Lisabob

our...what now?

"More recent WB21C students tell themselves they are superior to Pre2000 WB students, since this is what they were told." Maybe that is the attitude in some places? Happily, it isn't one I've run into in the roughly 10 years that I've been involved in my current location. I suspect this is a reflection of local cliques & local attitudes.

Larry - thanks for the info. If the issue comes up again, I'll remember to let scouters know about what you've written. Seattle, I'm sorry you appear to have reached that conclusion, although I don't see how you got there. This thread is 3 1/2 years old, but as the original poster, let me tell you - the scouter in question had NO interest in "punching" his "BSA ticket." He had a good deal of interest in being well prepared to help the troop participate in climbing activities. As for me, I simply had an interest in helping him identify the training that is required, and also other resources available, so he could do this. As I recall, as a result of this thread, one of the regular forum posters then helped me put the scouter in question into contact with a couple of local climbing folks, which worked out just fine (and thank you again to that poster). Frankly, I think you've jumped to the wrong conclusion on this one.

in cash?

You know what I love about scouter.com? I love that people here know the answer to questions like this, and even have opinions about what kind of whipped creme/topping makes the best pies. Thank you all, you have made my day.

I agree that this is a key time to include your CO, because any actions that will be taken, would likely be taken in the CO's name (since they own your pack). At a minimum, the CO should not be in the dark when it comes to a point where the pack wants legal actions taken against somebody. As for the dad in question - I'm sure he does have a million "reasons" why, and it could either be that he's a cheat and a liar, or that he actually cannot pay you and doesn't know what to do about it. The latter sounds like something that could be worked out (payment plan, very quietly dealt with by the pack leadership) to the benefit of all. In the current economic climate, it isn't impossible to imagine people who never thought they'd be in such straits, not knowing what to do about it.

I got in trouble with my son's former troop (adults) about a year after he joined. The adults had a planning/vision thing conference that I attended. They started talking about how the troop would be doing this/that/the other and delegating adults to make it happen. I (silly me) piped up with "hey, what about the boys? How come we are doing all this stuff - how about we help THEM learn to do it?" and I got a bunch of stunned looks in return. Almost with an air of embarrassment (for me, not for themselves), a couple of adults started explained: "well, that's not possible, you know. Boys can't actually PLAN all these events - we do all that for them - their job is just to run the details AT the events." So that day, I learned that the boundaries of "boy led" in that particular group did not include planning for any events.

That's awful. People who are too spineless to meet and discuss concerns face to face with the person in question and who would rather hide their actions, have no place in a youth program that is all about integrity. Stosh I'm sorry to hear it worked out like this. And I agree with John - you ought to be talking with the SE, because a DE who meddles in troop affairs like this is bound to cause all sorts of grief.

Call your CC. Why wait until Tuesday?

Beavah - events have overtaken us. Reports as of about 20 minutes ago are that Mubarak has resigned.

You know, Kamelian, if I had a dime for every arrogant boy scout troop leader who assumed that those dumb cubby leaders don't know a darn thing about scouting (let alone, about their own program), and a dime for every time the afore-mentioned boy scout leader was WRONG about some aspect of the cub program, I'd be able to take a nice vacation somewhere warm right now. Be aware - you are coming across like that. It might be you're completely right about the pack, I don't know. But if you treat them like this in the real world, then it is not too surprising to me that they don't give you the time of day and that they encourage their boys to look at other (friendlier?) troops, instead of yours. Might be, you want to examine why you feel such a need to try to take over the cub pack. Might be, your efforts would be better spent improving your own unit, first. (edited for spleling, ergh)(This message has been edited by lisabob)(This message has been edited by lisabob)

I'm not Beavah and I'm sure he'll speak for himself (though with that funny rodent accent, I'm not sure if we'll understand him!). But there is something to what he's saying about agency. Seattle - if you look at the process for choosing unit volunteers, the CO plays a crucial role - they sign off on adult volunteer applications. This is where the CO is giving their approval to that individual to act as an agent of the CO - saying "yes, you can be a leader for our scout unit." The CO also has the right - at any time, for just about any reason - to remove a volunteer from a leadership position. Why? Because, as Beavah points out, we as leaders are agents for the CO. We work for them. This is why the COR position is (at least on paper) a very important one in any unit. It is the main way that the CO exercises its influence over the program in its units. The breakdown for me is that many COs are so out of the loop that they simply do not know who their volunteers are, what is happening with the program, etc. Many CORs are on-paper-only, some are actually appointed by the unit committee itself for the simple convenience of getting things signed within a reasonable time frame. Or COs who sign leadership paperwork on people they've never even met. That's ok I guess, if the CO has a strong relationship with the SM/CM and CC (who can be trusted by the CO to screen adult volunteers for all other positions), but when the CO doesn't even know those folks, it becomes problematic. And many COs seem happy to have this minimal relationship. Which works fine for a lot of units, until all of a sudden it doesn't. Then they have an irritated CO that doesn't understand why they are being dragged into the mess, and irritated volunteers who don't understand why a hands-off CO is all the sudden "dictating" to them, and often dictating in ways that maybe don't make a lot of sense on the ground because the CO has been so far removed for so long. Some COs would rather dump their scout units, than deal with a mess, which is bad for all involved. But Beavah is right that, at least in a technical sense, volunteers are agents of the CO they "work" for. And that's true even if the volunteers themselves don't know it. But then, nobody should expect robust agency in a situation where the CO doesn't know its agents, and the agents don't realize their own agency. John-in-KC - you're right, there's a difference between badly behaving leaders, and leaders who just don't know each other, and who, therefore, don't give each other the time of day. But the latter could be misperceived as the former, too. In my previous example, the pack in question had been funneling their boys to a different troop (different CO) for years, actively encouraging their boys to go to that troop. Their "brother" troop with the same CO might have easily perceived that as malice. And I don't think an otherwise uninvolved CO is likely to fix the latter problem easily, but intentionally building personal relationships across units could.

A couple of summers ago, an SPL-to-be opted to attend NYLT. The NYLT program was very well done, the boy learned a lot (and had fun), and came back itching to put into practice some of what he had learned. He was the first boy from his troop to participate in NYLT. Although the SM encouraged him to attend and the troop even paid most of the cost, in reality, the troop did not buy into or practice much of what was taught. It resulted in a year of frustration on both ends, because the two sides - SPL and adult leaders - now had very different ideas about how a troop ought to be organized, what boy-led means, how patrols should function, etc. At the end of the year, the SPL decided to go find a different troop, partly because of this frustration(and partly for other reasons). Probably, some adult leaders were glad to see him go by that point. Unfortunately, it didn't leave a very good taste in anyone's mouths. I wonder whether that troop sent their next SPL to NYLT? I'm sort of doubting it. I can easily imagine the same thing happening with some sort of district TLT. Every troop does some things in their own way, has their own spin on "boy led." Some troops might be flat-out wrong, but having a couple of their youth leaders attend a district TLT probably won't change that - it will simply result in confusion and tension. Troops should run their own TLTs so they can pass along their own version of "how it works." A Scoutmaster who isn't willing or interested in doing that should probably step aside, or at least find an ASM who can do it and who is on the same page as the SM in terms of what youth leadership looks like, for that particular troop. (By the way, I'm not knocking NYLT. And my son, the SPL described above, really did learn a lot while having fun. But in terms of actually leading his troop, it just wasn't the direction his troop was going in at the time.)

pchadbo - the thing about the "value" argument is that people rarely stop long enough to hear about how 70% of the cost of popcorn stays in the state/council/yada yada. In order to make that particular pitch, you need to first hook the customer. At $10 or more entry level cost, it becomes difficult to get the person's attention for long enough to hook them. Eagle92 - you asked about incentives for boy scouts/crews to sell popcorn. Our council has (had?) such an incentive. Boys who sold a certain amount could get a discount on some summer programs that same year. Problem is, the summer programs were NOT summer camp (we didn't run a summer camp program in our council); they were for a T-2-1 long weekend or "trail to Eagle" seminar. Two problems. 1) Boring! and 2) not applicable to all scouts Last summer, our council re-established a summer camp program for the first time in many years, so MAYBE they'll offer a real incentive on camp fees in the future.

Well forget about the game and the anthem. What about the commercials? My favorite - the Chrysler one about Detroit. Or was it the Detroit one about Chrysler? All denizens of all kindred rust-belt cities who are tired of getting knocked about in the media on a weekly basis should stand up and cheer for that one. Yeah!

For a while I lived in a Scandinavian country where they take their patriotism seriously, but in rather different ways than we do. For one thing, they don't sing a national anthem at every turn (and in fact there is friendly, if a bit disinterested, disagreement about which of two songs is the actual national anthem). For another, the flag, while proudly displayed, is not a near-sacred object. And over-the-top displays or pronouncements of patriotism would be viewed with distaste. No chanting "we're #1!" or anything like that. Not that these people don't/didn't love their country, they just expressed it in different ways. They're much more likely to take quiet pride in their country and its achievements (except when it comes to football - by which I mean soccer - but even then, they actually have a nickname for their fans, which translates as the "calm-igans" as opposed to those rowdy British hooligans (sorry, Eamonn!) ) Sometimes I do think we could stand to take a small dose of their more laid back approach, when it comes to flag waving and chest thumping. OGE - I didn't get the Declaration thing, either. I mean, it is nice that they all could read despite the high rate of head injuries in football??? But appropriating important American history and symbols (and using the military too) for a commercial sporting event did seem kind of weird. Then again, maybe this is another mass socialization thing. We barely teach American history anymore in schools, thanks to NCLB (no time! got to do reading/math drills!) so perhaps they figured this was a good opportunity to expose people to one of our core documents?

I never expected to be a scouter. I got involved as a leader because of a pack in disarray. We joined a pack when my son was a Wolf. The pack itself wasn't the draw - the den was. He loved his den, they did fun things, were very close-knit and made my son's difficult move to a new town & school much easier (ready-made friends). But he really hated pack meetings, which were boring beyond belief (basically, adults talking at each other and telling the boys to hold still). So at the end of the year, the entire den moved to a different pack that had a reputation for a much more active pack program. Well...yes, but.... turns out, that new pack was in the midst of a leadership crisis. The Tiger den went through 4 or 5 leaders in 2 months and we lost all but 2 of them. The Wolf den leader was nuts and we lost all but 1 of them. The Webelos dens were more like parents social clubs and hardly any of them crossed over to boy scouts (or they vanished, even if they did formally cross over). Most of the committee positions were on-paper only. The CO was completely uninvolved, to the point where the pack was choosing the COR for the CO, using the "warm body" method of volunteer selection. There were lots of little incidents, but things culminated at Pinewood, where parents got into screaming matches with each other over the results (which *were* incorrect, but still!) and one of the den leaders challenged the CM to a fist fight in front of the scouts. Sigh. That's how I also met a whole bunch of district folks, in the aftermath. CM quit, Den Leader quit. Lots of families left. The pack looked like it might collapse. CO threatened to drop the pack, on advice from the crazy COR whom the pack itself had selected! I felt like there weren't many other options, so I, my husband, and a couple of others stepped up. Two of us (me and another DL) went to all the training we could get, including Wood Badge. We came back from that experience determined to build up the pack, and we did. I don't know what our lowest #s were because there had been a bunch of "on paper only" scouts to begin with, and then more who left after the Pinewood melt-down but were still technically registered, but I'd guess at one point we probably had only 10 scouts or so. Within a year we had about 40 scouts and at the time my son's den crossed over, we had close to 60 scouts. All dens had trained leaders, the pack had a real committee, there was a trained CM and some ACMs, and the CO knew we existed again, this time for positive reasons. Unfortunately, we didn't do as good a job at building up a sustainable leadership model as we might have. After the core group of us moved on, the pack declined to about 18 scouts over the last couple of years (also hampered by a reorganization of the school district that made recruiting more difficult for this pack). But at least they still exist!

A while back, I was working with a pack that was struggling to recruit leaders and was in danger of folding. Despite having a good recruiting base in an area where scouting is popular, they were having a hard time getting adult leaders to step forward. I happened to know that their CO also sponsored a troop in town, and that the troop was large, active, and had a lot of extra adults hanging around. So one of the first things I asked was "what about asking the troop for help?" And I also went to the troop to request that they lend a hand. I sure got an earful about how disconnected the pack and troop were. On one side, pack leaders kept telling me how the troop was never around for them, didn't respond to requests for help/den chiefs, etc., didn't invite their webelos to events, and so on. On the other side, I mostly got "we have a brother pack????" None of the adult leaders knew each other, across the pack/troop divide. Happily, the pack was able to recruit some new leaders (though not from the troop) and the troop also started inviting the pack to do some joint activities, webelos campouts, etc. Several boys from the pack crossed over into the troop and for the last few years, those cross-over parents have helped to strengthen and maintain ties between the units. What's the point here? Personal relationships matter more than having a CO in common. In both cases, the pack and troop relations with the CO were practically non-existent (and that was how the CO wanted things). Many leaders in both units weren't even sure who their CO is/was (the CO since folded - I'm not aware of any efforts to relocate the pack & troop so that they could both be sponsored by the same new CO). Maybe that's an extreme example, but actually I don't think it is. I can name a BUNCH of units where leaders, themselves, are barely aware of their CO (esp. at the cub level where parents aren't as familiar with the BSA structure and just want to lend a hand with Johnny's den) and have no idea whether the CO also sponsors other BSA units. Expecting leaders to feel special warmth toward another unit in a whole different part of the BSA program just because they share a CO on paper, seems naive. Now if it is an active COR in a small organization (say, a church, where most of the unit members are also CO members and they see each other in both a scouting & CO context frequently, like Scout Sunday) then matters could be different - but we shouldn't assume that's necessarily the case.

Maybe so, Eagle, in which case let me apologize for any misunderstanding. But even if you are generalizing to a wider public, where does your impression come from? It doesn't seem to match with what I'm hearing people (even off the forum) say. I haven't heard any news reports that basically said "cool...she flubbed it" or "those fidgety players behaved appropriately" or anything like that? Then again, I also don't watch much TV so it is entirely possible that I just missed it. I just am kind of wondering if this isn't becoming a "kids these days!" kind of a thing? Easy to get worked up about, even though most people actually agree with you?

Eagle007, what on this thread gave you the impression that people don't "give a flying rip for our country?" That is not the impression I am getting as I read through these comments, so maybe it is a matter of interpretation. But the impression I'm getting is that people are, by and large, agreeing with you - while also recognizing that performers are human too, and honest mistakes (while unfortunate) do happen. I also see no one here taking the side of the fidgety football players. And I also wonder, a la acco, why do we start sporting events w/ the national anthem, anyway? It does seem a bit strange, now you mention it. Continuing attempts at mass political socialization? But then again...if you want to conduct an interesting examination of social behavior, go to the local HS football game and watch how people respond to the anthem. I've noticed the response in such a setting is actually a great deal more respectful than one might find at larger public events, and people even SING.

Supposing the boy comes from a non-Christian faith, I think it is reasonable for a parent to say "nope, not for us" to a group that is in the midst of very public, very Christian, prayer. If you are, say, a born-again Christian, how would it feel to go to an organization where they started/ended every meeting with a prayer to someone else's deity? It might rub you the wrong way. And before people jump all over me (or this family), let's keep in mind that the general public doesn't view the BSA as a religious org - they view the BSA as a youth program (rightly so, in my view, but that's an issue for the I&P forum). And many cub packs are silent on religious matters, except for delegating to parents that the kids should complete the religious requirements for rank at home. So it is completely possible for a boy & parents to make it through Webelos (and so, to own the uniform, etc already, Eng!) without running into the pro-Christian flavor that is present in some units. Also, most parents aren't very aware of the CO, even if it is a church. Unless the troop is actually meeting in a church? How would they know?

Sometimes I do get a little annoyed at all the "glamourization" of the anthem. And yes I think she might have gotten the words right, would've been nice. On the other hand, I do a lot of public speaking in my day job and have had moments where some very strange things have come out of my mouth - just thankful it wasn't on tape/in front of millions of people. But at least it wasn't RoseAnn Barr! (do you all remember that one?) An aside - having grown up on the border, I always thought that every sporting event and public occasion started with both the US and Canadian national anthems. I got so used to it that it seemed strange and incomplete to hear just the American anthem by itself. And frankly, I like the Canadian one better because I (and most people) can actually sing it!

With regard to the question of loyalty to one's CO: well, I suppose it depends a great deal on the nature of the relationship with that CO. In my experience with scouting, I've seen very few COs who had any sort of clue (or, frankly, who seemed to care) about the units they nominally sponsored. I know that's not reality everywhere, but it certainly is reality in lots of places. When the CO does nothing more than sign the paper once a year, doesn't even really meet the standard in the charter agreement, doesn't even know who the unit's leaders are (let alone, help select them), doesn't want to know about the unit's problems (one got annoyed when a problem occurred and threatened to just drop the unit, rather than becoming involved on any level), won't participate or attend any unit activities - even the celebrations - isn't supportive of the program, sees the unit as a nuisance, or uses the unit simply as a fundraiser for the CO, etc. - then why would people expect much loyalty from the youth in the program to the CO? Heck, if the parents and boys do not even know who their CO is, loyalty is not even on the table for discussion.

What is the recommended dutch oven recipe for this critter?

Yup. Based on that, I wouldn't count on them being around for very long. In fact it would not surprise me if some (or all) of them never show up for a single meeting after cross-over. So your single best shot at selling them may very well be at the B&G. Have the scouts who attend from your troop talk up whatever cool/fun things you do, and go out of their way to include the new guys (encourage them not to just sit around talking to each other). You, meanwhile, will need to sound out their parents. But in my experience, an attitude as casual as this means the parents (at least - maybe also the boys) have more or less already made up their mind that boy scouts isn't going to be their thing. Still, you have to give it a shot. Even if none of the boys actually joins your troop, consider the neckers, etc. and investment in your on-going relationship with the pack as a whole. And get to know the current Wolf/Bear/Webelos I den leaders while you're at the B&G!