find it not worthwhile & should focus their time, money and energy elsewhere. WB (21stC or otherwise) is not a magic bullet, and it is not a requirement for good service to scouting.

I don't think I'm "leading the charge" on this, Seattle. Lots of other scouters I know, and others on this forum, have said the same basic thing. Some troops I'm familiar with actually discourage boys from taking the "win all you can" approach to merit badges, particularly at summer camp, and I'm happy about that. Does it matter in the big picture? Maybe not. Does it matter locally? Yeah, I think it does. For example, I've got a boy in scouting. He and I have talked about this topic because he's had some particularly awful summer camp and MBU experiences. As a result, he's decided to earn most of his MBs the old-fashioned way, working with a counselor who he contacts on his own, rather than in "classes." So although he has earned his shooting sports MBs and a couple of others at camps over the years, nearly all of the rest were done individually. He has convinced a couple of his friends to do the same. So yeah, that matters to me. And it still would, even if I wasn't his mom. (of course a side-effect is that he doesn't have 85 merit badges, but so what? At least he can tell you what he did to earn each one that he has.) And this is not a separate issue from the T-2-1 requirements. Too many programs, at summer camp or elsewhere, make those ridiculously easy (devoid of meaning or content), too. Different skills, but same issue.

Hold on 'fish, I understand Schiff's point. I tried to recruit a MBC from outside of scouting not too long ago. Great guy, good with kids, would be a real asset. Til he heard about all the stuff scouting expects him to do, just so kids can earn a badge. Turned him off. Outsiders to scouting may not always fully understand or buy the process. I also agree that the whole process is a mess in a lot of councils and we need more than just a bunch of scouters who are already in up to our eyeballs to do this. BUT, Schiff, at this point in time we have so few MBCs who counsel outside their own troop that even having each of us counsel ONE badge for the whole council would be a significant improvement. And I agree with you that people should pick badges for which they actually know what they're talking about. But with 124 to choose from, there must be something! By the way - I really want to encourage you to make your services available to the whole council. I promise you, your phone isn't going to ring off the hook, but that one kid in some other troop who really wants to do plumbing (or whatever) probably won't ever call you at all, if you're listed as "just for this troop" MBC. Besides, having kids from multiple troops is actually fun. It gives you an insight into how different troops works and it builds your network of scouter friends, too.

I don't think there's as much a mystique, as a sense of camaraderie. But that's just me. If a person really wants to, they can find just about every detail of WB online, including the course syllabus. And anyone who attempts to convince a person to take WB primarily based on "mystique" is an idiot.

In a bunch of different threads people are talking about the difficulty of getting good MB counselors and how the MB process in a lot of places has devolved into "classes" and requirements get pencil whipped, rather than the traditional process of a boy working with a counselor at an individual level. OK. True. So who are our best resources to help fix this? We are! I challenge each and every one of you, whether in cubs, boy scouts, venturing, non-scouter/lurker, whatever - contact your council and register to be a MBC for at least one badge. Make your MBC services available to the FULL council, not just one troop. If there's a reason that you really can't sign up, then recruit another adult to sign up, instead. Then do the job, and do it well. In the thread this was spun off from, ScoutNut posted links to the 124 merit badges and explanation of what being a MBC means. Check it out! Then, report back here: what badge(s) did you sign up to counsel?

I don't know what Beavah's answer would be, but I personally would find the "what summer camps typically do" standard to be depressingly low. Seattle, you've been around the block a time or two. I'm sure you've seen the very poor quality of MB instruction that takes place at many summer camps, especially once you get beyond the more physical badges (like shooting sports, which tend to be done better than many others in my experience). I do teach college classes in some of the same areas as some of the MBs I have counseled. I don't make those MBs into mini college courses because most of the kids are not ready for that level of depth and besides, that's not the point of the MBs. But for the kids who want more depth or who want to explore certain aspects of the subject, we can certainly go there. I guess I'd like to think, though, that there's a balancing point. It doesn't need to be mini college, but it shouldn't be the kind of useless pencil whipping that happens at camps too often (and frequently turns off kids to otherwise fascinating topics), either.

'fish, did you know there is a plumbing MB? A few others that seem like possible good fits, based on your description: canoeing, motor boating, sailing, first aid, emergency preparedness, fire safety. Don't know how you are with cars but there's an automotive mechanics MB too. Then there are the ones like family life, where there might be a bunch of folks already, but it can't hurt to have another one on the list. (seems like a lot of moms do that one - my son flat-out told me he'd never do that badge with a female MBC no matter who it was). If you do sign up (go for it!), I hope you'll agree to make your services available to the whole council and not just one troop.

Thomas, I disagree. I think this is very much about relationships. You can have the most webelos-friendly program in town and if people don't like/trust/know you well, they still aren't going to join you. (Not to mention, having that sort of program would probably mean losing other boys who don't want Webelos III) As it is your program sounds pretty good - like a boy scout troop should be - but you aren't able to "sell" your program because you don't have strong relationships with the prospective buyers. In fact, what you're saying sounds to me like you are blaming the buyers for not purchasing your product.

In this situation I don't think a formulaic list of steps in the MB process is really what you need (and besides, you already know the process and, I bet, so does your SPL). What you need is a conversation with the young man about good communication. If the boy had come to you prior to the event and said "I'm planning to go and I want to work on the architecture and landscaping MBs" you probably wouldn't have forbid it, would you? You might have talked with him about making sure he's getting a quality experience, and about what paperwork you need to verify the completed badges (ie, blue cards). You might have warned him about the typical shortcomings of this sort of MB program and asked to see who the MB counselors would be. You might have looked at the requirements together with the boy to see whether it is even possible to complete them over a weekend (maybe it is, I don't know & didn't look) So really, the issue isn't merely that he went & worked on MBs - it is that he didn't communicate his intentions very effectively before-hand, and he hasn't provided you with a clear picture of what he did to earn these, after the fact, either. A paper like you describe wouldn't fly as a replacement for a "blue card" in very many places, I wouldn't think. You can still have the conversation with the boy about whether he completed the requirements as listed, and whether he feels he is ready to receive these badges. But the larger picture is, especially as SPL, he should understand how important it is for everybody to be on the same page about what's happening and what people's intentions and expectations are, and how to properly follow-up on something to close the loop. And by the way, maybe he went to the event thinking he was only going to be staffing, and decided once he got there to also do the MBs (maybe "everybody was doing them"). That's another angle to the conversation.

Ok I think we're all in agreement that this is not the way the program describes the SPL being chosen. Most of us also probably agree that this is not a very good idea. My question is: why on earth would the adults WANT to do this? They're inserting themselves into a situation where they're not needed, and no matter what they do, they're bound to cause tensions. How is this a good thing for anyone? (being realistic, I agree with several others that you'll have a time changing this, especially as "the new guy" in the group. And I wonder, what other interesting twists has this group of adults put on the scouting program?)

My son's former troop tried this two ways. 1. We announced the event and offered transportation & to coordinate registration. After a very poor experience, the troop moved to 2. We announced the event. Once. Anyone who wanted to go could, but the troop didn't go out of their way to make it happen. A couple of families still attended but most did not. Don't know what (if anything) my son's current troop will do when the annual MBU comes up again. To my mind, it is not worth announcing at all.

Sometimes that can go the other way, too. Sometimes the "popular" boy is not the one elected - the one who wants to actually do the job is elected. And then the "popular" boy (or his parents & their friends) start putting up a fuss about how the election wasn't fair or the boy who is trying to actually do the job isn't meeting their standards, etc. Under those conditions, any talk of re-dos seems to be sour grapes, plain and simple. If the boy is struggling (but trying) with the job and others complain, then I like qwaze's question: "How are you going to help him be a better SPL?" If the boys truly elected a poor choice, then I also like: "How will you choose differently, next time around?"

I can understand your frustration. Let me ask you a question, though. What does your troop do to work with the pack on a regular basis? Do you provide den chiefs? Do you have any adults who offer to work with the pack on outdoor activities? Do you strong (or really, any) relationships with pack leadership, den leaders in particular? Does the pack and troop do any service or community projects together? What I'm thinking is that there's a disconnect here. The pack isn't closely tied to the troop and the troop isn't effectively communicating its ideals to the pack. That problem is a two-way street and not a matter of blaming anybody. But if they don't know you well then they are less likely to feel comfortable trusting your vision & ideals. And if the den leaders, especially, don't know you, then they can't be good advocates to their den parents for what your troop is all about. I think the DL is the single most influential person in the transition process. So if I were in your shoes, I might do the following: 1. Get to know the WOLF & BEAR den leaders right now. Focus on building a strong relationship with them so that in a couple of years, you'll have a better shot at recruiting those boys into your troop. 2. If you aren't already, start encouraging den chiefs from your troop to the pack. That will probably include supporting the pack in terms of how to effectively use the den chiefs to everyone's benefit (most pack leaders probably won't know quite how to do this). 3. Pack & Troop leadership might work together to see if you can find a couple of tangible activities where the troop can lend a hand to the pack, or where troop & pack can do something together. Webelos recruiting is hard. Ideally, it should be an on-going process and not a couple of weekends, an open house, and a cross-over ceremony.

He'd find himself uninvited in a hurry. It is crass to show up for someone else's celebration and then start soliciting without permission.

Some outdoor stores will rent you a pack/other gear for a weekend, usually for a reasonable price. This is a good way to try out a couple of different styles or brands without breaking the bank. In fact, my son bought his pack this way - he rented one and when he went to take it back, they told him they were getting rid of some of their rental stock and did he just want to keep it for the cost of the rental. Was a good deal! The other thing I recall from when he was just starting out is that a lot of folks recommended external frame packs for the smaller guys. I think the idea was that it is easier to adjust as the kid grows. Others here can probably comment more on that. Check the "equipment reviews & discussion" in the Camping & High Adventure part of this forum, too. Lots of helpful info in there. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

My son's current troop collects monthly dues. $3/month. They turn in their $ to the scribe (via their patrol) and they get a receipt back. If boys don't pay up then they are charged when recharter time rolls around. They collect money for the following year, so this works out ok (boys are paying $3/month toward next recharter). His old troop did not - they just collected a lump sum in September, which usually meant I wrote a check. We've only been with this troop for maybe 6 months now so I have limited exposure to this system. Initial thought is that it is more work and depends greatly on how well the scribe keeps records. But I like it! I've noticed three things: 1. My son actually pays attention and remembers to take his own money to pay dues, rather than me reminding him to turn in my check. 2. It gives the scribe a real job to do and keeps adults at arms-length (lots of discussions, here and offline, about whether the scribe position is a legitimate one - in this troop, it is) 3. It is a reminder that boy scouting is not about finding the most efficient way for adults to administer a program, but rather, about finding ways to expand the boys' roles in their own program.

Sounds good, and if you are offering to split profit with council, they are unlikely to get too upset. Just be clear about where the donations are going. If people are donating because they think the donation will be used to send Johnny to camp, but in reality, half the donation is going to council, they might be upset if they find that out. So something like "all proceeds used to support local scouting" may be better than "send our pack to summer camp!" Alternately - let the profits all go to the pack. Don't specify to council that you plan to split the profits 50/50 (or at all) and instead, have the pack write a check to council (for whatever you feel is appropriate, within your pack's means) at the end of the budget year or during FOS. Same outcome, arguably makes your fundraising pitch simpler though because all proceeds from that fundraiser really do go to the pack. Might want to check around with parents who have older kids, too - what other kid groups do they know of who sell candy bars, and when? For example, around here the little league baseball kids have a lock on early spring candy sales, starting just about the time when girl scout cookie sales end. To the extent that it can be avoided, you don't want to have kids selling the exact same thing for both scouts & baseball, at the same time!

Several scout troops in this area sell bottled water (and some sell pop) at community events like parades, festivals, summer concerts on the town square, etc. It seems to go well for them. I'm sure that, in addition to filling out the BSA unit fundraising application, you would need to get in touch with the event organizers to see about doing something like this. But I don't see any particular harm in it. One thing that would be nice - if you are selling bottled/canned anything, provide receptacles for the bottle/can to be recycled, too. (And if you're selling something with a recycling deposit, like pop cans, then you make money on both ends)

Oak Tree says: "It's fun to be around enthusiastic people." This sums up my feeling about being involved as a scouter at any level, and was one of the things I most enjoyed about WB. When cynicism or negativity or smothering overprotection or turf wars or "its different and different = bad!" take over, then I find myself wondering why I'm there. The best scout units I've seen, everybody is having fun and people (youth & adult) are enthusiastic about what they're doing and why they're involved in scouts, at least most of the time.

OK so it might have been nice to see some district or council folks at the heroism award presentation, I guess. Specifically, what else do you want to see? Where do you feel that your troop's program would be improved,if you had more support from your council? What would that support look like? Keep in mind, council/district are not supposed to provide program or leadership to your unit. The main things district or council typically provide are typically information (training, timely info about events/opportunities), advice when asked (UCs), and facilities (summer camps, etc.). Councils also provide a clearing house for paperwork (tour plans, recharter, etc). I know there are additional items that some districts and councils may offer, but I think these are the biggies that most units would see. So what is your council not doing, that you would like to see, in order to improve your troop's experience?